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bots with no gc


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#41 aredhel

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 01:18 PM

[..] and not 40+ items where there's only 36 slots, and I've seen such bots [...]


It just looks so very pr0 and awesome if you buy an "UNLIMITED" number of an item that costs 5kgc or even 100kgc

This ties in with remarks elsewhere about bots listing ridiculous prices (in today's market) in their wanted lists.


I guess such bots are rather frowned upon, it makes the "inv"/"wanted" lists longer than necessary, and the person who accidentally or stupidly sells/buys those items will feel cheated upon.

Another issue - in this case, applies to Dogbreath's item search (which is really kewl btw)
Bots that ARE NOT online should not be listed!

Edit: This matter is being taken care of, there was an issue at a different stage, thanks for looking Sir Odie !

Edited by aredhel, 15 November 2011 - 10:33 AM.


#42 themuntdregger

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 08:39 PM

Lots of things to love about EL; bots being one of them. They are a great feature, all the more because you can code your own. However, I roughly agree with Aislinn, ie there should be some kind of code standard... (might I even say rules ?)

Maybe a good case for suggesting that the EL server should collect, collate and publish bot info. If the latter is csv, mysql or whatever, there's still plenty of scope for third party query engines, plus its so much easier and quicker to implement. Maybe also extend that to the in-game players list ?

#43 revi

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 07:10 AM

There are rules for bots (and their code) already: here...

As for the official server collecting bot data: bots have always been a player activity, why should the official server want to
deal with that? Also, how would you assure that the data is reliable, and won't be used to try and gain illegal access to the server?
(not saying it can be done that way, but why should the official server take the risk?). And that's assuming the bot owners provide
data in the correct format (which is already not easy between professionals, btw).

We'll not dwell on that such a system would require yet another scraping of the bot servers every so often (Learner said
something about 15 min intervals). So you propose putting an extra charge on ALL servers concerned for ... (yeah, for what exactly?)

#44 LongMustache

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 07:56 AM

This is just so wrong. Just in nordcarn there are at least 10 bots who cannot buy what they claim they are buying. You have something you wanna sell and you have to run from bot to bot checking if they have enough money.

On top of that most of those bots without money have their prices set at highest, both buying and selling prices. People, who sell on channels usually take account of the bots price (actually its the main source of info for prices). You want to buy something and the guy says "man bot buys for x, yet u pay x-y, why should i sell to you", even tho several top-pricing bots dont have any money to pay for the stuff.

And you cannot just trade what you sell for what they have usually, because their "selling" prices are set very high.

Owners should be made to monitor their bots and keep them updated. or at least if they are too lazy to monitor, then should make that extra line with available GC and should NOT be permitted to advertise stuff.

Edited by Helklo, 20 December 2011 - 07:57 AM.


#45 roman_gruber

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 09:43 AM

Nice Summary, I fully agree. Hoax bots, with no cash. I had it recently too. Top price, no cash for buying.

#46 themuntdregger

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 10:24 PM

There are rules for bots (and their code) already: here...

Yup, I'm aware there are already rules for bots, but they largely relate to how bots are used rather than how they are coded.

Certain bots features can have both legal and illegal use, and its not always possible to code against the latter. Hence, it seems entirely sensible to have a set of rules governing how bots are used. However, where its possible to code compliance with the rules into a bot, its obviously more effective than relying on user compliance. Hence, why it makes makes sense to have an entirely different set of rules (lets call it a 'code standard') to cover how bots should be coded.

A code standard might have other potential benefits if it enables bots to be more cooperative and efficient on matters like providing information to market query engines, or other data providers.

As for the official server collecting bot data: bots have always been a player activity, why should the official server want to deal with that? Also, how would you assure that the data is reliable, and won't be used to try and gain illegal access to the server? (not saying it can be done that way, but why should the official server take the risk?). And that's assuming the bot owners provide
data in the correct format (which is already not easy between professionals, btw).


Using the el server to collect and distribute bot data would certainly remove the need for a whole lot of scraping (in-game and from outside). If you expose the raw data via a web server, can't see how the risk of illegal access to the game server is any greater than at present. As for providing input data in the correct format, thats a coding issue which, I guess, brings as back to why a 'code standard' might be a good thing.

We'll not dwell on that such a system would require yet another scraping of the bot servers every so often (Learner said something about 15 min intervals). So you propose putting an extra charge on ALL servers concerned for ... (yeah, for what exactly?)

I had in mind extending the current el server protocol to allow data to be uploaded from bot chars to avoid the need to scrape bot servers.

As to 'for what exactly', well that again brings us full circle in that it provides a means to deal with the issue that is the central subject of this thread, ie controlling bots that advertise without gc or slots. If the 'code standard' requires bots to upload sales spam to the server, obviously the server is then in a position to know if the bot has sufficient gc and slots.

#47 roman_gruber

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:21 AM

Short summary, I want to see how many gc on a bot. Thats an endless discussions, some guys use bots to keep prices artificial high and these bots never have cash when i try several times a week (i did in teh past quite often, was very bored)...

Because I can not unmix an item which i made for selling to that particular tradebot i lost for sure average 10kgc / month for sure because of some tradebot owners buying items for certain prices don*t have the cash on it, so I had to sell it to the next one which bought the item 1-3k gc cheaper.

Well if we could get an unmix feature, why not :) It is mostley unlike someone will sell stuff to the bot worth the stuff he buys always so I really prefer a visible line of cash on the bot :) To prevent such issues.

#48 the_grud

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:29 AM

I am owner of Xavierx bot in NC who ALWAYS has enough gc to buy what is wanted ,I seem to remember a player looting bots of GC.
Because of this I am against bots showing amount of gc they have,I believe this would make them a target for the less honest players in EL.
Surely it would be better to code bot so that it cant advertise as wanted an item it hasnt got the gc to buy?

Just my thoughts on the matter

the_grud

#49 Krrick

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 02:20 PM

I do agree that bots should not advertise for expensive items that they cannot pay for. However I feel that this is an owner choice on what they do. While I think an option in the bot code is fine, I do not agree with forcing it. I do NOT want my bot advertising how much gc it has and any technique to limit what they buy based on how much gc they have does exactly that. In addition there are other ways to buy/sell such as trading for other goods (something I do see happen quite often).

I always try to keep gc on my bots so that they can do plenty of business. Mostly I succeed and my bots rarely run out of gc - and if someone lets me know it has or lets me know that my bot is full, I correct it as soon as possible or buy from them directly if possible. I think this is the responsibility of the responsible bot owner. This is my own personal policy, but it's not something to legislate.

If you don't like that bot owner's policy or pricing structure, if you don't like them trying to buy things they don't have gc for, then boycott them - don't buy or sell anything from/to them. There are plenty of bots around, so find one where the owner has policies you do like. Talk to the owners, most will try to adjust their bot or somehow do business with you - they WANT your business, that's how they make gc or make their life easier in game, or whatever their goal is. A bot sitting there with no business is no benefit to the owner or anyone else, so they will probably work with you, but if they won't that's their loss - take your business elsewhere.

#50 Nova

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 02:36 PM

The problem with arguing that anything is the responsibility of the bot owners is that a lot of these owners have quit the game and are no longer logging on to take care of their bots.

#51 themuntdregger

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 11:38 AM

I do agree that bots should not advertise for expensive items that they cannot pay for. However I feel that this is an owner choice on what they do. While I think an option in the bot code is fine, I do not agree with forcing it. I do NOT want my bot advertising how much gc it has and any technique to limit what they buy based on how much gc they have does exactly that.



Agreed! If someone takes a trip to a bot only to find its got no gc, its more an inconvenience than a disaster. Even if a bot disclosed its gc, (particular if the price offered is good), there's no guarantee it wouldn't have run out of money in the time it takes the seller to arrive, or changed its pricing.

In any case, a bot may be set up with a strategy of 'back to back' selling of one items in order to raise gc to buy another, in which case the availability of either gc or items may periodically be affected. Doesn't mean that the bot owner isn't interested in buying/selling, just that some customers perhaps need to be a little more patient and commercially realistic.

#52 LongMustache

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 02:54 PM

Well of course. Bot owners dont like it. your too lazy to code an extra to prevent buying what you cant and you are too lazy to code that extra line with gc. I dont see any other explanation, as it is uber easy to check how much gc you have, just put some items the bot buys in the trade window. "i dont want anyone to know how much money my bot has" is not an excuse. Anyone who wants to know - knows already!

Anyway high prices stay, because of those out-of money bots.

Edited by Helklo, 22 December 2011 - 02:55 PM.


#53 roman_gruber

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 04:57 PM

Well lets start, I hope that is allowed, if not please delete the post so I know its not allowed ...

Today [PM from Millenium: I am buying up to 1 Mage Robe Pants for 40000 gc each.]

[pm from millenium: !!!!! i don't have enough coins to cover my side of the trade. !!!!!]

... => Most expensive item wanted ... [PM from Millenium: [Animal Removal Stone~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~500000.00gc|~~~~~~~1]

Happens quite often to myself :( Recently

#54 Nova

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 05:12 PM

Well of course. Bot owners dont like it. your too lazy to code an extra to prevent buying what you cant and you are too lazy to code that extra line with gc. I dont see any other explanation, as it is uber easy to check how much gc you have, just put some items the bot buys in the trade window. "i dont want anyone to know how much money my bot has" is not an excuse. Anyone who wants to know - knows already!

Anyway high prices stay, because of those out-of money bots.

Let's not forget that the vast majority of bot owners couldn't code their way out of a paper bag and probably half of them don't understand even exactly how the bot they are using work.

Not wanting the GC on your bot to be displayed is a valid concern imo as well.

#55 Wizzy

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 07:33 PM

Lets also not forget, the market has changed a lot and not many people buy as much as they sell

#56 themuntdregger

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 08:27 PM

Anyway high prices stay, because of those out-of money bots.


I don't see any evidence or rationale for saying that out of money bots keep prices high. If a bot can't actually buy at its advertised price, then that price becomes irrelevant.

#57 Learner

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 08:40 PM


Anyway high prices stay, because of those out-of money bots.


I don't see any evidence or rationale for saying that out of money bots keep prices high. If a bot can't actually buy at its advertised price, then that price becomes irrelevant.

Because unaware people use the bots advertised inflated buy price to justify a higher sell price, even when that bot can't pay.

#58 roman_gruber

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 10:57 PM



Anyway high prices stay, because of those out-of money bots.


I don't see any evidence or rationale for saying that out of money bots keep prices high. If a bot can't actually buy at its advertised price, then that price becomes irrelevant.

Because unaware people use the bots advertised inflated buy price to justify a higher sell price, even when that bot can't pay.


+1 And thats fact

#59 Dchels

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 11:22 PM

I have 2 bots online and try my best to keep gold coin on them, i understand ppl's fustration when they go to a bot without gc, it has happened to me lots too. tbh if the deal sounds to good to be true, it probably is, its part of the game, not nice i agree. If you dont like it sell on the market channel instead of going to the bots that YOU think YOUR going to make a few gc's on.

Some bot owners do set rediculous prices and i agree with some of the posts, they dont play that often anymore and let the bots run for themselves, so be it.

Bottem line is and ill say again, if the deal sounds to good to be true, it probably is.

Everyone has a greed factor in them wether its the bot owner or the the guilty buyers thinking their going to make a few gc's on the bot owners behalf.

Davy

#60 roman_gruber

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 11:14 AM

I don*t get the point why bot owners don*t what to have their gc visible to others.

Anyway if you pretend to buy item y for lets say x gc, you must have at least x gc on that bot. So that*s not an argument to myself really.

Some bots are only sell station like the bot emerald.

Okay lets make another thing: Give a warning when the inv command is used when the gc is below the most expensivest item * most expensivest item quantiy value.

Warning Message (gc) = bots (gc) smaller as (gc) most expensivest item * most expensivest item quantity
Shouldnt be that hard to code. And will satisfiy most customers.

Example ...

/bot inv ...
/[bot] WARNING I am low on gold coins !!! Trade on your risk
/ lines as usual ...




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