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Korrode's Combat Guides


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#1 Korrode

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Posted 08 November 2009 - 12:32 PM

Well i figure i may as well post the combat related guides that are now just collecting dust in private sections of Warlords forums here, where they may be of some use to people :)

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Training attributes guide

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Note that this is a general guide, I don't claim it's completely perfect for everyone's situation or play style, but at the very least it can be used as a basis or to get a general idea.

I'm not interested in debating the 'correctness' of this guide with anyone, if you think you know better, post your own guide.


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My recommendations are geared towards minimizing resources use in training.
Using less HE and SR potions, breaking less armor... in the end it equates to more time on spawn.
There are ways to make slightly more exp per hour than what will be yielded if you stick to this guide, but that exp often comes at too higher cost.

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Firstly, take Reasoning 8 and Vitality 16.
Do not take any Will (ever) or any Instinct (at this point).

Get a Crown of Life and NMT perk or cape.
(EDIT 2009-11-09: If you want a CoL-less guide, i suggest Masterpiter's.)
(EDIT 2010-11-09: MP's guide is outdated (as is obvious by the TS pot references) and frankly, he used that system to level on the PK server where there's 100 a/d cap. It doesn't scale well past 100 a/d. Many of us know he never had 48/48 p/c on fluff on the main server, even when he trained CoL-less. ;p
Simply I don't suggest CoL-less training, just get NMT and good toughness and you'll find that CoL to be quite durable)


Take Aluwen (def) and Unolas (mag) as your gods.

Polar Bears
Recommended p/c: 20/28
Recommended def: 55
Minimum def: 50
Weapon: none

EDIT 2011-06-14: It's been brought to my attention that the Polar Bear had a stats change and is now stronger. Until someone who understands combat well tests training it and lets me know the deal, it's stricken from the guide.

Ogres
Recommended p/c: 20/28
Recommended def: 60
Weapon: none

Armed Female Orc
Recommended p/c: 20/32
Recommended def: 70
Weapon: none

Armed Male Orc
Recommended p/c: 20/32
Recommended def: 75
Weapon: bone

Train Armed Orcs until 85 defense.

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During your time training the above creatures, other than taking the recommended p/c, you need to save pickpoints, as when your time on Armed Male Orcs finishes (~80-85 def), you must have 20 pickpoints saved up to then move to Cyclops.

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Leave Aluwen (def) and change to Mortos (att).

Cyclops
Recommended p/c: 28/44
Recommended def: 85
Minimum def: 80
Weapon:
- bone @ <80 att
- none @ >80 att

Fluffy
Recommended p/c: 28/44
Recommended def: 95
Minimum def: 90
Weapon:
- bone @ <90 att
- none @ >90 att

Train Fluffy until 105 attack.

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During your time training Cyclops and Fluffy, take your Vitality to 20, then build your Instinct and Reasoning to 16.

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Leave Mortos (att) and change to Aluwen (def).

Feros
Recommended p/c: 28/44
Recommended Inst: 16
Recommended def: 100
Minimum def: 95
Weapon: none

Train Feros until 115 defense. (If PK's not important and you're not sick of looking at feros, staying on them to 120 def is a good idea... tbh staying on them till like 125 def is just fine.)
(EDIT 2010-10-31: I reduced the recommended def and added a minimum def, because the old figure was ultra conservative. Note though, you shouldn't move off Fluff to Feros once you get to the recommended defense level unless you've already got your attack to 105 on Fluffy.)

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During your time training Feros, take your instinct to 20 and then save following pickpoints for p/c.

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Leave Aluwen (def) and change to Mortos (att).

Desert Chimeran
Minimum p/c: 36/48
Recommened p/c 48/48
Recommended Reas: 16
Minimum Inst: 16
Recommended Inst: 20
Recommended def: 115
Weapon:
  • 36/48 p/c = Stars medallion + bone
  • 40/48 p/c = Stars medallion (no bone)
  • 44/48 p/c = Bone (no stars med)

Train Desert Chimerans until at least 115 attack.

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During your time training Desert Chimerans, take phys to 48 (if you haven't already) then take instinct to at least 28.

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Leave Mortos (att) and change to Aluwen (def).
2011-02-04 EDIT: I will note that despite their higher attack, for overall exp there's like no difference between gods on FCW due to their crit-hit rate being higher than the likes of Feros so it gives you less opportunities to dodge. I still suggest Aluwen at this stage because pumping def now isn't a bad thing, you want it for Yeti/Trice, but it's optional.

Find a good PvP training partner.

2011-01-31 EDIT: We've just had a few double FCW spawns added to the game. This is great news for people up to this stage of training. To maximise the exp on the double spawns you want to try and be as close to permanently in combat as you can be. You don't want to kill them so fast that after you kill one you still have time to wait for the other to respawn, but not so slow that it respawns while you're still fighting the first one and has a chance to wander off.

For me using an Iron Broad sword and doing 1 flee achieves this (i'll note that I was doing too much damage for 2 full rounds of exp, but using a lower damage wep and getting 2 full rounds was taking too long and the other FCW would wander off).

I expect that for people in 110's attack a Steel Long Sword will probably be best to achieve this, but perhaps a Titanium Short Sword will be needed. I'd appreciate if people could post feedback on this.


Forest Chimeran
Recommended p/c: 48/48
Recommended Reas: 20
Recommended Inst: 28
Recommended def: 120
Weapon (2011-01-31 EDIT: Preliminary recommendation): Steel Long Sword

Train Forest Chimerans and your PvP partner until at least 130 defense.
Train them for longer, see below edits for details.

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During your time training Forest Chimerans/PvP partner, max physique (if not already), then bring instinct to 28 (if not already), then reasoning to 28. (then if you're still not ready for MCW, take instinct to 32, then reasoning to 32.)

2011-01-31 EDIT: IMPORTANT: With the introduction of the double FCW spawns, the MCW has been rendered even more worthless to train than it already was. Until I can convince Radu to drop MCW respawn time to 25 or at least 30 sec :sneaky: I recommend staying on the FCW's until you're at least 125/133 a/d and then you could swap to Mortos (att god) and focus more on the double Yeti spawn and Cockatrices, that said, if you're not sick of looking at the FCW's by then I'd suggest staying on them with Aluwen (def god) and getting a few more levels, as the single Cockatrice spawns will never yield you as much exp and thus for truly effective use of attack god you'd only have the one double Yeti spawn until you can train LOrcs (well, and the one Trice+Fluff spawn, which is good for either god).

Also keep in mind that once you go above FCW your chances of breaking armor will significantly increase, so that's another reason to hold off.


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Leave Aluwen (def) and change to Mortos (att)... finally, this will be your last god change B)

Mountain Chimeran
Recommended p/c: 48/48
Minimum r/i: 28/28
Recommended r/i: 32/32
Minimum att: 120
Recommended def: 130
Weapon: Ti Long. (There are better possible weapon choices once you can hit them more easily)

Train Mountain Chimerans until at least 125 attack.


2011-01-31 EDIT: Struck-out due to reasoning provided in above edit.

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During your time training Mountain Chimerans, bring Instinct to 36 if you haven't already, then place all following pickpoints on Reasoning.

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Yeti
Recommended p/c: 48/48
Minimum r/i: 28/32
Minimum def: 133
Minimum att: 125
Weapon: Cutlass (There are better possible weapon choices once you can hit them more easily)

Cockatrice
Basically the same as Yeti except use a Jagged Saber, not a Cutlass.

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CREDITS:
Anima - Refinements to Cyclops recommendations.
LadyAz - Testing on Armed Orcs
LightLan - Refinements to DCW recommendations.

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Understanding Criticals
critical-to-hit and critical-to-damage


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Each combat round in EL is made up of 6 'rolls':

1. CombatantA rolls for hit Critical
2. CombatantA tries to hit
3. CombatantB tries to dodge

Then, if CombatantA scored their hit:

4. CombatantA rolls for damage Critical
5. CombatantA deals damage
6. CombatantB absorbs damage

This completes CombatantA's combat round, then it's CombatantB's turn.

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Critical-to-Hit

Whenever a combatant starts a combat round, before anything, their chance of critical-to-hit is calculated. In effect, a dice roll happens, and if you roll over a certain figure, your hit roll is 'critical'.

When you roll a critical-to-hit, here's what happens:

1. CombatantA rolls for hit Critical (and succeeds)
2. CombatantA tries to hit
3. CombatantB tries to dodge (this doesn't happen, that is the effect of critical-to-hit)
4. CombatantA rolls for damage Critical
5. CombatantA deals damage
6. CombatantB absorbs damage

So, when a player/creature does a critical-to-hit, they will hit their opponent, no matter what. A combatant with 30 attack will hit an opponent with 120 defense if they score a critical-to-hit.

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Critical-to-Damage

Before i start on this, you need to understand the Damage and Absorb rolls. Lets look at the Damage roll:

5. CombatantA deals damage

What happens here is that the attacker's (CombatantA's) Might, Attack*0.2 and Equipment damage bonus are used in a calculation to determine how much damage will be inflicted upon the defender (CombatantB).

Now the Absorb roll:

6. CombatantB absorbs damage

What happens here is that the defender's (CombatantB's) Toughness, Defense*0.2 and Equipment armor bonus are used in a calculation to determine how much of the attacker's (CombatantA's) damage will be absorbed.

Whenever a combatant succeeds with their hit roll, before they start their damage roll, their chance for critical-to-damage is calculated. In effect, a dice roll happens, and if you roll over a certain figure, your damage roll is 'critical'.

When you roll a critical-to-damage, here's what happens:

1. CombatantA rolls for hit Critical
2. CombatantA tries to hit
3. CombatantB tries to dodge (and fails)
4. CombatantA rolls for damage Critical (and succeeds)
5. CombatantA deals damage
6. CombatantB absorbs damage (but ONLY their Toughness and Defense*0.2 is used in the calculation, NOT their Equipment armor bonus, that is the effect of critical-to-damage)

So, when a player/creature rolls critical-to-damage, they will damage their opponent as though s/he was wearing no armor at all.

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Selecting training armor

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First, read the Criticals section to understand how the damage rolls and critical-to-damage works.
If then you still don't quite understand the crits, that's ok, keep reading this and just follow the recommendations.

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Lets start with understanding the effects of equipment bonuses in relation to a/d training. If you type #arm in game the first 4 lines returned are your current Armor, Damage, Accuracy and Defense modifiers. Example:

Armor: 30/31
Damage: 22/24
Accuracy: 17
Defense: 10


Armor reduces the amount of damage you take when an opponent hits you (with the exception of received critical-to-damage hits).
It does not help you dodge hits, and thus will not increase your defense exp earning potential. Even if you absorb all the damage from a hit, you will not get def exp.

Damage increases the amount of damage you will inflict on your opponent when you hit them.
Remember, in EL doing more damage does not get you more attack exp. To maximize exp in training, you want to do enough damage so that you do take some health off your opponent, but as little as possible.

Accuracy increases your ability to successfully hit opponents. It does not increase the damage you inflict on opponents.
The outcomes of extensive testing strongly support that 1 accuracy provides the same increase in your ability to hit as 1 attack level does.

Defense increases your ability to successfully dodge hits. It does not decrease received damage.
The outcomes of extensive testing strongly support that 1 (equipment) defense provides the same increase in your ability to dodge as 1 (skill) defense level does.

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You will always take some damage in training, no matter what armor you wear, due to your opponent scoring critical-to-damage rolls.
The only thing that reduces the damage of received critical-to-damage rolls is Toughness (and Defense level, but the impact is small).

To use the least amount of resources (HE/SR) in training, it's best to absorb all the damage your opponent can possibly inflict on a normal damage roll. (2010-12-17 EDIT: With the new breaks system in place at the time of this edit, wearing enough armor so that all non-critical damage is absorbed is also pivotal in regards to reducing equipment breaks, the below recommended system of choosing training gear is more important and correct than ever.)
The easiest way to determine this, is to go and fight your training creature (or player) naked (well, no armor or medallion that gives armor bonus, a CoL is fine) for at least 5 minutes, and keep track of how much damage you take when they hit you. Whatever the maximum damage you took from a single hit was, that's how much minimum armor bonus you want.
Remember, you can check you current total minimum and maximum armor bonus with the #arm command, the first line of it's output is your armor bonus (Armor: min/max)

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An example:

I'm an Ogre trainer. I go and fight Ogres naked for 5 minutes and carefully watch how much health i lose each time they hit me.
They often hit me for 10, 11 or 12 damage, and occasionally they hit me for 13 and once or twice 14 damage.

So 14 damage is the maximum i get hit for.

The minimum armor i want to wear for training is the following:

  • Iron Plate Mail (7-10 armor)
  • Iron Cuisses (2-5 armor)
  • Iron Greaves (2-3 armor)
  • Moon Medallion (4 armor)
When i wear these items, my minimum armor is 15 and my maximum is 22. So even if i absorb damage as badly as possible, i'll still absorb all the damage from a normal Ogre hit.

That said, there are other factors to consider when selecting armor; negatives and bonuses to accuracy and defense.
The Ogre trainer in the above example should have used Augmented Leather Pants instead of Iron Cuisses, as Iron Cuisses have -1 to defense, where as Aug pants have +1 to defense, and his minimum armor bonus would have still been 14, enough to absorb all the damage an Ogre does to him on a normal hit.

Here's a further example of selecting armor for it's accuracy or defense bonuses:

I tried training Ogres in my Iron Plate + Moon med setup, i can hit them well and i only took damage when the Ogres scored critical-to-damage rolls, but they seemed to be getting these rolls a lot... it would be better if i could dodge them easier so they have less chances to roll critical-to-damage.

So, i will change my armor setup to this:

  • Titanium Chain Mail (5-7 armor, and only -1 defense, where as the Iron Plate Mail had -2)
  • Steel Cuisses (5-8 armor)
  • Steel Greaves (5-6 armor)
  • Unicorn Medallion (+4 defense, where as the Moon Medallion had no defense bonus)
When i wear these items, my minimum armor is 15 and my maximum is 21, so i'll still always absorb all normal Ogre damage.
The key difference is that my Iron Plate + Moon med setup was leaving me with -3 defense, even if i'd used Aug pants it'd have left me with -1 defense, but now with my new armor and med setup i have +3 defense and can dodge Ogres better.

A final note; always remember that you'll break less armor is you have higher defense. If you stick to the recommended defense levels for each creature in the Training attributes guide. you should break very little or no armor.

EDIT (2009-11-08): The above sentence was quite old and the system had some changes since then... ensuring you dodge as well as possible will of course reduce breaks, and it still could be possible that yourDEF VS opponentATT could be getting used in equipment break chances, but one thing i can now tell you for sure: the more Toughness you have, the less armor/medallions you break.

EDIT (2010-12-17): The breaks system has recently had changes (as stated in an edit earlier) but toughness is still very important to reducing armor breaks as it is how you can get yourself to a state where even on higher creatures you can absorb all non-critical damage.

Dodging your opponent's hits well is of course still very important to reducing armor breaks.


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Forever Warlord.

Edited by Korrode, 14 June 2011 - 01:41 AM.


#2 bigkav

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Posted 08 November 2009 - 04:06 PM

Well put.

#3 Lorck

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Posted 08 November 2009 - 04:54 PM

Nice guide, and actually made by people who actually trained. You can considere adding trices and LOs to the guide too.

The above sentence was quite old and the system had some changes since then... ensuring you dodge as well as possible will of course reduce breaks, and it still could be possible that yourDEF VS opponentATT could be getting used in equipment break chances, but one thing i can now tell you for sure: the more Toughness you have, the less armor/medallions you break.[/i]

I am pretty sure the amount of damage you take doesn't go into the calculation if a item breaks. The chance for item breaking is the same if you take 1k hits of 5 damage from fluffy or you take 1k hits of 75 damage from trice.

#4 Dugur

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Posted 08 November 2009 - 04:57 PM

Nice guide, and actually made by people who actually trained. You can considere adding trices and LOs to the guide too.

The above sentence was quite old and the system had some changes since then... ensuring you dodge as well as possible will of course reduce breaks, and it still could be possible that yourDEF VS opponentATT could be getting used in equipment break chances, but one thing i can now tell you for sure: the more Toughness you have, the less armor/medallions you break.[/i]

I am pretty sure the amount of damage you take doesn't go into the calculation if a item breaks. The chance for item breaking is the same if you take 1k hits of 5 damage from fluffy or you take 1k hits of 75 damage from trice.


And I can assure you the more toughness you have the less stuff you break.

#5 Lorck

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Posted 08 November 2009 - 05:00 PM

Maybe if the thoughness reduce the damage to 0, then the item breakage is also reduced...
EDIT:Duh, korrode and dugur were right. Radu did a change and year ago, when i was not playing, sorry for the confusion. :huh:

Edited by Lorck, 08 November 2009 - 05:15 PM.


#6 idefix

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Posted 08 November 2009 - 05:55 PM

Great guide! Thanks a lot, was wondering when I should be switching to dcw ^^

#7 Garnoo

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Posted 08 November 2009 - 08:51 PM

Great guide! Tried it out myself and I even managed to get gcs from my training (enough to cover the hes/srs used and buy some other stuff too).

As for the guild: Korr you are most welcome in CA$H. And since we are all inactive or almost inactive(for now...we may come back one day.) my guess is you'll fit pretty well. :pickaxe:

#8 Pablo_EC

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Posted 08 November 2009 - 09:14 PM

I used that guide to on Pablo's char, So I do recommend it. and sucks not having you arround Korrode!

#9 bigkav

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 12:00 AM

btw, my offer is always available about the guild thing. catch one of "us" online w/e you feel like it.

#10 yaserhameed

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 10:45 PM

nice guide ...looks like im on the right track ty :icon4:

#11 Gilrain

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 08:58 AM

very good guide, thx Korrode.

Just one addition from my side: i'm currently 80/81 a/d and i train lions instead of cyclops/armed orcs, because i am of the opinion that lions have less criticals and thus break less armor. Is this right ?

regards

Edited by Gilrain, 12 November 2009 - 09:01 AM.


#12 bigkav

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 09:37 AM

very good guide, thx Korrode.

Just one addition from my side: i'm currently 80/81 a/d and i train lions instead of cyclops/armed orcs, because i am of the opinion that lions have less criticals and thus break less armor. Is this right ?

regards

could be, i can't remember. what i do remember is that cyclops is a monster, and a lion is a creature meaning it won't auto attack. i always found that training clops in EP/wherever was much better then doing lions on hurquin. from my time on lions/clops, imo they crit around same rate. 20 toughness and you should be more then fine on clops.

#13 EaglePrince

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 10:55 AM

very good guide, thx Korrode.

Just one addition from my side: i'm currently 80/81 a/d and i train lions instead of cyclops/armed orcs, because i am of the opinion that lions have less criticals and thus break less armor. Is this right ?

regards

After being bashed to death by a cyc, I switched to lions and found them rather more comfortable. I never died or broke a thing. Having said that, I only used them while I was recovering from reset, and my only complaint was the lack of 'proper' drops. However this is a bonus if you're planning to train summonning, or have IEDP, like me.

#14 Neverman

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 06:11 PM

nice guide

Edited by Neverman, 04 March 2010 - 01:58 AM.


#15 matheszabi

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 01:51 AM

Very good description of critical hit and critical damages. A lot of thanks for that.
I needed to reread again and again and again... I got a few (correct responses from myself for my questions)

At the beginning is written:
"
My recommendations are geared towards minimizing resources use in training.
Using less HE and SRS. Breaking less armor. In the end it equates to more time on spawn.
"
Guide followers: give more attention for this few rows!!!

#16 bigkav

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 02:05 AM

Should be pinned imo, and it work's quite nicely.. from first hand experience using this as a guide I've trained many chars into hundreds.

#17 maximos

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 10:43 AM

with which armor are the cyclops stats based? and are you using CoL?

#18 Garnoo

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 10:52 AM

with which armor are the cyclops stats based? and are you using CoL?

The whole guide is based on the use of CoL as for the armor I believe that if you read carefully there's a guide for choosing the right armor too in Korr's post.

#19 Peach

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Posted 15 February 2010 - 08:27 PM

i laughed at feros : minimum def 105, 95 is more than enough

#20 Gilrain

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 03:14 PM

Train Fluffy until 105 attack.

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During your time training Cyclops and Fluffy, take your Vitality to 20, then build your Reasoning to 16 and then your Instinct to 16.

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Feros
Recommended p/c: 28/44
Recommended Inst: 16
Minimum def: 105
Weapon: none


just training on fluffs and planning my PPs. Cant see why you would raise Reasoning to 16 here tbh. Instinct makes sense, but why have reasoning 16 for the feros after?




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