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Thingrim

Goal/objective oriented invasions

Objective invasions  

22 members have voted

  1. 1. What do you think about objective invasions?

    • Great idea, that what invasions needs to be more interesting.
      9
    • Good idea, more variety is always good.
      8
    • I don't like it. Invasions doesn't need any changes.
      0
    • I don't like it. Invasions need something else.
      5


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Primary that idea was brought at chan 6, but some people asked me to start it on forum too, so here it is:

Like title sais this is idea of invasion events that are with objective that team need to met in this invasion. Very similar thing Vanyel tryed to do in his topic http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=60298.

If team complete task there will be reward, if not invasion will be cleared and shame on you blue message brought.

Reward:
I think most people go to invasion to have some profit, to have a chance to get an invasion drop items, gc, some extra exp, and even if not a story require to some sort of reward for fulfilling the objective. Reward should be a gc amount based on invasion range with amount that matters for people in that range and maybe a rare invasion items in amount 1 per team member like Item giver, exp giver or invasion token. Idea is to make people want go to that kind a event.

Team leader:
In this invasion there has to be leader, a one person that will lead others, plan actions,
split tasks etc. Team leader has to be appointed by other members before invasion starts, and after invasion he will get all reward to redistribute it among his team members.

 

Monsters:
Exac monsters of course depend on invasion range but in general the amount will set greater challange then a strenght of monsters. In classical invasion most profit usually come from killing boss, but in this idea there is a reward that has to cover that, so bosses aren't nessesary, they can be there to give extra chalange to avoid them while protecting VIP or to kill it fast while healing VIP at same time.

I will focus on 2 diferent kind of objective based on defend the VIP

1. Guarding a caravan.
In this invasion team has to guide a VIP through invaded map (or maps). Monsters are all over the place so team leader (who is also guide of o VIP) has to chose a path to bring VIP from one place to another, other team members job is to defend both guide and VIP by killing monsters near them, heal when they are wounded, scouts area around etc.
There is ofcourse a time limit to perform that task.

What is needed:

 

A VIP character, a AI controled bot with at least following instruction:
- Appoint a leader (Mod only) Before invasion starts mod appoint 1 person to be VIP guide and leader of team. That person and only that person can give VIP instructions
- Follow me - VIP is trying to be as close to guide as is posible, whenever guide move, VIP will move as well
- Stop - VIP stops and won't move untill given Follow me command again

 

2. Defend the fort
In this invasion VIP stands still in middle of some defended area (like fort, mountain pass, other side of bridge etc). Monsters are attacking team trying to get to VIP. If VIP is dead, team lose and all remaining monsters are cleared and shame on you blue msg posted. If Team kill all monsters before VIP dies there is a reward, same as in first example. As in first example team has to appoint a leader before invasion starts. He will plan defence, chose place for his warriors, decide when to go to kill marauders etc, and after invasion he will redistribute reward among his team members.

Monster in this invasion are spawned far from fort, in and are ordered to go to designated palce. Monsters are spawned with smaller waves with delay in few locations so they can go by different path. That's create a siege event when team really defend fort agains assaults.

What is needed:
A AI controled character that will stay in chosen place, no commands needed.
A different monsters behavior, instead moving random monsters have to go to place where a VIP is and try attack him.

 

 

Asorted thoughts:

Above i posted some tools (changes in game code) that are needed, I don't think that those changes are hard to implement. Many similar working code is arleady in game.

Invasion with that changes will work and looks beter, but both of examples can be started even today with additional work from people in game.

 

VIP there is just a general term in can be whatever fits for story, so it can be caravan with resources to city, it can be merchant that need guards, or Ambassador of a foreign country posibilities are endless.

 

Thank you for reading, I know it was long. If you have any comments feel free to post them,

especially if it is desire to participate n that kind of event. And if there are not clear things or more details needed, ask here or PM me in game.

 

Edited by Thingrim

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What you posted here is a variation to the Instances and combined it with Counter strike ( protect vip section). I feel that doing this kind of thing might be possible and interesting But, if a team is needed to be set at the beginning of invasion then the ppl who come online later on wont be able to join, also since the number of monsters is high so it could take more than 6 hours to finish, in between real life work can come up and ppl might have to leave and since other ppl wont be able to join so the balance of team players will be distorted.

Also, if the mobs are programmed to come and attack the bot and suppose the bot is supposed to be transported from one location to another, then what will happen is more mobs will be attracted to the bot than to the players, hence while every body is busy fighting the mobs that are currently engaged with them, some mobs at the back could pass to attack and kill the VIP, thereby leading to failure.

Transporting the VIP to another location can only happen if the mobs spawn in waves like in instance. Also the movement of VIP from one postion to another would become a major challenge in keeping him alive. thats all i have to say for now.

Edited by Blue_dragon

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I'm in favour of more interesting/ different invasions

I'll add some of my own ideas later, first some questions:

What determines the stats of the VIP? (a/d, attrib if any). Can he fight back when attacked, or only rely on defense?

Someone mentioned in 6 that this VIP should act much like creature summoned by leader, with summon option available, your thoughts on that?

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I really like this suggestion. It adds more variety to the game, and may bring some people back just to try it out. It doesn't look too troublesome to add to the game, (from a non-programmer perspective), so assuming it's new content that can easily be released, I don't see why not give it a further look.

Edited by BunnieRabbit

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@Blue_dragon

Monsters is supose to attack only in defend the fort version where VIP not move at all, and here yes ideally is monsters to attack in waves from random dirrections.
In guard version monsters are spawned like in normal invasion and just move random lika they usually do, no need for waves here. Number of monsters need to be adjust of course you have point there. In my idea of guard version I thought of very large map like Idaloran. Even 3k monsters are not crowded there and with random movement that will be unpredictable chalange that will force to scout and adjust too dynamic situation, that is exacly my idea.

Time invasion last is easy adjusted by number of monsters. In Guard version it is time limit to perform task, it can be 2h for example, no problem there.

Same goes for defend the fort version. For example 4 waves of 100-150 monsters every 30 mins, so a total of 2-3h will create a both interesting event and won't block map for ages.

Someone going late for invasion that is some inconvenience, but I deliberately omit it, and leave it for team leader to decide, If leader thinks additional fighterer will help and will follow commands, there is no reason for him to split with more players then starting number. All that can be done within game, and that was exacly why in idea I forced a leader person.

 

@Ranculos

What determines the stats of the VIP? (a/d, attrib if any). Can he fight back when attacked, or only rely on defense?

Someone mentioned in 6 that this VIP should act much like creature summoned by leader, with summon option available, your thoughts on that?

 

Stats are determined by invasion range. I think VIP should be like player in 1-2 ranges lower then invasion fighters. It could have more HP (Material points) around 300-500 so he can last a little. In general Vip should have stats that even easiest monster in range could kill him.

I think those few commands I posted are enough, but if more commands will make it better then why not.

Edited by Thingrim

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I would say that it will be better to create a poll regarding this, it is not too hard to implement i m sure. hence a poll and support for this kind of invasion might get it implemented faster and sooner

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I like your idea... but there's a lot still to be done in my opinion. Here are some questions I have after reading through:

 

Are the proposed objectives coded into the invasion (perhaps a much more advanced GWIS)?

Are the proposed objectives mod selected or automatic?

What determines if the objective is completed with success or failure?

What determines the reward?

What determines who is rewarded?

How are people rewarded?

If failure are people penalized?

How are teams organized, formal or informal?

What if someone participates but is outside of the 'team' structure?

What if someone is on the team but participates 'poorly'?

How is a team leader selected?

Is the team leader a formal position?

What entails a caravan?

What's the VIP; NPC (AI), player, mod?

How's the path selected?

How's time limit determined?

VIP Capabilities (fight for itself, heal, etc)?

How are monsters going to be told to go somewhere?

Shame message by mod, automatic?

 

I would go out on a limb, and say most of these questions are going to be answered by 'mods will do it' or 'players will do it'. Personally, I think you are vastly underestimating the apathy of mods and players (no offense all). On the few questions that aren't answered as such... and also proposed by yourself:

 

What is needed:
A AI controled character that will stay in chosen place, no commands needed.
A different monsters behavior, instead moving random monsters have to go to place where a VIP is and try attack him.

 

You can speculate that these things are 'easy' to implement, I'll let radu speak for himself on the difficulty of implementation of such items.

 

All in all, I don't really see any of this as necessary. If you really want this, talk with a mod willing to do some different style invasions, select some maps, and go for it. Talking about things on the forums is fine... doing stuff generally gets more attention though.

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you asked questions that are already answered, read the first post by thingrim

As for reward, as in current invasions we follow "you keep what u kill policy" for the normal mobs and only the boss mob's drop is shared as it is shared among the players who killed that boss mob, (a temporary team needs to be formed by consent of players as it is done in current invasions).

To start an invasion ppl could pay 5kgc each to participate to the npc, if the invasion is not finished and left unattended, the server can clear all the mobs after a 24 hour period for capped invasions upto 145 a/d and 36 hour period for uncapped, also if any peace day or no rosto day occurs in this period, then additional 6 hours added to the period.

 

the caravan (protect vip) type invasion might need too much work, so i am not commenting on it.

 

The invasion is supposed to be started by a npc, so i would say there is no need for mod involvement. And since if the invasion is capped for certain range then over capped players arnt allowed to enter that map, ( different map like invances is need to be used ) hence no rule breaking will occur in terms of over cap ppl killing undercap mobs by summons and magic.

Thats all for now

Edited by Blue_dragon

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@Diealot

Yes, you are right there most of answers to your questions will be "people will do it/figure it out" or "moderator will do it". It would be much better that it would be done automaticly, that is right, but that would be need many work possible even difficult work. That's why I didn't suggested that.

In basic idea it can be done right now, even without special tools I pointed, and those special tools are rather simple. It will still be like normal invasion started by and controled by moderator, with some extra work (like put vip in place, spawn monsters in waves, only little more work then modeators usually do).

I wanted to start with small steps, rather then revolution from start, if that will work then I think it will be more motivation to create a fully automated invasion, not only this but all, just by exploring GIWS idea more.

As for asking moderators I did that, asked 1 moderator directly, talked with Radu, asked moderators in general, but I won't be pushing anyone to do anything, I think that will do only damage. If someone is interested I will be more then happy to discuss details in private to help organize, to guide while doing it etc. I have pretty detailed vision of that, but there are things I can't do without moderator or Radu.

In general just treat it like normal invasion where instead of just killing monsters you have a objective to defend 1 character, it is simple as that.

Below I will post more detailed example of invasion. Maybe that picture will help answer questions.

Blue msg:
Black sails has been seen near Sedicolis shores. Pirates!
Mayor of Sedicolis is looking for brave men to defend city. 100 cap defend the fort invasion.


Then anyone who want participate gather in Sedicolis tavern, where there already is moderator starting this invasion and put VIP (a 60-70 a/d character armed with no drop items, maybe with some extra will for higher hp then normal). People who gathered there have 20 mins to chose a leader and then 10 mins to finial preparation and tactic discusions.

Blue msg:
Mayor of Sedicolis made agreement with X (name of leader), he will lead defenders of Sedicolis.

Then a VIP is placed somwhere inside Sedicolis City, and invasions starts. Monsters are spawned in grass area mostly few little closer to fort and invasions starts. How many monsters? 500 for start, maybe another 500 later.

Team is fighting. If They manage to kill all enemies and not loosing VIP invasion ends, VIP trades X reward and Blue msg:
Brave defenders lead by X defeated pirates invasion. Grateful people of Sedicolis celebrates!!

X shares reward among his fighters, and that's it.

If however VIP dies invasion is ended, all remain monsters are cleared and blue msg:
Mercenaries lead by X, lost. Pirates looted Sedicolis, many citizens died. Mayor refused to pay reward and banish mercenaries from city.

Edited by Thingrim

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Radu agrees to do that kind of invasions if there will be a team, so if you want to see that gather a team and ask for that. Preferable when I'm on so I can see it and advice how it should be done.

 

And if you are close to my a/d PM me and lets form a team.

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As we've discussed yesterday. I agree that it would be nice to add some twist(s) to invasions. However, your idea is impractical. The reason for such are requirements for it, namely gathering the team, getting moderators to either supervise it or run it. These make it impossible to run ad-hoc. Each time it would require heavy preparations on all sides.

 

Making it automatic with NPCs is not a solution due to limitations of NPCs themselves. They can't move. They can't react in any form to their surrounding other than being clicked. They can't be attacked (though I suppose it could be implemented) by monsters. Question is, whether the changes to code that would be require will be a good investment. Personally, I find it very questionable.

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... Question is, whether the changes to code that would be require will be a good investment. Personally, I find it very questionable.

And so does radu... He actually had a nice list of questions, not many of which got answered.

 

At the end, he suggested to Thingrim that he, Thingrim, gets a team together to test out this idea,

and radu will provide the invasion.

 

Which is not the same as

Radu agrees to do that kind of invasions if there will be a team, so if you want to see that gather a team and ask for that. Preferable when I'm on so I can see it and advice how it should be done.

 

And if you are close to my a/d PM me and lets form a team.

Of course, you can try it with any team, but if you are in a packed invasion, good luck...

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Just to clear it NPC was never mine idea. Radu called VIP NPC so maybe that where confusion came from. In my idea it's an AI controled bot so no change in game code is needed, and bot code solve all problems you stated. Also is not that this will be totally new code for bots. Guard bots, pet bots seems to similar functions to what is needed.

As for preparations yes that's right. But is it that much more preparation then people do before instance for example? Most of invasions seems to be asked for, so if people ask for that kind of invasions that I proposed, that means they are ready for it. What you called impractical there is exacly that kind of interactions that seems to lack. DIscussing strategy, position, gear appointing leader, makes that team realistic, fun, creates an event type invasion.

Additional work from someone to supervise it it will be needed to at first, but then again if that idea will be liked by people then why programers couldn't make it automated? After all there are already automated invasions in EL.

That was going to be another step in my idea, but I wanted to go small at first to see how people like idea in first place, and I think poll is saying a lot about that.

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During the discussion in @6 yeasterday, radu stated some some problems that would have to be solved in order to use a bot for that (which will have to be coded as well, btw). I didn't see any answers to those (rather specific) questions either then in @6 or here in forums.

 

As for bot vs. NPC, there's not that much difference (see leonard (alpha)), but that was not the main problem either.

 

And once again, radu suggested that you, Thingrim, get a team together to test your idea, which is not "radu accepted it, so go and get a team together, guys". So until you do that, it seems to me that any further discussion here is rather pointless...

(and for a test, you don't need a bot or NPC, a player alt will work just as well)

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During the discussion in @6 yeasterday, radu stated some some problems that would have to be solved in order to use a bot for that (which will have to be coded as well, btw). I didn't see any answers to those (rather specific) questions either then in @6 or here in forums.

Got specifics? I think I answered all questions, or maybe answer was in this topic, but maybe I missed. Ask them again and I will answer here so they won't be lost.

 

 

And once again, radu suggested that you, Thingrim, get a team together to test your idea, which is not "radu accepted it, so go and get a team together, guys". So until you do that, it seems to me that any further discussion here is rather pointless...

 

OK lets say what I posted is confusing.

Sorry for that. Revi is right radu agreed to test when I get team. And I'm gathering a team.

I don't see problem gathering team via forum, and I don't see problem if someone who likes my idea to ask for that invasion aswell.

 

 

(and for a test, you don't need a bot or NPC, a player alt will work just as well)

 

And I said that in first post of this topic under Asorted thoughts.

Edited by Thingrim

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