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McLane

training arrows producible

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After PK-arrows became producible I took the opportunity to ask Radu if training arrows might become producible, too. He said no because they'd be more expensive than buying from npc. I assume this statement is based upon the fact that arrow heads need an iron bar and the feather's aren't cheap either. But why would a training arrow need a head made out of iron or a "fancy" feather? It's for training purpose, not for killing (even though it does some damage).

 

My suggestion for training arrows:

1 Yew

1 Fern (not ingame yet) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fern

1 Air essence

 

With carving knife you make the yew sharp on one end, the fern replaces the feather. For a training arrow that should be good enough.

 

Kind regards

 

McLane

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It would still be more expensive than from NPC. Cost of AE is 7,5-8gc and I doubt that someone will sell yew under 2gc. Also some food would be needed.

 

And do not forget, that buying from NPC provides a money sink, which would be gone and Entropy would have to find another. (ohforf'sake, I wish I had a No More Sinks cape...)

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I was thinking yesterday about this. You could make like 10 training arrow heads from 1 iron bar (that would make ~3gc each head).

 

Then you can do this:

 

1 training arrow head (3gc)

1 yew (~5gc)

1 fe (3gc)

 

Considering the fact that you could harvest yew yourself I think this could work pretty well. And making more than 1 item is possible I think because you also get 2 mercury from cinnabar.

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Aislyn is right..the training arrows could just be made from 2 dry twigs and a log, it would still end up going up in price (as well as making the ingredients go up in value also) on the market channel until the npc no longer saw anyone buying from it. For future reference, Radu is most likely basing his decisions on several years hard work on EL and knowing what will happen when something like that is implemented, rather than on the "current" value of ingredients for a single item. (I accept full responsibility for being completely bloody wrong though, because I am just ASSUMING that last statement) :P

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If it was just made out of wood it would probably involve sanding paper.

 

1 Yew, 1 wood branch, 1 sanding paper.

 

Still more expensive than npc but maybe sanding paper should be manufactarble (bone powder?) or drop its price (and yes I'm a crafter who uses a lot of sanding paper :wub:)

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I was really counting on training arrows being manufacturable or a price decrease. Did radu really say it's not happening? If so, I guess I'm quitting ranging.

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I was really counting on training arrows being manufacturable or a price decrease. Did radu really say it's not happening? If so, I guess I'm quitting ranging.

 

same here

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From Entropy's January 8th blog entry:

 

There will be two kind of arrows: Training arrows, which will be buyable form an NPC only, and will cost 10gc a piece, and the 'PK' arrows, which will be made by players, and will cost more (will also be more powerful and accurate). Of course, you will be able to PK witht rainign arrows, or train with PK arrows, but doing so might not be a very good idea.

 

That doesn't mean he can't change his mind, but that's the current information.

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Yeah but he also said that arrows would be makeable under crafting and bows under engineering about the same time in his blog...

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Yeah but he also said that arrows would be makeable under crafting and bows under engineering about the same time in his blog...

That would imply that the PK arrows would be under crafting.

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Even if all the ingredients together could be sold for twice the price the training arrows/bolts cost at the NPC, they could be makeable, because they wouldn't do much harm to the economy - rather take items out of the game. And you would be able to quickly fabricate one e.g. on C2 without going to the NPC in MM. Or just for the fun of it... "Yay I made my first 200 arrows... three times more expensive then from the NPC... erm why did I do that?"

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Even if all the ingredients together could be sold for twice the price the training arrows/bolts cost at the NPC, they could be makeable, because they wouldn't do much harm to the economy - rather take items out of the game. And you would be able to quickly fabricate one e.g. on C2 without going to the NPC in MM. Or just for the fun of it... "Yay I made my first 200 arrows... three times more expensive then from the NPC... erm why did I do that?"

 

I think you will find training arrows are available from General stores and not just MM npc.

Edited by conavar

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I think that training arrows that would cost double to produce of what the NPC sells for would be a nice idea. Actually the vials are more expansive to produce than buying them from the NPC, however many people make the vials themselves.

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I think that training arrows that would cost double to produce of what the NPC sells for would be a nice idea. Actually the vials are more expansive to produce than buying them from the NPC, however many people make the vials themselves.

One reason people make things more expensive then the NPC is as long as you harvest the & make stuff your self or get them in exchange for favors it's 'free' and you don't have spend gc (or only on those occassions you have to replace a broken tool/mold).

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I think that training arrows that would cost double to produce of what the NPC sells for would be a nice idea. Actually the vials are more expansive to produce than buying them from the NPC, however many people make the vials themselves.

One reason people make things more expensive then the NPC is as long as you harvest the & make stuff your self or get them in exchange for favors it's 'free' and you don't have spend gc (or only on those occassions you have to replace a broken tool/mold).

And you get xp :)

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One reason people make things more expensive then the NPC is as long as you harvest the & make stuff your self or get them in exchange for favors it's 'free' and you don't have spend gc (or only on those occassions you have to replace a broken tool/mold).

True but I don't really understand what is your point...?

 

It "can" be free but it takes much more time than just buying the final product from the NPC. It's the same thing for vials, thread, some armors, etc. but at the end it just gives another alternative to players.

 

Some would prefer buy the stuff from the NPC because it's cheaper, some others would prefer make the stuff themselves for the experience and because they think it's cheaper (which is just an illusion). But most of the time people just go harvest lupines, titanium or other resources to sell it to a NPC until they have enough gcs to buy what they want at another NPC. So in all cases, it doesn't change anything at the end except that you have several ways to reach the same goal.

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Well, unless if we use a branch as a training arrow, there is no way to make them cheaper than even twice the NPC price.

You have yew (let's say 2 gc), a feather (10gc now, but would grow up more in price, as the demand increases), an arrow head (let's say we use gypsum, rather than metal), and the chance of the arrow head mold to break (which is 1/10K, for a 20Kgc item, so 2gc per use).

In total this is 14 gc not including the gypsum and food.

 

But even so, the price will increase as the feathers reserves decrease, and eventually it's not going to be worth making them. Why not just pay a little more and make PKing arrows, which are considerably more useful?

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Yes I agree that the feather would be the most expansive stuff in the training arrow if we use gypsum for the head (nice idea btw! :confused:). But still it would be much cheaper than a PK arrow because an iron bar is worth ~35gc.

However, I've seen somewhere that in theory we can use what we want to replace the feathers for the arrow. We can use for example reed leaves or thin skin. In this case, maybe we could replace the feather by a peace of leather which has a fixed price?

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And along with the above ideas, there's no need for an arrow head on a training arrow. A pointed or even rounded tip on the wood would serve the purpose just fine (especially since they're one-use, so there's no need for it to survive multiple uses).

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Another consideration is that engineering is designed to be an expensive skill, so if I ever make the training arrows cheap to make, then the problem would be that the engineering skill will become much easier to level (make the arrows, sell under NPC price, get some money back and get lots of engineering exp.)

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That's very true Entropy, but consider: a pointed stick and some plant material (to simulate the fletching) or perhaps something to use as vanes instead. Not that hard to make, experience similar to ash or rope perhaps? It could be a low-level engineering skill rather than up there with the PK arrows/bolt.

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a pointed stick

 

hence my idea to use sanding paper (idea being you would sand the wooden stick into shape)

 

and who says training arrows need to be under engineering - crafting FTW :doze:

 

Seriously a bit like "Bones to gold spell" requires both magic and alchemy why don't we have more stuff like this with a combination of requirements.

 

Maybe training arrows could be a low level eng item but also med/high crafting. that way you get a lot of money out the game through sanding paper (to get the high craft lvl) so the arrows are still an expensive item to make in reality.

 

My suggestion (feel free to tweak)

 

Training arrow

 

Requirements (Engineering 13, Crafting 39)

Art nexus 1

1 Wood branch, 1 sanding paper, 3 training flights

exp given 24 eng, 28 crafting

 

Training flights

Requirements (Engineering 10, Crafting 36)

Tool require: Morter & Pestle

1 honey comb, 1 yarrow, 2 wheat

exp given 14 eng, 12 crafting

 

(did you know when you mash up wheat and yarrow and a bit of sticky honey and leave it to dry out it hardens very stiff and makes a perfect flight to stick on to a stick and forma trating arrow?... no neither did I but hey its a game and does have to be perfect :o)

Edited by neildog

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Requirements (Engineering 13, Crafting 39)

1 Wood branch, 1 sanding paper, 3 training flights

Just the sandpaper by itself takes the cost to 10gc. Add anything else and it's cheaper and certainly faster to just go buy them from the nearest general store.

 

I agree in principle, but if they're going to be worth making in bulk, the cost has to be less than the NPC price.

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The original idea was not to make them worth making in bulk or 'worth' making at all. Engineering is supposed to be a money sink so making the training arrows profitable or even break even is not going to happen. The idea is to make them cost less than PK arrows to make so that people would make them but cost more than the NPC price for training arrows so that people would only make them for experience and personal use. This way there is an alternative to buying from the NPC even though it is not cost effective. You trade time and experience for gold coin. This idea not only gives you engineering experience but ranging experience as well. Ranging and engineering are both supposed to be expensive.

 

I think this would be a great idea as an alternative to going to the NPC for players who don't like to buy stuff all of the time. I kind of like the idea for all of the items that are NPC purchase only actually. All of the tools that we can't already make, training arrows, wooden shields, etc... Why not give players a fun way to get items they need other than just harvesting for gold and buying stuff even it if doing it does cost them more time, gold coin, etc in the process. People will do stuff that gives them experience whether it costs them money or not. That is how most skills are leveled anyway. These items would all be breakable if they are not already and players could take the hit on the cost if they didn't want to go to the NPC.

 

Anything food and drink related, and leather as well, should not be included in this idea for the reasons posted in the recent suggestion thread about making leather manufacturable. :) I think the formulas should be left up to the developers unless they want to ask for our ideas. Experience for making these items especially the training arrows would be quite low since they are mostly easy to make. Needles might be an exception to the low experience suggestion.

 

Tirun

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