New Manufacturing System

[Roja]

Ok.. here's my idea for this: I'd really like this game to be a bit more realistic, even to the point where you can learn some stuff from it. I'd also want people to have to work more to be able to make weapons & armor, other things as well but this post centers around the weapons/armor.

 

First, let's take a look at what a real sword is made of, and how it's made, and what it takes to make one(in somewhat simplified terms).

 

Parts:

-metal for the blade(turns into the blade object)

-wood or bone for the handle

-leather to wrap around wood handle

-various metals for the hilt can be used

 

Tools:

-coal

-*forge & anvil

-*bellows

-hammer

-fuel for the fire

-smaller hammers & chisels for the hilt if designs are done.

-*quenching tank for heat treatment(to harden the blade)

 

*means it's a static object that you have to use, doesn't go in your inv.

 

What it takes:

-time..lots of time

-strength

 

ok.. So here's an idea of how it can work on the game:

 

There are static blacksmith forges set up around the game with the *immoveable tools. We will have to add more than what we have now so there won't be crowds.

 

When you have all of your tools, you'll go to the forge. First, you'll have to make your fire hot enough. Maybe there can be a picture of a fire in the corner of your screen as a temperture gage?It will go up and down over time. When it gets below a point it's too cold to forge the metal, so you need to use your bellows.

When it gets above a point i'ts too hot and your metal will burn.

Here's a small simulation of what you'd do:

 

:player clicks on forge to start using it... OR... pay the owner(NPC)Blacksmith a small fee to rent his forge.

:player clicks on forge & the "thermometer"* will come up in the corner of the screen telling you what the fire is like(how hot/cold).

:player puts coal(a few pieces) on forge by USEING** coal object and clicking on forge.

:player lights fire with fire essence maybe?

:player USES bellows object on forge to make fire hot(thermometer starts to rise)

-you'd keep using the bellows until the fire reaches a certain temperature. The temperature will then fall if you don't use the bellows(maybe 1 step every 5 seconds or so or maybe it can drop semi-randomly)

:player USES metal piece on forge--metal pieces needs X seconds/minutes to heat up. Metal bar will actually show itself on the forge so that it can be picked up later.

:player continues to use bellows to keep fire steady until metal comes to it's correct temperature for hammering(server will send messages stating how the metal is OR another temperature icon for the metal can be made)

:player clicks on metal bar and it is now in the USE item spot

:player clicks to USE anvil(metal bar goes on anvil)

:player Uses hammer on the metal bar(clicking several times, server sends a message each time saying things like "good hit!" "you missed and hit the anvil" "you hit too hard and shattered your blade!", etc...)

:player puts metal bar back on forge after the metal cools down too much to be hammered anymore

:player uses bellows to get fire hot again, also might have to add more coal(server can send random messages "you need more coal on the fire" "all coal is used up"

 

-the process of using the bellows, hammering the sword repeats for a time.

-when blade is done,the player then tempers or "heat treats" the sword to make the blade nice and hard

 

:player heats blade to it's critical temp

:player takes blade off forge and puts it in water(or oil)

:player reheats blade on forge & puts it in the water again (this goes on a few times)

 

-Now we have a ready blade. Whole process of making the blade should take around 5-10mins..that should keep em busy and off of mass production Different swords require different temperatures for the blade to be, different lengths of time to do the different steps. You'd have to read a book on specific sword making to find out how to make one, and also be a certian skill level. The picture of the blade for all the swords would be the same, except for maybe soem special ones. All metal weapons would be made like this, or a similar process.

 

-After you make the blade..you'll have to go throught a process of making the handle and hilt guard too. You need wood or bone for the handle(woodworking can maybe be a separate skill, or be worked into an existing one)

 

 

 

*The thermometer would look like a fire flame that would glow brighter & different shades of red/orange as the fire gets hotter, it would sit in the corner of the screen. Once it reaches a certain color, you'd put the metal on it to heat up. You'd have to determine what "color" of heat is the right temp for the metal.

 

**There will be a new USE item tool. You'd click with the use icon on an obj in your inv. or quickbar. That item would then be "in your hand" so you can USE it on other objects in the game. There would be a small picture of that item on the side of the screen, below the quickbar maybe. It will stay that item until you change it to another(or leave it empty). And you'd have to first click the use icon to be able to use it on an object.

This is how the old quest games did it pretty much.

 

 

 

Ok, please tell me any good ideas or suggestions you guys have for this system!

[scarr]

I think its good to make manufacting Harder and maby also crafting, So the items will stay expensive and not go like the serpent 20k to 8k :/

[crusadingknight]

Erm - if we're going to take so long, we'd better either a. double the NPC blacksmith prices, b. make more than one sword at once, or c. almost completely remove the item loss and fail rate.

[Dorplein]

And what about lvling???

[ssjgohan]

well very big process but for taking such a long time. i think you should see to it that we can't lose our stuff too many times when making something...

and i like the idea of making the game more realistic but i think you are going VERY far now not that i don't like it but...

 

make manu like magic then once you reach a certain lvl you can make something but you can't lose your stuff (like you can't lose essences with magic)

 

maybe you might want too let us gain more exp for this too

 

btw if we can put the iron bar on the forge can it be picked up be someone else then? that would be kind of painfull if so

Edited November 16, 2004 by ssjgohan

[Aislinn]

Would more than one person be able to make something at the same time or would people basically have to wait in line to make their blade/handle/hilt?

 

And could you only do one at a time?

[EarlGrey]

that should keep em busy and off of mass production

 

I wasn't even aware there was a mass weapon production problem at all! Is there?

 

I like the new interface, but it would be hard to introduce to newer players...

 

Also, you would have to stop weapons from being dropped by monsters, but that is a more general remark (I personally think monsters should never drop anything directly useable like cloaks, high-level weapons and armor; they should only drop things like books and serpent stones and such - and yes, cloaks should be craftable :-)

[crusadingknight]

I think 30 seconds would be long enough, unless we want to take 1 minute on each harvest to make it more realistic too....

 

And as for weapons being dropped EarlGrey...it's hard to afford to fight as it is. Fighting should be a viable skill, not just a sideshow...

Edited November 16, 2004 by crusadingknight

[Soldus]

how about this:

 

you can make weapons at a certain lvl, but you need much more time than at a higher lvl ?

a uber-mega-chief-master-smith could mebbe forge the blade in 1o heat-cycles, a novice needs 100...

and yes, fails would really be horrible with this

otherwise, i think it's a very good idea

[Roja]

Failure rates would actually depends more on what YOU do to allow the failure to happen...however they can be decreased..and no you would not make 2 weapons at once time.

 

And it would take much longer than 30seconds..like i said this is a matter of minutes. People will not have to wait in line to use the forges, everyone can do their own thing at once.

[ssjgohan]

it will surely decrease the amount of manufacturers i think, making weapons worth more i think i might want to load up on weapons by manuing before this is implemented. i hope if i try that new system that i won't get distracted by someone or gone stuff .

 

Any idea when it will be here, Roja?

[crusadingknight]

So, @ ~5 min, I can make 12 swords an hour if I have the materials...so me, I hope they don't break on a garg . Looking at it this way, it seems viable, but my time is money, too...for one sword, we have 5+(10? for the materials) min., in which I can gather, what, 500 fruit?... maybe I miscalculated there

...but still, I think higher skill should mean higher rewards, so it would involve, yes, _lessening_ monster drops, maybe lowering the skill level (by half?), perhaps increasing exp., and increasing price from NPCs...

Edited November 16, 2004 by crusadingknight

[Acelon]

This is a great idea. It adds more realism to the game. Howeverm someone brought up the crafting being changed as well. A new system should be made for each skill. I dont think you hammered out a ring in a forge

 

Anyways, its a great idea and a great start to fixing the economy.

[Roja]

Right..this system will involve a lot of balancing(it's needed anyways), and it will not be implemented for a while yet.

[ssjgohan]

hmm i like the idea and still something inside me is yelling "NOO you can't let this happen" but i guess this should come in the game and for sure if it fixes the economy seeing the economy is messed up and all the money is with a mod <_< *points at LV* i think i will like the better economy will the store prices be changed too then abit?

[scarr]

Maby something like this:

[ssjgohan]

right woodwork and leatherwork should be implemented too but how will we ake the wood planks and leather then?

[Gen_Axis]

Hm, an idea is quite good, but dont make manu too hard.. there is already many stuff making production hard.

1. alchemy - when essence was added to bars production cycle i was angry, but i realized that was good idea (also removing coal from cc),

2. harvesting- that is now really annoying (this is the part who make many ppl macroing, cuz noone want to go back when teleported, or go buy pickaxes... legally is pissing of to do harvesting, but afk/macroing is become more popular, if you set auto-back-walking, or auto-pickaxe wearing client) The only reason im not macroing with harvesting is... i dont know how make that client... yet. :-)

3. alchemy (again cuz harvesting and bag sitting in mine <- teleportation)

4. manufacture (hm, hard thing, it is another developers vs macroers war starting ?

 

5. Increasing failing-stop-lvls (range ?)

 

PS. Good is: there still are fresh ideas for game, Bad is: theyre only making game harder, never easier...

 

Btw. i like reading this forum, and registered specially to write that up, yay, my first post. :-)

Edited November 16, 2004 by Gen_Axis

[Paladin]

I think it's a good ideea, but not for all the items. No-one will make iron swords like that or iron chainmail. So how about implementing this sistem only for the top items, like Serp sword, tit axe and iron plates?

 

Or better yet, make NEW items that can be made that way, like Steel Plates, titanium shields or a better sword then Serp (or new rings/ meds for crafting and so on).

 

 

Edited: To Gen_Axis: The point it's not to make the game easyer, but more intresting

Edited November 16, 2004 by Paladin

[The_Piper]

Hmm, isnt it too complicated to implement?

 

I would suggest that we need more skills, like woodwork and leatherwork mentioned before, and more ingrediences to make items.

 

You dont need only iron bars, steel bars, fire ess and a hammer in your inventory.

 

Whats about leather threads, bone or wood, water essences, earth essences, polished gems, gold and silver bars, flowers for coloring and coal and so on?

 

Maybe like this:

- make essences

- polish gems

- convert leather into leather strings

- convert bones or wood into the handle

- convert iron/steel/tit bars into a basic blade

- convert basic blade into a special blade using more bars/ess/coal etc.

(short, broad, long and XL blade)

- color handle and leather strings with flowers and some essences

- assemble all items to a sword with the chance of losses of every item

(e.g. leather strings break very often, gems can get lost...)

 

This can be done with the actual system but you need now more steps until you get one weapon.

 

And at every step you can fail and loose items. So that would slow down mass manufacturing.

 

Piper

[Roja]

The whole point is to change the system so it can be more fun. It is too easy, and too boring how it is now.

[Wytter]

That'd be status quo Piper. It wouldn't make the game less repetitive and it wouldn't make the game more challenging.

[Lyanna]

1) To make these changes acceptable to manufacturers, what they do must be important. Therefore, it is important for them to be the only source of access to these items. Remove all monster drops of books and equipment. It now becomes worthwhile to manufacture an item, no matter how long it takes, because that is the only way to get it.

 

2) By removing valuable drops from monsters, fighters (pure fighters, that is) are forced to rely on manufacturers for their equipment. This will slowly change the balance of money from the fighters to the manufacturers. To prevent it swinging too wildly to the other side, it is important to give fighters some source of high income as well, but something that cannot be used directly by them, but must be traded away. An example of this would be the serpent stone, and perhaps other jewels. (Monsters can collect shiny-looking small items... that's believable. Orcs reading books - THAT'S ridiculous...) Plain gold and silver rings are also an option for monster drops.

 

3) Remember that this system is designed to do two things: It is meant to make manufacturing more interesting, and it is meant to decrease the rate of production of items, so that the economy would be better balanced. It would actually be best for the economy for the failure rates to be fairly high - because this lowers the number of items out there, and hence, raises each individual item's prices. However, this doesn't mean that failure has to be the result of chance. Rather, it should depend on the player's skill at manipulating the tools of his trade. A manufacturer becomes a GOOD manufacturer, not solely because of high levels, but also because he's practised it well - he knows exactly what temperature to heat the forge up to, knows WHEN and HOW LONG to put the metals into the furnace, etc. You mess up on the timing, or the temperature, or whatever else - you fail. Which is only natural and realistic, anyway.

 

4) Yes, there will be other systems for the other skills that use the manu window (alch, summoning, potions, crafting). Most likely, we'll have to design them all and implement all of them together, to be balanced about this. Ideally, each system would be different - very much different, if possible. That way, people who have really practiced and specialised in their skill would know of certain techniques and "tricks of the trade" that will be unique to their own skill system. Be prepared for massive changes.

 

5) And remember, don't gripe about it if they end up unbalanced - it's bound to be unbalanced at first... we're just testing it, and slowly re-balancing. Looking for 1 constructive suggestion among 100 complaints isn't going to help.

 

-Lyn-

[Tripp9]

That process sounds too complicated for newbs to understand. But adding more ingredients to the weapons and armor will achieve a balance in the produced goods.

 

It still takes longer because you have to gather more usable material but in essence you won't be standing in line. You know people will stand there just to hog it and be cute.

 

So, in my belief, adding more, slightly harder to obtain, ingredients will achieve the same results.

[Roja]

 

So, in my belief, adding more, slightly harder to obtain, ingredients will achieve the same results.

Our purposes are not to only make it take longer, but as i've said before, to make the game more fun to play.