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Any goodness that you have seen in me, any kindness or love - they don't come from me, but from the reflection of God's nature shining in me.

 

How could it not come from you, if you have free will to do it?

 

 

teh banned 0n3na, you really should read what Lyanna said before making such rude remarks!

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Any goodness that you have seen in me, any kindness or love - they don't come from me, but from the reflection of God's nature shining in me.

 

How could it not come from you, if you have free will to do it?

 

 

teh banned 0n3na, you really should read what Lyanna said before making such rude remarks!

1. Good question.

2. It wasn't intented to be rude. I like Lyanna, Lyanna (I think) likes me so we are only discussing.

And before I said her research is quite shallow I've actually read it.

 

Regards.

Edited by Platyna

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1) I choose whether to submit to what God wants me to do, or not. The desire to do good and the nature of the goodness doesn't come from me, but I still have a choice whether or not I wish to reflect God's nature. Um... it's a bit like a light switch. The power doesn't come from the switch or the bulb, it comes from the source (God). Likewise, the bulb (my life) converts electricity to light (good/kind acts). But you still have a choice whether you want to shine or not, because of your switch (free will).

 

2) First, please note that I did say the words "basic" and "core", meaning that I wasn't going to go that much in-depth. However, Plat, since you seem to know so much about Christianity and Buddhism, perhaps you'd like to tell us what makes you think they are similar?

 

-Lyn-

 

P.S.

Okay I know nothing I am an idiot. Polish is islam country we have no idea what the heck christian religion is and USA people knows better. :-]

 

Actually, I'm not from the USA at all - and neither is Teranoz, if I'm not wrong. I'm in Singapore, South-East Asia, where there are four major "religions" in the populace - Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism and Christianity - not to mention a whole bunch of smaller ones. About 1/3 of my extended family are Buddhists, actually.

Edited by Lyanna

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CONTENT DELETED due there is no freedom of speech.

 

#beam me up I said...Bzzzzium...gone.

 

Regards.

Edited by Platyna

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born cristian but currently studying other religions...i mean how can one make an informed decision if you dont know all of the choices or what they stand for?

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born cristian but currently studying other religions...i mean how can one make an informed decision if you dont know all of the choices or what they stand for?

thats exactly what i've been thinking.. i've been brought up Catholic and through school i've learned only about the Catholic church and how much better it is etc etc... i'm really interested in learning about other religions, especially Protestant religions, like Lyanna said

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born cristian but currently studying other religions...i mean how can one make an informed decision if you dont know all of the choices or what they stand for?

thats exactly what i've been thinking.. i've been brought up Catholic and through school i've learned only about the Catholic church and how much better it is etc etc... i'm really interested in learning about other religions, especially Protestant religions, like Lyanna said

:lol: WooHooo!!! someone actually likes my way of thinking!!! time to celebrate!!! ;)

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CONTENT DELETED due there is no freedom of speech.

oh really?

Yup Roja, honey, anyway I still love you. :-) *hugs* *kiss*

 

Regards.

Edited by Platyna

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I don't believe in any religion because basicly this is how i see it,you live,you die,and your barried or burnt to ashes

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i dont' wanna type of a layed over view of satan worshipers...

 

The Satanic cult was started as worshipping "satan" as the force inside us that is our freedom and such, for them i had respect not this new. "OMG cut yourself and become one with evil" stuff. I was juggling aroudn religions a little bit, but my friend steve has perhaps had the biggest impact on me, that Jesus did die for us and so on.

 

 

anyways japanese kinda duel wield religions (how not sure but my japanese friend kimiko told me soemthing O.o)

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i have no religion, i am a godless bastard in and out of el

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As most on here are probably already aware, I'm Wiccan.

 

I'm not going to get started in any sort of debate or discussion. Because I will never stop, and never shut up.

 

I will mention one thing, though... visit the Church of Lucifer online. (Website is... ~goes and looks up~ http://www.churchoflucifer.org/ (doh!)

 

Most of what they have to say on there is actually very intelligent, thoughtful, and totally lacking in human sacrifice or unholy orgies.

 

I would especially like for you to read it if you take one look and refuse to read it. I KNOW that sounds paradoxal. Allow me to explain.

 

I happen to have a devout Catholic co-worker. (Friend as well, of sorts.) One of the first times we ever talked, we were "discussing" my Pentacle (which hangs about my neck and I never go ANYWHERE without.) I attempted to explain the significance of it to her. I even attempted to tell her that it had used to be a Christian symbol. (For a more detailled discussion on the pentacle, check this thread. She absolutely refused to listen, to look at it... she said she respected other people's religions, but at the same time she told me that my pentacle - my religious symbol - "disgusted" her and that (this one is paraphrased a bit) she was sorry that I had been tricked into wearing a symbol of the devil.

 

The moral of the story is, please, the more closed-minded you are, the more I encourage you to liberate your mind, and to at least be aware of "the other side", so to speak. Sun-Tzu, one of the greatest minds to ever live, said to "Know thine enemy as thyself". (Well, it was actually in Chinese, but whatever... I've never been able to get a good grasp on the language.)

 

Anyhow, that is my rant for today... I'm more than happy to field any questions anybody might have.

 

Regards,

 

Kenjutsushi Kyuketsuki

The Vampiric Swordsman

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I'm a witch.

 

Note: Not a Wiccan. A witch. As in those people that actually do bad things. Not the fluffy sugary "Oh my Goddess I'm not evil" piece of crap that is becoming witchcraft.

 

And I don't give a rat's... tail about the Rede so don't tell me I'm anti-witchy.

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As most on here are probably already aware, I'm Wiccan.

 

I'm not going to get started in any sort of debate or discussion. Because I will never stop, and never shut up.

 

I will mention one thing, though... visit the Church of Lucifer online. (Website is... ~goes and looks up~ http://www.churchoflucifer.org/ (doh!)

 

Most of what they have to say on there is actually very intelligent, thoughtful, and totally lacking in human sacrifice or unholy orgies.

 

I would especially like for you to read it if you take one look and refuse to read it. I KNOW that sounds paradoxal. Allow me to explain.

 

I happen to have a devout Catholic co-worker. (Friend as well, of sorts.) One of the first times we ever talked, we were "discussing" my Pentacle (which hangs about my neck and I never go ANYWHERE without.) I attempted to explain the significance of it to her. I even attempted to tell her that it had used to be a Christian symbol. (For a more detailled discussion on the pentacle, check this thread. She absolutely refused to listen, to look at it... she said she respected other people's religions, but at the same time she told me that my pentacle - my religious symbol - "disgusted" her and that (this one is paraphrased a bit) she was sorry that I had been tricked into wearing a symbol of the devil.

 

The moral of the story is, please, the more closed-minded you are, the more I encourage you to liberate your mind, and to at least be aware of "the other side", so to speak. Sun-Tzu, one of the greatest minds to ever live, said to "Know thine enemy as thyself". (Well, it was actually in Chinese, but whatever... I've never been able to get a good grasp on the language.)

 

Anyhow, that is my rant for today... I'm more than happy to field any questions anybody might have.

 

Regards,

 

Kenjutsushi Kyuketsuki

The Vampiric Swordsman

I have a "friend" whos Wiccan. I ridicule her every opprotunity that I can.

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Um... it seems as if a lot of people are confused about what Christianity really is, or what its core beliefs are. It's something I find quite common in Western countries, where people have mixed up the doctrines of Christianity with the practices of politics, humanity, and "being a good person". Perhaps I'd better explain further then and set the record straight. (Warning... very very long post ahead). But first, a short summary of some of the differences between Buddhism and Christianity:

 

Some Basic Differences Between Buddhism and Christianity

 

1) The Concept of the Higher Power. Christians believe in an Almighty, Personal Creator of the Universe. Buddhists do not believe in a Personal Creator, but rather in an impersonal Force, or Order to the Universe. (By this, I mean that "God" is a Person to Christians, and a Universal Law to Buddhists)

2) Eternity. Buddhists believe in the karmic debt - meaning that you are reincarnated into your present form, based on your actions in your previous life. Eternity is spent in this world, unless you have achieved Nirvana. Christians, on the other hand, believe in only one life on this earth, and Eternity spent with God in Heaven and the New Earth. There is no concept of reincarnation at all.

3) The Purpose of Life. According to the 4 Noble Truths of Buddhism, life is full of suffering, that is caused by desire. The ultimate purpose in life is to cease the suffering, by ceasing to desire. To reach this state of Nirvana (the cessation of desire), a person should follow the Eightfold Path, and hence become a Buddha. To Christians, the purpose of life is a restored relationship with God, and willing obedience to His commands. The emphasis is not on the Law, but on the relationship.

 

There are more differences than these, of course, but I won't have time to cover them all. Now, let me explain Christianity in greater detail, according to how I understand it. (Please note that I might end up using rather dramatic and emotive language - not because I'm preaching, ranting or flaming, but because I'm trying to depict accurately the significance of certain things in Christian belief.)

 

 

The Core of Christian Belief

 

Man was created in God's image, for the primary purpose of enjoying a meaningful and joyful relationship with our Creator, worshipping Him freely. God created Man out of His vast love and gave us free will, that we may choose to love Him, and appreciate His marvelous works of Creation. Love is not real love if it is forced... that is primarily why God gave us free will to choose whether to believe in Him and love Him or not.

 

Mankind, in the form of Adam and Eve, sinned against God, by deliberately disobeying His commandments. This is the true nature of Sin - it is NOT merely the "doing of bad things", but rather the choice to disobey God's will for our lives, and seeking to run our lives without interference from Him. All people have inherited this "sin nature" - all have chosen, at one point in time or another, to decide for themselves what is best for them and how THEY want to live their lives, free from God. We royally messed up. And because of our tendency to avoid blaming ourselves, and in our pride, we started to change the concepts of sin and salvation to suit ourselves. But sin is not doing bad things - sin is seeking to run your own life without heed to God, and not acknowledging Him as our Creator and Lord

 

Because of His commitment to the freedom of our choice, God let us depart from his Presence, and forfeit our rights to His protection. If you want to rebel against your Divine Father, and leave his house to get your own way in life, He will let you - because He respects your freedom of choice, and He wants you to love Him for His own sake. But then, YOU must protect yourself against the Evil One. (And that explains the evils in the world today - people have rebelled against God, have forfeited the right to His Protection and Guidance, and have suffered for it.) Hell is not a punishment for sin - it is the natural consequence of it. If you want to live life away from God forever, God will let you do so, even though it breaks His heart. (But what would an Eternity away from the source of all Goodness and Love be like?)

 

God, in His mercy and love, wanted to save mankind from their own destruction, and restore them back to His arms, so He was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice. He first gave the Law to Moses and the Israelites (the Ten Commandments, among others) to help them understand how far they have fallen, and how powerless they are to redeem themselves. He then sent His only Son (which was also Himself - look into the concept of the Trinity if you're interested) to redeem us, by paying the price of our sins Himself. God literally died and went to Hell for us, because He loved us and wanted us back safe. By doing so, Jesus has fulfilled the requirements needed by justice, and God is able to overlook our sins and forgive us, because we are covered with the innocent blood of His Son.

 

And today, God still offers everyone that freedom of choice - would you accept his gift? Are you willing to acknowledge that you are fallen and incapable of saving yourself from destruction? Are you willing to accept that God had to come down, and die, so that His original purpose for your life - a joyful and meaningful love relationship with Him - may be restored? Are you willing to admit that the only goodness you have in your life comes from God, working in you to change you into the image of His Son - the perfect Man? That is what is meant by the Christian concept of salvation. It is free, but it was costly. God is not laying down a set of rules for us to follow, and punishing or rewarding us according to how well we do. God is trying His best to save us from the consequences of our own foolish rebellion against Him, without compromising our ability to choose freely.

 

Therefore, Christians today are to realise that they were once sinners and rebels, saved and forgiven only through the grace of God. That's why we reach out - to bring the Good News of redemption and restoration back to a suffering humanity lost in its pride. None of us are perfect, and we all have the temptation to fall back into our old ways at times - but God is patiently working in us to change us to be more like Him.

 

 

Note from myself: This may seem like preaching from a soapbox, and condemning others. I truly don't mean it as such. I'll straightaway admit that I sin as much as any of you. I have rebelled against God myself. I am not clean, nor holy, nor pure. But I don't have to be, in order to be saved. I accepted that Jesus was my Savior, and that it was His innocence, not mine, that saved me from the consequences of my sins. And now, I try to listen and obey to God's voice, guiding me to become the person He wants me to be. Any goodness that you have seen in me, any kindness or love - they don't come from me, but from the reflection of God's nature shining in me.

 

 

Frequently Asked Questions:

 

Christianity seems like a religion for the weak and powerless. Why should I believe in it?

 

I make no apologies for that. To Christians, all of humanity is weak and powerless - without God. We delude ourselves into thinking that we can control our destinies - that God is just a matter of choice with us. And in a sense, we are right - God does give us freedom of choice. But that doesn't mean that all choices are equally good or equally right. I truly believe that there IS such a thing as absolute Truth, and absolute Goodness. The trouble is, we can't see it, because we do not want to admit that we are wrong and bad.

 

What about people who have never heard of Christianity or Christ? Does that mean that they are condemned/lost forever?

 

To say that we are fallen does not mean that we are totally depraved (well, not all of us, at least). We do still have remnants of what was once perfect in us. A conscience, ideas of morality, ideas of beauty - these things still exist, although I personally believe that they may have been weakened or greatly marred. God reveals Himself in the world to those who are truly seeking to know Him. (Romans 1: 18-25) There is still hope for those that may not have heard of Christ's message, because God's plan of salvation is open to all who are willing to listen to Him speak in their hearts and minds, and in the world around them. But the message is hard to swallow. And people would rather follow their own desires and proud natures, rather than come humbly to God in repentance. (I have experienced this myself, so don't take it as condemnatory - I'm just stating an oobservation). We humans, knowing the truth, hide it in order to make ourselves feel better.

 

That sounds very noble and everything, but the actions of Christians don't bear out what they preach. What about the Crusades? What about the Inquisition and the religious wars of the Dark Ages? What about the Salem witch trials and modern-day Christian hypocrites?

 

I personally feel that "religion" has been a source of a lot of grief to people. It has been a recurring trend throughout history, especially Western history, and it is sad to see. May I suggest that the people responsible for those blemishes on Christian history were fully to blame for their actions - but also, that they were not truly the followers of Jesus? A lot of power-hungry people have infiltrated the Church and used it for their own purposes throughout history, especially at those times where power in the Church meant power in politics. It is sad that the church is now struggling under the burden of these past recriminations. I do believe that the Catholic Church has issued a formal apology, though, for the Crusades and other crimes committed against humanity in the name of Christ. But I'm sad to see that people have become so blinded by these that they have failed to see the other side of things. (Or perhaps, it's because they don't WANT to... ;) )

 

What inspired Mother Teresa to spend most of her life in service to the poor and needy in India? Which God did the idiots who founded Oxford and Cambridge, who founded Princeton and Harvard and Yale, believe in? Is religion - particularly Christianity - truly the opium of the people? Is that why thousands of Christians die under torture every day in the world, particularly in atheistic countries? Is that what pushes weak-minded missionaries to climb the Himalayas, to go through the jungles of Southeast Asia, the savannahs of Africa, the deserts of the Middle East and the rainforests of South America to reach long-lost tribes? Christianity has had a proud tradition of service and martyrdom to the people of this world. Why is it that this is hidden, while the martyrs of the world to the name of Christianity are publicly brought up time and time again?

 

 

Science has proven what the Bible says to be false. Or, the Bible was compiled/written by uneducated men in the past, who were superstitious. Or, the Bible was compiled and written by humans, not by God. Why should I believe in it?

 

About science: I find that most people who bring this up are laymen, or non-scientists. People who are trained scientifically have a certain care with how they use and define technical terms ("Evolution" is a prime example - people just throw that around, without realising that the real argument is about the concept and extent of Natural Selection instead). But in any case, if you're truly asking this question, I encourage you to dive into the world of science, and really understand the facts and research before making a claim in either direction. Be open, and test all evidence for both veracity (truthfulness) and consistency. If you want to use science in your argument, make sure you understand both its scope as well as its limits. (Try to explain the concepts of beauty or love, through science, to get an idea of what I'm talking about... which is the correct version - the lover's or the psychologist's?)

 

The truth and historicity of the Bible is a very very long debate that has been going on for generations. I won't get into all the details, but I can deal with some basic misconceptions at least. There are different "versions" of the Bible, not because it is the result of human writings only, but because of a combination of changes in language, and small copying errors in the past. However, these differences are slight (something like changes of a minor word or phrasing in a relatively unimportant verse). The main message still stays intact, and is threaded throughout the course of 4,000 years of history - from Moses' time, until the days of the early Christian Church. Over 20 different authors are identified in the Bible, and yet, the message is strangely uniform. Is this truly the work of diverse men, or a Spirit behind them, guiding them in what to write and what to choose. If you believe that there is no such Spirit, then obviously, these writers have compiled a meaningless book, and the message is coincidental. If there is such a Spirit behind the writers and compilers of the Bible who has been guiding its development throughout history, then the message is of great importance. I suggest you read up more on the subject, if you are truly interested.

 

Basically, do some more research. :D We (Christians) are not afraid of the truth, if that is really what you are seeking.

 

 

At the end of this, I realise that I may not have answered everything, or that this may sound like a sermon or a rant. It's not. It's truly not. It is simply what I believe in, and have studied and lived out throughout my life. It is my personal experience of God. I don't seek to push people towards Christ - I believe each one must make their own decision. I just reveal the truth, as far as I can see it.

 

-Lyn-

amen

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Yes, this is a flame free topic, and it would be nice if people could remain civilized. That having said, I'd like to finally respond to Lyanna's post. It's a shame she's no longer in the Lands, and I hope she will read this. Please take this only as my personal vision on the opinion posted above. I'm not trying to belittle anyone's religious feelings here.

On Christianity's beliefs

Man was created in God's image' date=' for the primary purpose of enjoying a meaningful and joyful relationship with our Creator, worshipping Him freely. God created Man out of His vast love and gave us free will, that we may choose to love Him, and appreciate His marvelous works of Creation. Love is not real love if it is forced... that is primarily why God gave us free will to choose whether to believe in Him and love Him or not. [/quote']

While I whole-heartedly agree with the statement that love is not real if it is forced, I cannot subscribe to the doctrine of free will. At least I cannot unify it with an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful god. Note that if you're willing to drop any of these qualifications, the following point becomes moot, but: if a god is all-loving, he wants me to believe in him (*). If hes all-knowing, he knows if I believe in him, and how to make me believe. If he's all-powerful, he can make me believe in him. Since I don't believe in any particular deity, I can only conclude that he doesn't care whether I believe or not, he doesn't know if I believe, or that he's unable to do anything about it. Free will is a nice concept, but if the god knows for certain what I will choose (all-knowing as most Christians portray him to be), my choice is limited to the one, fixed, option that has been set since the outcome was known.

 

(*) Of course, if the god doesn't care if we believe or not, than this whole thread is meaningless.

Mankind' date=' in the form of Adam and Eve, sinned against God, by deliberately disobeying His commandments. This is the true nature of Sin - it is NOT merely the "doing of bad things", but rather the choice to disobey God's will for our lives, and seeking to run our lives without interference from Him. All people have inherited this "sin nature" - all have chosen, at one point in time or another, to decide for themselves what is best for them and how THEY want to live their lives, free from God. [/quote']

And that is a good thing. The best way to learn is to make mistakes (if any mistake wqas made at all).

We royally messed up.

Excuse me? Why do you say so? Don't get me wrong' date=' I don't want to offend you or anyone else, but where did [i']you[/i] get the authority to decide if I, or anyone else, messed up? Note that for "you", you can replace "the Church", or any religious sect in general.

And because of our tendency to avoid blaming ourselves' date=' and in our pride, we started to change the concepts of sin and salvation to suit ourselves. But sin is not doing bad things - sin is seeking to run your own life without heed to God, and not acknowledging Him as our Creator and Lord.[/quote']

I guess in that sense I'm a sinner. The only problem with the above statement is that it makes no sense at all when you take it outside Christianity. If you start out by assuming there is no Christian god, it would be rather foolish to label disbelief in this particular deity as a Bad Thing .

Because of His commitment to the freedom of our choice' date='[/quote']

Which cannot exist if it's known what I will decide

God let us depart from his Presence' date=' and forfeit our rights to His protection. If you want to rebel against your Divine Father, and leave his house to get your own way in life, He will let you - because He respects your freedom of choice, and He wants you to love Him for His own sake. But then, YOU must protect yourself against the Evil One. (And that explains the evils in the world today - people have rebelled against God, have forfeited the right to His Protection and Guidance, and have suffered for it.) Hell is not a punishment for sin - it is the natural consequence of it. If you want to live life away from God forever, God will let you do so, even though it breaks His heart. (But what would an Eternity away from the source of all Goodness and Love be like?)[/quote']

This concept of Hell sounds very Dantesque. But really, just try the following experiment: imagine, just for a few minutes, that your god does not exist, that everything that you've learned to believe over the years about him/her/it is false. Just imagine, that it's not true. Than you will see that again, the above is meaningless and void. You ask "But what would an Eternity away from the source of all Goodness and Love be like?". If there's no source of Good and Evil, it will be like any other Eternity. My personal opinion is that since I won't be around to notice, I'd better make the best of this life. I have no proof of that, but at least I don't have to make thing up about an afterlife without having any proof or even evidnece that such a thing exists.

The next two paragraphs are basically more of the same, so I skip them, except that I'd like to remark that a belief system that requires you (and not me personally, but everyone) to say that you're basically evil will never convince me

Therefore' date=' Christians today are to realise that they were once sinners and rebels, saved and forgiven only through the grace of God. [/quote']

Actually, I think that most people that call themselves Christian will never stop to think about that, let alone acknowledge that they are sinners.

That's why we reach out - to bring the Good News of redemption and restoration back to a suffering humanity lost in its pride. None of us are perfect' date=' and we all have the temptation to fall back into our old ways at times - but God is patiently working in us to change us to be more like Him. [/quote']

What I really, really cannot understand is where the need for the god guiding you stems from. Why do you say it is God guiding you when you are trying to improve yourself? If there is, as you say free will (which is impossible, bla bla bla), why can't you give credit to yourself for trying to be a better person. Where is your dignity as a normal human person, to believe in yourself? Another thing I dislike about more evangelical persons is how fast they can switch from opinion to certainty, without proving their claims. I realise Lyanna has honestly tried to write a balanced overview of Christianity, but even she cannot escape from the temptation of associating herself with the beliefs she just presented.

 

On to the FAQ. I'll skip the first one, since it doesn't really interest me :)

What about people who have never heard of Christianity or Christ? Does that mean that they are condemned/lost forever?

Hmmmz...that's axctaully quite an interesting question. It's also about as old as Christianity is' date=' but let's see...

To say that we are fallen does not mean that we are totally depraved (well, not all of us, at least).

Now there's a relief. Maybe there's still hope for me after all :D Of course, I was raise Roman Catholic, so I don't have the excuse of ignorance...

We do still have remnants of what was once perfect in us. A conscience' date=' ideas of morality, ideas of beauty - these things still exist, although I personally believe that they may have been weakened or greatly marred.[/quote']

I'm sorry, I will interrupt here, because I think this is one of the most intersting points made in this post. Why in the world would you think so?

God reveals Himself in the world to those who are truly seeking to know Him. (Romans 1: 18-25)

Although the Bible contains some pretty interesting stories (Lot' date=' anyone?), it's meaningless [i']outside of Christianity[/i]

There is still hope for those that may not have heard of Christ's message' date='[/quote']

Damn, not for me?

because God's plan of salvation is open to all who are willing to listen to Him speak in their hearts and minds' date=' and in the world around them. But the message is hard to swallow. And people would rather follow their own desires and proud natures, rather than come humbly to God in repentance. (I have experienced this myself, so don't take it as condemnatory - I'm just stating an oobservation). We humans, knowing the truth, hide it in order to make ourselves feel better.[/quote']

This is another interesting point. You write that we human "know the truth", presumably meaning that (all) humans know the Christian god is the only right one. I know for a fact that not all humans know that, not even the ones that have been taught in the Christian tradition. I think, that without furtther evidence for your god, that is just an arrogant statement to make (which would make you, by extension, a sinner, but let's not go into that....)

Skipping faq nr 3

Science has proven what the Bible says to be false. Or' date=' the Bible was compiled/written by uneducated men in the past, who were superstitious. Or, the Bible was compiled and written by humans, not by God. Why should I believe in it?[/quote']

Science (and logic) has proven that there are errors in the Bible. Denying that is just silly.

About science: I find that most people who bring this up are laymen' date=' or non-scientists.[/quote']

The mere fact that the person bringing the subject up is not a scientist, does not alter the fact that he may be right.

People who are trained scientifically have a certain care with how they use and define technical terms ("Evolution" is a prime example - people just throw that around' date=' without realising that the real argument is about the concept and extent of Natural Selection instead).[/quote']

This is a great example, since I have seen many, maby fundamental Christians confuse evolution with abiogenesis. Let me state it explicitly once more: evolution has nothing to do with life coming from non-life, and taken in a biological context, has nothing to do with the life cycle of stars and galaxies.

But in any case' date=' if you're truly asking this question,[/quote']

Well, it's not the only question I ask, but yes, it's one of tyhem. It's also not an unreasonable question to ask: if the fundamental texts that are often cited as evidence for Christianity contain statements that can objectively shown to be false, why shoukd we trust other claims in this text without evidence?

I encourage you to dive into the world of science' date=' and really understand the facts and research before making a claim in either direction. [/quote']

I did. If anything, it drove me further away from Christianity (or any other religion).

Be open' date=' and test all evidence for both veracity (truthfulness) and consistency. If you want to use science in your argument, make sure you understand both its scope as well as its limits. (Try to explain the concepts of beauty or love, through science, to get an idea of what I'm talking about... which is the correct version - the lover's or the psychologist's?)[/quote']

Subjective quantities like that cannot themselves be measured. Do you honestly think that a lover has a better grip on love (overall) than a psychologist? You don't say it explicitly, but the text surely suggests it. What about beauty? Does a lover have a better grip on beauty than the psychologist? Even if the object of his/her love is universally reagrded ad the ugliest in the world? Science is not about trying to measure emotions (though unfortunately, some people claim to do so). In everything outside of the most hard-core funcdamental sciences, a scientist can do no more than collect statistics, and find trends that in general seem to influence one or the other quantity. Any honest scientist will admit that statistics do not apply ro individual case, but at least a careful study of trends can show what would help the overall population. What does religion have to offer?

The truth and historicity of the Bible is a very very long debate that has been going on for generations. I won't get into all the details' date=' but I can deal with some basic misconceptions at least. There are different "versions" of the Bible, not because it is the result of human writings only, but because of a combination of changes in language, and small copying errors in the past. However, these differences are slight (something like changes of a minor word or phrasing in a relatively unimportant verse). The main message [/quote']

is interpreted differently by different persons.

still stays intact' date=' and is threaded throughout the course of 4,000 years of history - from Moses' time, until the days of the early Christian Church. Over 20 different authors are identified in the Bible, and yet, the message is strangely uniform.[/quote']

Really? So it really is allright for me to kill all Canaanites, men, women and children alike?

Is this truly the work of diverse men' date=' [/quote']

Oh, most certainly.

or a Spirit behind them' date=' guiding them in what to write and what to choose. If you believe that there is no such Spirit, then obviously, these writers have compiled a meaningless book, and the message is coincidental.[/quote']

Thank you for conceding to that point. In fact, it's even worse. Different interpreters on the Bible cannot agree on one uniform message.

If there is such a Spirit behind the writers and compilers of the Bible who has been guiding its development throughout history' date=' then the message is of great importance. I suggest you read up more on the subject, if you are truly interested.[/quote']

I am, but there is no message. Really, apart from basic human interactions, there is none. Thoise interactions are much more readily explained by the desire of a population to keep itself intact (that's why especially in the Old Testament you'll find that it's okay to kill people outsode your group) than through some divine interference.

Basically' date=' do some more research.  We (Christians) are not afraid of the truth, if that is really what you are seeking.[/quote']

Some aren't, and I most of those I hold in high regard. Some, though, prefer to close their eyes to anything that challenges their beliefs, and that is just plain sad.

 

This has turned out to be too long a post. I don't suppose anyone will read this, but for those that do: don't feel offended if I come across as somewhat harsh towards Christianity. I'm somewhat cynical towards religion, not towards all of it's adherents.

 

Grum

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