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StormSinger

Nh And P2p

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Here goes folks. This post is intended to be constructive and a suggestion though it is going to cause *some* of you some discomfort, I am sorry watching the discomfort of others has made it necessary.

Ent and developers, I assume you are making a game you hope will make you money. If this is not the case then please delete this and think no more on it. To make this money you hope you will have loyal players who will pay for the privelage of a new map and new items and new races. Because of the design of this game chat is intergral so mods and NH are intergral as well.

Ok take a look at your game through a set of fresh eyes from a person who can easily afford P2P and looks for a P2P environment.

Chat run by mods and NH maybe one in the same who knows? Mods attempt to keep the channel on topic presumably and to assist in game play issues...presumably.

What i see is that if a mod likes any player no matter how ugly or disagreeable nothing is said but if a new player is to wander off topic *no i dont often* then they get slapped down threatened with muting *denoobing* in noobie channel and other assorted game nightmares.

Your channels are run like frats or exclusive cliques *through this n00bies eyes*...you are in or you are out....if you are in you get the slack if you arent you dont.

I have confronted various NH and mods over this issue several times *no it wasnt me getting the slapping* yes, they know it is wrong yes they know it goes on but...it is how things are eh?

You want strangers to pay for this?

...is this a business...or not? If it is no matter if you like or dislike said player rules apply talk of paying ent for "this" or "that" doesnt exist in a successful game for business. Talk of NH or Mod favoritism doesnt exist...because the business cant flourish if it does.

I have been told many times that if i suck up to this mod...or that mod i can maybe get NH powers *who the hell wants them* or get slack in this or that...

Was this really what you intended. Is it how you will run your business cause if so then i will take my dollars elsewhere.

I assume those of you sucking up and in will have something to say about this but those of you who expect to see the $$ why dont you create an acct and sit in a couple of your channels wander around your game land and REALLY see it for what it is not for an hour but a couple of days.

This is a suggestion and i hope that aside from the protests and the i never do this posts you can see the truth in it from one new to your land. Impartial moderators are imperative to a successful business environment...otherwise it will be up to you to hope the ones who are well liked long time players can pay and will provide adequate income for you...and hope the ones that get dissed cant and you arent losing dollars.

BTW i rarely ever get bothered by mods I am usually quiet but those whom your mods are slapping down while ignoring the well liked ones....well can they pay ? maybe often they can...will they pay for that environment, hmm i doubt it.

Mods take this as you will some of you truly try others of you dont. I am trying to make a game i like worth paying for because as it stands right now the only ONLY people who might pay for this are in the "favored" list. I am neutral, up til not not on anyone's bad list *this post changes things i know* BUT ...is this a business or an exclusive clique where you suck up for powers to slap stupid noobs down and leave old timers alone or a business where all players are treated the same because all contribute or will contribute equally to your business success?

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It seems to me that what you are suggesting would be akin to having an "enforcer" type boss standing over your shoulder at work. While this may be effective in cutting down the overall level of rule breaking and off-topic(ness) B) It would make for a sterile environment.

 

The cliques (for those of you who don't know what a clique is, it is a group... generally a group of friends.) that you have noticed are established not so much out of favouritism (although that can arise from it) but from the normal establishment of rapport which is an inherent part of human life.

 

For those who we know, like and trust, we will always be more lenient as we understand that no offense is meant. Having said that, If offensive behaviour is found even from those that the mods favour, those people also will be (I have seen it happen) kicked/muted/den00bed.

 

In terms of this being a problem for people who think it is unfair when they see 2 people being treated differently, I suppose the only way to get around this would be to have the mods on a continually shifting roster, so that they rarely see the same people often enough to become familiar with them, and hence favour them. At the same time, these mods would be unable to play the game when not in their mod character mode so that they could not gain 'friends' within the game to avoid the cliques.

 

There would be no incentive for these mods to work in such a manner as they are for the most part volunteers, and if they can't gain friends while they are online, then what's the point?

 

I suppose what I am saying is that in the scheme of things, having a human approach instead of the enforcer is in my opinion, a more agreeable method. Remeber, the mods have a right to find the game enjoyable aswell :D

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I don't think favortism is shown, just we know who tends to be good and who tends to be bad.

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I don't think favortism is shown, just we know who tends to be good and who tends to be bad.

I think it's a situation of "earning your bullshit". Once the mods / nhs get to know you and how you behave, they're more (or less in some cases) lenient.

 

A noob will get warned early and often so they don't start down the wrong track, whereas an experienced player who knows the rules might get away with more (or less) because the administration knows how far that person will go.

 

I think I just repeated what Lord_Vermor said, but I used more words so my explaination is better. <_<

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*smiles* i never get chastised by mods. Wish it were so for ALL of the other well behaved persons. Wish it were not so for the for all of the mod's friends. Wish that these individuals could not come on ANY moderated channel, call us a bunch of idiots freaking idiots to go back to *insert game here* the helpers a bunch of sucker uppers and tell them to go back to rune scape and then utter a few obscenities do some back slapping and start in on the newbies again. i wonder what these people did to earn their gold stars? That is one ony one a single instance of the many that have occurred as i sat playing the game saying little and watching. This was a suggestion something for you mods to look at something for those who plan to make this a profitable enterprise to look at. Something that *could* improve game play but may or may not depends on who is saying "i dont do that" and who is being honest. What happens is totally on you people, win lose or draw... fail or succeed depends on you ...not on us newbies.

When it comes down to it I am asking the devs and people behind this project, the ones who will profit or lose by actions of others, do you honestly believe folks will tolerate such treatment in a P2P environment ...perhaps in a beta but will you have it beta forever?

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I think I know the incident StormSinger is referring to. I've also heard of several other incidents like this. They mostly concern either oldbies, who have played an important part in EL in the past (hence, some of the newer NHs and mods might feel a bit tentative about stepping on them), or middle-bies who don't really care much about being denoobed/muted/kicked (and so the NH's know it's fairly useless). If the NH/mod does live up to principle and slap down anyone who offends, they may drive away the older, established players and/or cause flame wars to erupt.

 

What to do in those kinds of situations, I don't know though.

 

-Lyn-

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I must agree wholeheartedly with Storm, and from personal experience I find the system to be unfairly balanced. I came to EL having experience of this type of game, and more than willing to help out where I could.

 

I have helped many people on this game, both financially and more generally, taking time out from my game to show where places are, talking through new users, and answering questions on channel 1.

 

I found out how little that counts when I told a joke that one of the mods found offensive because I used the correct anatomical term for backside, and was told I was on a mute list. Someone else at the same time as me was spamming the channel, quite badly in my opinion, and I commented on the fact that I had been threatened with being muted, and the other player was not. His was by far worse than mine, but when I challenged the mod I got a second 'strike' for daring to voice my opinion.

 

I was told by the mod that I would be on her 'to be muted' list until I had shown that I had done between 5 and 10 good acts. I explained that I do that much and more in the average day, but it counted for nothing. Now I won't help unless I feel like it, and believe me that is nowhere near as much as it could be.

 

I do help people, but only someone who happens to be in my line of sight when they ask the question, and that is how it will stay until I get a quantifiable explanation as to why I have been treated as if I go around all day summoning fluffy bunnies at beam and taking the bags of the people that die.

 

I am more than willing to show my chat log if requested, including PM's to and from the mod to show the conversation, and let everyone see whether I felt justified in my outrage with the mod in question, and the unfair treatment I was shown.

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Guest Anchesenamon

Mod? It is a abreviation of moderator? The problem is that moderators are like the police and they are never liked. :lol: I am sitting on the internet alot and when I have a problem with some moderator - when he will not accept my picture in a gallery or cut my post - I hate them. I know they do what they have to do but I still dislike them. And who is NH?

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If you know me in game LV you know i am infallibly polite to anyone even those i might not hold in high esteem be they mod or fellow newbie. The incidents exist they show favoritism though i have never been on the bad end of them. Deny them ignore them do wht you will but the problem exists. Ignoring it wont make it go away. Saying i am impolite at any time would be an untruth saying i am mistaken would be silly since I was not the only one present at the multiple instances these things occurred. You, yourself have been present in several instances where newbie gets slapped for topic or for being *stupid* and less than a minute later an old buddy comes to do some back slapping and some denigrating of newbs not in pm but on channel.

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Mod? It is a abreviation of moderator? The problem is that moderators are like the police and they are never liked. :lol: I am sitting on the internet alot and when I have a problem with some moderator - when he will not accept my picture in a gallery or cut my post - I hate them. I know they do what they have to do but I still dislike them. And who is NH?

lol but they dont bother me...they do bother people equally polite who get on their bad side...again i bring the issue to...is this the buddy system or will it be a paying enterprise? If it will be a business then the Moderators NHs or any of you need to be polite to all not just your buds...you need to enforce such rules as are deemed necessary equally if you dont then you need to find enough people your moderators DO like to make it a paying enterprise. I can not imagine ANYONE in their right mind paying for a game where this is not done. I am not saying all newbies or new persons or middlebies or older players are nice or evil or polite or impolite i am saying treatment depends totally on IF a given moderator likes this individual enough to not enforce rules or dislikes them enough to enforce them mercilessly.

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I am playing this game for quite some time now and I wanna respond to this.

When I was a newbie I spend most of my time in channel one until I was experienced enough when it cmes to playing the game. Some people helped me in those days and some did not. Most of the helpers in 'the old days' have unfortunately quit the game.

 

After that starting period I switched to channel 3: the market channel in order to sell my stuff to other people. The channel is most of the time much too chaotic simply because some people had to share their thoughts in there. I have seen a lot of bullying taking place at that channel. Some time ago I decided to stay away from market channel simply because I prefer not to listen to the stuff that goes on in there. If I wanna have a chat with some one I can do that by talking to my guild members or chatting with some people on another channel. I only go to marketchannel to sell some stuff but I leave the channel after the bargain.

Why? Because I have more fun this way. I don't feel like I have to listen to other people's stories when I don't want to.

 

I have entered newbie channel in the last few weeks just to listen what is the talk there. I don't think it is as bad in there as it is on market but the same kind of behaviour takes place there.

 

One of the things that bothered me the most is the behaviour of both newbie helpers and mods. Iso directing newbies to other channels (like newbie channel or general chat channels) they are told to shut up. The same mods/nh are talking off topic at the same time and this simply doesn't sound fair in my book. I mentioned this twice on the channel (of course in a polite way: I am not playing the game to offend some one) I was in and I got immediate threads about being kicked. I would have preferred an answer but I have the feeling the mods feel threatened and when they do they (ab)use their power to mute you.

 

No no, you won't see me using mod/nh directed channels again unless I wanna sell some stuff.

 

Note: Not all of the mods/nhs act like this. There are a few mods out there that are doing a very good job out there. I want to thank Lyanna for helping newbies out and doing a perfect job as a newbiehelper. I am pretty sure if all mods would be like her this game would be heaven. :D

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Thank you Wolf for your post it was well thought out and very precise. I appreciate hearing from someone as thoughtful as yourself that a problem does exist. Since i got as i expected a lot of errrm denials and disclaimers about earning the right to behave poorly.

But from your post what i hear is...there is nothing that can/will be done. This is not MY vision alone this is a playable environment where it makes BUSINESS sense *ignoring the humanity of the issue* to control your moderators and NH to insist on at least a minimum standard of behaviour from all.

If i understand you correctly and i may not, you are saying until P2P put up or pack up?

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Well..something you have to understand here is that this game is NOT a business-not yet anyway..MAYBE in 6months or so. We do not make much money here, and what you are asking means to have some full time responsible people-that you really only get if you pay for them to work for you.

 

Currently we rely on some nice people that volunteer their time to moderate channels..i can't expect them to be perfect.

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Nor can I roja nor do I. But look 6 mos. down the road please. Do you think any of the people you lose now due to this behaviour will return? Do you feel your mods and NH's will ammend their attitudes for P2P, or will those things you permit, even encourage in those persons in power will not filter over to your new vision?Do you feel this makes sound business sense or even social sense? *shrugs* As i said your future rests with you not with the new players.

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Accepted that you can't expect moderators to be perfect, I believe the only equitable option would be to give both the moderators and the users specific (not general) guidelines as to what does or does not constitute an offence, what the punishment will be, how and where to appeal against the punishment, and a list of decisions shown regarding current and previous appeals.

 

From my personal experience, an example would be words that should be regarded as offensive or adult language. I am not saying that you should list every word in the dictionary, but a fairly detailed guide on banned words (possibly a modified global banned words file) that can be updated should you uphold a moderator's decision on a word not covered on the current banned list.

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You can control your moderators Roja. You know this and I know this. Question is do you wish to? There doesnt need to be rules set in stone but the kind of abuse that has been so common well, does that need to be because they are nice people, friends of yours, and volunteers? Judging from the number of PMs i have gotten advising me to be nice and maybe get powers the position is sought after. Why not use this to control some of their uglier impulses?

You state that this is not a paying enterprise i suggest it will never be unless you institute some small measure of controls over the people representing you. I honestly dont know about others but my choice in playing this game was: it looked like fun and it had the possibility of becoming a well run fun P2P. That latter possibility is nearly dead though...Do you really think this attitude in your Game Masters/Mods/NH wont filter into any P2P you hope to make?

Are you planning on growth or stagnation? The standards you set now are the standards that will be...so which way ya going?

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stormsinger:

do you realize that i have a fulltime job and a life outside of this game? Do you even know how much work goes into taking care of a community? On top of that, the community is not supposed to be my main job in the game, however it has turned into that as that is what i spend the most time on. I cannot take care of all problems that arise. ANd I am very well aware of the problems and things that we need, but you have to understand that we have no money, and no time, to take care of them.

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stormsinger:

do you realize that i have a fulltime job and a life outside of this game? Do you even know how much work goes into taking care of a community? On top of that, the community is not supposed to be my main job in the game, however it has turned into that as that is what i spend the most time on. I cannot take care of all problems that arise. ANd I am very well aware of the problems and things that we need, but you have to understand that we have no money, and no time, to take care of them.

Roja, don't waste your time explaining trivia to noobies. Leave the explainations to the likes of Lyanna and Cicero. And then allow someone like Placid or myself to wrap up the thread with an offtopic or even slightly insulting question or argument that detracts from the entire point of the conversation.

 

StormSinger (btw, is that name a reference to an Anne McCaffrey series?) I think you're expecting too much professionalism on a free, Internet chat forum. This isn't "Letters to the Editor", it's a forum full of pre- and mid-pubescent kids, immature adults and half-bored professionals who like arguing with the aforementioned audience while throwing out tid bits of technical knowledge once in a while, mostly whenever they have a chance to put down the dreaded MS.

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Guest Anchesenamon
Mod? It is a abreviation of moderator? The problem is that moderators are like the police and they are never liked.  :lol: I am sitting on the internet alot and when I have a problem with some moderator - when he will not accept my picture in a gallery or cut my post - I hate them. I know they do what they have to do but I still dislike them. And who is NH?

lol but they dont bother me...they do bother people equally polite who get on their bad side...again i bring the issue to...is this the buddy system or will it be a paying enterprise? If it will be a business then the Moderators NHs or any of you need to be polite to all not just your buds...you need to enforce such rules as are deemed necessary equally if you dont then you need to find enough people your moderators DO like to make it a paying enterprise. I can not imagine ANYONE in their right mind paying for a game where this is not done. I am not saying all newbies or new persons or middlebies or older players are nice or evil or polite or impolite i am saying treatment depends totally on IF a given moderator likes this individual enough to not enforce rules or dislikes them enough to enforce them mercilessly.

Well you are right. I don't know, if there are rude and not fair people as moderators they will never make their game look good so they shouldn't be moderators/admins. It is not that you have to be sweet and stuff - for example my admin on the network - she is usually so silent and so closed in herself in personal life but when she is at work she is nice, helpful and fair or in the game I have played earlier - A Tale of The Desert which is p2p you can call game master and ask him so dumb questions and he is always nice. I don't know how is here because I can't play but if you say moderators are not fair and rude report them to admin I think.

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