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Designated Guaranteed Invasion-Safe Spots

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(For the most part, this is just putting an official touch on how things already are.)

 

Logging on to find yourself in the middle of an invasion area is not a good thing. Going into some random house or such is 99% safe but even that is subject to a rare hidden invasion.

 

To ensure a safe location to AFK or log off, I'm proposing officially designated safe locations.

 

These would be confirmable as being safe by compass click location info indicating (invasion safe). Location info change would occur in 1.9.6 client.

 

The general rule: Inside Storages, and the buildings closest to outside storages, are designated safe.

 

 

Safe Locations would be only on maps with Storages with a few added exceptions:

 

- Isla Prima is a newbie zone, it and its insides (including new insides coming in 1.9.6) are already designated no-invasion

 

- All Inside Storages are already designated no-invasion (be they in buildings, or caves like Iscalrith)

 

- Guild Maps are already no-invasion so are safe if you know the location of any

 

 

Outside Storages would have the nearest building(s) to them deemed as always safe:

 

In most cases, these are where people AFK on these maps anyway.

 

C1:

Morcraven Marsh - Battle Hall entrance area (room where Ilie NPC is)

 

Naralik - The house directly beside the storage NPC

 

Valley of the Dwarves - Either of the two houses north of storage beside the flower shop

 

Whitestone - House in Tirnwood Vale located at 358,383 that Henrik NPC is looking at (though all Tirnwood houses should be safe for newbies' sakes)

(*I'm considering adding a generic building closer to WS storage for this purpose in 1.9.6 should this designated safe spot idea be deemed good.)


C2:

Emerald Valley Trade Route - The Tavern

 

Idaloran - either of the two nearest enterable houses just east of storage. (558,221 or 559, 243)

Idaloran (2) - as well, the undertaker's house inside the Ida cemetary fence as it is close to the underworld return spot

 

Irinveron - The Manu School just north of storage

 

Palon Vertas - The large house that the storage NPC is standing directly behind

 

Thelinor - the small building just a couple steps east of the storage NPC

 

Zirakinbar - (1.9.5) the crypt near the center of the map (with the fenced-in graveyard next to it)

(1.9.6) The wagon at storage, which will be enterable then

 

Arius - the Library building northeast of storage at 87,328

 

 


Additional notes for invasion mods:

- For all other small buildings in general like random houses, invasion moderators should check them to ensure no one is (logged in) inside them before using them as a hidden invasion location. (A "use them only if not already in use" policy.)

 

This won't help those who logged off in there, but no one should be logged in and afk in a house only to be killed on a hidden invasion whim.

 

- If you aren't sure of a designated safe spot prior to invading, go to it and use the compass, it'll tell you (after 1.9.6 release)

 

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Just some clarifications (as one of the Mods who runs invasions)

 

1) The above is a proposal (as yet) - it is not official policy.

2) IP is not designated safe from invasion.  It is only native animals are allowed to be invaded there.  I have seen all sorts there that break that rule - leprechauns, snakes, invis rats, ivan, Unicorn.  It is safe to say that any invasion on IP will be newbie friendly.

3) Indoor storages are not safe - again nothing nasty will be invaded at storage - but have been invis rats etc.  What about mel - have seen the separate part of that indoor storage hit heavily.

4) The places indicated by Burn as 'safe zones' - some of them i.e. the nk / pv / irin houses I normally would not invade but cannot guarantee.  MM BH - long tempted to invade there (dk et al - you have been warned) :P 

5) Guild maps - iirc there was a deliberate guild map invasion some time ago.  Entry regulated by mod.  (there have been several accidental ones)

6) As for checking every house before you invade....... sry not always got the time.  Commonly used locations I will always check - but to check every house / cave / island?

7) Whilst most invasions are broadcast - sometimes they are not (typically hidden ones) - or when the mod fcuks up and does the #bc in #gm instead... the 2 colours are remarkably similar!

 

Mods do not set out to deliberately target afk players.  In general I do check where I am invading - if I see someone will warn them and possibly move them.

 

Most important of all - mods can and do fcuk up and get numbers wrong and invade the wrong places.  I trust them so much that 99% of the time I logoff I am naked!

 

To ensure a safe location to AFK or log off, I'm proposing officially designated safe locations. deposit what you are wearing in storage first - or live with the risk!

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Well... thanks for the perfect example of the reason this is needed? I couldn't have given a better reason myself.

 

Radu got pissed years ago when Acelon did indoor storage invasions. They've been deemed safe ever since.

 

 

P.S. Invis rats are safe by default, not sure why you brought them up.

 

If you check houses and such before you invade them, you also completely eliminate accidental invading the wrong place. "Wait, the invaders didn't appear here, I fucked up... I can #tp to where I just invaded and kill off my mistake."

 

 

I do question the motives of those who can't deem a handful of places in the game as safe for people. Forcing your final sentence is by default saying mods have questionable motives.

 

If you're not setting out to attack AFK players, then having some designated safe zones is hardly something to complain about, right?

 

 

 

Let's answer the real question here: How exactly is it harming you to have a handful of officially-designated safe places to AFK that people have already been using for that purpose for years, without you actually trying to attack AFKers?



 

Edited by Burn

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Can't be bothered with most of that ....

 

But to clarify - I stated 

       Indoor storages are not safe - again nothing nasty will be invaded at storage - but have been invis rats etc. 

 

you stated

       All Inside Storages are already designated no-invasion (be they in buildings, or caves like Iscalrith)

 

Just pointing out they can and have been be invaded........

 

As for the rest tl;dr 

 

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Its fine with me, would suggest that the invasion safe zones you mention are marked on the Burn'd tab maps so we can see them easily at a glance "IS" or some code like that.  There are plenty of unused places to invade, so I have no issue if that is what people would like. 

 

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I support "a handful" of official safe places (and having them marked on your maps) but in my opinion this suggestion is too extensive and restrictive.  If that makes my motives Questionable™, so be it.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Burn said:

I do question the motives of those who can't deem a handful of places in the game as safe for people. Forcing your final sentence is by default saying mods have questionable motives.

 

Did you really have to insult all the moderators that replied here?

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7 minutes ago, Aislinn said:

I support "a handful" of official safe places (and having them marked on your maps) but in my opinion this suggestion is too extensive and restrictive.  If that makes my motives Questionable™, so be it.

 

 

 

 

One location per storage, be it the inside storage or a location near the outside storage. And Isla Prima. And the building in the Ida cemetary that was moved there for this specific purpose in the first place.

 

I'm not understanding what the "restrictive" part is.

 


The added comment about checking before doing a hidden invasion? (Like peeking in the tree house next to Redeemer to ensure Aisy's not AFK there before dropping a bricker in there?) I'll need the restrictive part explained, since hidden invasions are rare, and checking first aids in ensuring you're dropping critters in the right place.

Edited by Burn

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8 minutes ago, Burn said:

The added comment about checking before doing a hidden invasion? (Like peeking in the tree house next to Redeemer to ensure Aisy's not AFK there before dropping a bricker in there?) I'll need the restrictive part explained, since hidden invasions are rare, and checking first aids in ensuring you're dropping critters in the right place.

 

Well, fine. Don't be surprised you'll only get invasions like "drop 5k in an outdoor map and be done".

Having to check all locations before dropping the monsters makes a hidden invasion even more time

consuming than it is now.

 

And what about the caves invasion map? No way all those locations are going to be checked before

using the map. And there's no difference for me between a random house and a random cave...

 

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"For all other small buildings in general like random houses"

 

Those are my exact words. All the random small houses like in Melinis or Ida city or such that are only possibly invaded via hidden invasion. Nobody said anything about huge damn caves that are regularly invaded and as such no one should feel safe in.

 

I'm not going to respond to people rewording what I wrote. I didn't take the time to make the damn mod invasions map just to restrict it.

 

These are common sense suggestions based on how the overwhelming majority of things are already done, just "making it official" so players won't have to question it. What is so difficult to grasp? This will change almost nothing, just making the current norm official.

Edited by Burn

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You are talking about adding rules to the game, not locations to the maps.  That's great you added that building in Ida cemetery but that shouldn't mean it MUST be now designated "safe" or a mod will get in trouble.  This smacks to me of making "community rules" official.

 

Mods already work their tails off running these things and they are not all just Dump and Run.  I disagree that there aren't many hidden invasions.  Many run simultaneously to a big dump elsewhere.  There are contests with invaded mobs, sometimes only one or two in a building.  Sometimes there are invisible rats and they can be anywhere, even storages, and everyone is still safe.  If I remember correctly, there was a contest or two on a guild map that involved invaded mobs back in the day.  I've seen roleplaying-style invasions that involved some of the places you listed.  Isla Prima has had very very very easy small invasions and even had a dragon capped at 1 or something silly for entertainment purposes for the newbies. 

 

Everyone is aware that I afk (and others as well) in all manner of places.  Thank you for outing that hidey spot. ;)  And yes, I have been hit with an invasion mob put in a house before.  But that is our choice and our risk. It's not like we have no other option (such as logging out).  And I would bet my character that even if this was to take effect in its entirety as you suggested here, we still would have people who did not log in/out or afk in one of these safe spaces and we'd be no "better" off than before we started, except now we've managed to make EL even more restrictive and have now turned away the people who dedicate their time to making creative fun for players.

 

EL was a game designed with risk.  It is not a "safe place at all times" type of game.  I am not saying I don't think there shouldn't be any official safe spaces but there should be just a few. 

 

 

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This must be a gossipy banter in mod chat, since you're all coming here on the warpath with the exact same commentary.

 

Invisible rats, dragons capped at 1.... What part of the word "safe" is not being understood? Drop an entire damn bucket of invisible rats on the latest newbie on IP, I don't care.

 

We're talking safety here, and it keeps going off into rewording things that I did NOT say, and things like this that don't qualify as dangerous to an AFKer.

 

 

But let's simplify this, since that was actually just a side comment anyway, not the initial purpose of the post. I should have known the "oh no it's limiting a moderator" comment would raise hell.

 

 

So take that damn comment off.

 

Let's stick to solely having the safe locations. At or near storages.

 

And let's pretend the word "safe" is actually a common word that's easily understood.


Let's pretend I'm talking about the places that are already being used as AFK spots by people, and have been for years, like the Naralik storage house, and moderators use common sense and don't invade those. And by invade those, I mean in a dangerous manner.

 

This would LITERALLY not change a single damn thing on the part of moderators unless they're assholes invading rooms that are regularly AFKed in, but would show good will towards players by having them marked instead of having to guess.

(And the whole point of suggestions is change, so not sure what your point was there.)

 

 

Edited by Burn

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Not even going to think anymore about this, let alone comment.

Enough insults already.

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5 minutes ago, Aislinn said:

You used the words "no-invasion" in your first post.

 

 

So your true complaint is there will be a small number of places you can't toss numbers after #invasion at?

Yes, I wasn't thinking about "invisible rats". Nor was I thinking of Targets, or Nenos, or Badas, or Invdrags, or Shy Rats. Or Unicorns. Or anything "capped at 1".

 

My whole point was safety. All I got in return was complaints that you couldn't throw invaders in where people have for years now expected to be safe. So yes, I question the motives of these responses.

 

 

 

Edited by Burn

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No, I do not have a complaint that there will be a small number of places I can't toss numbers after #invasion.  I've said multiple times that I *do* support a small number of places for that.  I do not believe that 1)this is a small number, 2)mods need your instructions, and 3)we need more rules.  I may possibly support all those side buildings you list as being classified as "Usually safe but not 100% so".  Also I would support better wording even for the "official" safe places, if that comes to pass, that clearly does indicate stuff could happen there but it won't be aggressive without provocation (such as what you mentioned in your post immediately above).

 

But a slow spread like suburban sprawl of "safe spaces" is just not a good idea.  I could agree with storages easily.  Yes of course people AFK while still logged in and probably nobody does it more than I do.  But the game should not be designed around AFK-ness.

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Spot the trend here Burn?

You come up with a grand plan in your head - and then present it to everyone as a fait-accompli - and when people make suggestions that don't fit in with your grand plan - you get all offended. 

How long before you go off in a huff and delete your post, like the one for the bots in MM?

If you had simply posted :

 

Propose to add a small list of locations which will not be invaded with aggressive monsters, and have them marked accordingly on the tab maps:

  • NK house by storage
  • EVTR tavern
  • Zirak caravan by store (will be made enterable)

etc

 

and waited for comments - this would have been very different.

(and guess what - pretty much nothing would change as I am sure no mod would have invaded those places anyway)

 

As it is your first post is very dictatorial - gets confused between no invasion & safe - and gets things like IP wrong, then ventures off in to getting mods to check every location before invading.....

Then when people start correcting and posting - you start getting irate - accusing mods of being corrupt - trying to kill afkers etc....

 

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I also don't have the mod chat to play gang up games like is happening here, so I'm not responding to you Raz. "Oh, no, he just said invasions instead of dangerous invaders which he obviously was meaning so gang up and attack him over that instead of using a little sense and understand he's talking about safety for players".

 

 

1) What is "not a small number"? I gave one per storage, 2 in rare cases like VotD where the safe one could be confused. And Isla Prima. There aren't that many storages for this to be more than a small number.

 

I just wrote to forget the rest, so I won't repeat it.

 

2) The areas would be marked "designated safe zone" or similar, getting the actual intent across.

 

 

Assume from this point my wording was "invasions that are DANGEROUS" as that was the whole intent, you can drop safe critters wherever you want.

 

Assume literally everything about this is player safety, and not "invisible rats" or any other safe drop that comes to mind.

 

Assume this would literally not change much of anything from how things have been assumed by players to be for many years now (otherwise no one would bother taking the time to go into the house at Naralik to AFK instead of just sit at outdoor storage for example), it's just making the status quo official.

Edited by Burn

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1) Why not just storages, with the exception obviously being any outside storage has one safe house nearby?  I would also recommend the Desert Pines reading room but not the others.

 

2)I know there is a lot on your map already, but could the "Designated Safe Zone" (or whatever wording) have an asterisk and a very brief explanation somewhere?

 

Other than Acelon (love you LV if you ever read this!), mods have perfectly fine common sense when it comes to invasions. 

 

 

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That's literally what I just said. Your DP Reading Room suggestion is actually MORE than what I said.

 

"1) What is "not a small number"? I gave one per storage, 2 in rare cases like VotD where the safe one could be confused. And Isla Prima. There aren't that many storages for this to be more than a small number. "

 

That is literally just inside storages and one nearby safe house (or a rare 2 where the safe one could be confused like VotD or Ida) for outside storages.

 

I've chopped the suggestion down to the previous post just above yours, so anything else is already not being discussed.

 

 

 

But you're starting to grasp the whole point... the overwhelming majority of places being suggested are ones that common sense has dictated not be invaded in the first place, there's even more than I suggested (like your DP reading room addition). The only real additions are like Zirak's storage wagon which I'll be opening in the next client update so it can't be a norm yet. (and yes, the sole purpose of that wagon getting an insides is for players at that storage to have a safe place to AFK, I took the time to make it for no other purpose.) This is literally just adding a "designated safe zone" tag to those places that are already treated like such by players.

Edited by Burn

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To summarize my thoughts:

 

I always got the point, I just disagreed with the extra stuff that went with the original post (plus I thought you had too many but changed my mind on "all storages" (or one building if it's outside) and upon further thought of the suggestion, I thought DP reading room was a good addition.

 

As I do think the invasion mods have common sense, I do not think it should be restricted to "no-invasion" even in designated safe spaces; as we've discussed, there are "invasions" that are "safe".

 

I do not expect (and will not require it) invasion mods to have to run around to countless buildings or caves or whatever before doing their thing. People do need to take some bit of personal responsibility when AFK-ing.  Outside should always be a no-brainer to not AFK, and even inside, if we do go ahead and designate safe spaces, that should be the end of it. Take your chances (some odds are higher than others) anywhere else, and one can always log off.

 

The sticking point to me is once the maps are labeled as "safe" or whatever, people tend to assume that means nothing, no way, no how, no matter what. And that is what bothers me about "restricting the mods" so that nothing can be done, no contests, no easy things, nothing. I think that you now understand my point but we also need to make sure the players do when they look at your maps.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Burn said:

This must be a gossipy banter in mod chat, since you're all coming here on the warpath with the exact same commentary.

 

Not a mod.

Also stopped reading thread after this.

 

@ Original idea:

 

Unless there is going to be some sort of in game code that automagically insta-KOs invaded mobs that end up in 'safe' places. Then there does not need to be any 'official' safe-places further than what the current understanding is as Raz stated in his first post.

 

All the official safety system in the world will never completely cover a simple typo.

If you're suggesting mods be disciplined for a typo for the work they do for free...Well... I have no further business trying to convince you that this is an unnecessary idea.

 

If there is going to be some sort of in-game code that automagically insta-KOs invaded mobs that end up in 'safe' places (whatever they may be deemed to be). That's fine, and in the end sounds like a decision for our overlord, Radu, on where to place. If he wants to code it and ask for our input on where they should be, we obviously have lots of opinions about it.

Edited by Diealot

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"All the official safety system in the world will never completely cover a simple typo. "

 

That's the argument to never allow invasions, period. Mods make mistakes and put the wrong (or no) cap on critters that are supposed to be capped on a regular basis, we don't stop capped invasions over it.

 

 

This is officializing the status quo, not changing anything. Many years of these places being used as AFK spots with no memorable "mistake" issues is more than enough testing to assume that any mistake would be that, a rare mistake, not the norm. Nobody's suggested "disciplining" anyone over a mistake. They should, of course, fix their mistake if they make one, but your response is just extremist reaction for the sake of being extremist.

 

We don't stop suggestions solely because "something might go wrong" that would be the exception rather than the norm.

 

This literally "puts some words" on places without actually changing anything because it is already the norm. I don't get why that's so hard of a concept to grasp.

Edited by Burn

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3 hours ago, Burn said:

"This is officializing the status quo, not changing anything.

 

The very fact of officialising is changing the status quo.

 

We all know EL is not a democracy - what Radu says goes...... Until Radu says certain areas are safe - then no area is safe - and you putting nice pretty labels on certain areas in the maps means jack shit... In fact it tells players that they are safe when they are not.

 

YOU have taken it upon yourself to add safe areas.

YOU have taken it upon yourself to determine what these safe areas are to be. 

Have YOU asked any of the mods who run invasions for a list of where they would not normally put hostile mobs? 

Have YOU asked for player discussion as to what safe areas should be?

No?  Then why on earth are you surprised when people have a pop at you? 

 

(The good part is we seem now to be clear that we are discussing areas safe from being invaded by hostile mobs, and that checking every house / small cave before invading have been dropped)

 

SOME of the locations you mention I would agree with - some I would not - and have invaded several times (and still will).

 

Would you also like to officialise other things?  Like mods wont invade schools on schools day, they wont drop 50 ice dragons on you, they wont target specific players, they wont drop 100 dragons in after an hour of penguins etc?  Of course not, that would be plain silly, as Aislinn stated, mods use common sense when they invade. 

Mods do not try and take bricks... we are not on commission (that's a great idea though Radu) - 

 

Any one who feels unfairly treated by an invading mod should report to Ais / Radu.

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What part of "suggestions" are you not understanding?

This isn't a change... yet. It's a suggestion. NAME OF THE FORUM.

We don't block talk just because you don't like it.

 

Instead of talking about it, you're complaining that you can't do what you want.

Every suggestion is a possible change. Your post is "change is bad, so don't discuss suggestions".

 

I gave a starting point. Not from "places of my choosing", but places people already have been using for years. You can't go in Nk house by storage and not see AFKers. Or the houses north of VotD storage. Or the EVTR tavern. Not my choices, but what the players use. You actually know this. The only one I actually "picked" is Zirakinbar, and that's because it's the newest storage. And I have a place opening for it in the next update. But overall, it's the players who chose these places. Over a course of many years.

 

It's already been whittled down, and now for some reason you're saying it can't be discusssed at all because it takes away an incredibly tiny portion of the overall maps and that for some reason pisses you off to no end. I see nothing of value coming from you other than that you fear change, especially if it makes even the tiniest dent into what mods might be able to do.

Every single update has added more places for you to invade than this tiny list of places.

And as such, I can't care. If no one gets to discuss things, start with you.

Edited by Burn

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