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Ant

The Crossbow damage calculation error with PK bolts

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The first mention of the case I want to show was in the thread (from the first posts):


But there the conversation was not finished and no conclusion had been made.


I try shoot Phantom Warriors with Xbow and Short Bow with training bolts/arrows and PK bolts/arrows. What the damage I can deal to them when I get critical shot ? (Noncritical shot on them deals zero dd in any case of weapon/quiver. No exceptions to me.)


(The info below is taken from http://www.el-wiki.net/Ranging )

I'm 38 ranger lvl so I have to get +7 dd bonus (+1 per 5 lvls)

XBow - 14-19 dd

Short Bow - 3-8 dd

training arrow/bolt - 0 dd

PK arrow/bolt - 30 dd

I have the Wilhelm Hood perk - 15% bonus


Calculations (rounded down):


Short Bow with trainings: min (0+3+7)*1.15 = 11 ; max (0+8+7)*1.15 = 17

Short Bow with PK arrows: min (30+3+7)*1.15 = 46 ; max (30+8+7)*1.15 = 51

XBow with trainings: min (0+14+7)*1.15 = 24 ; max (0+19+7)*1.15 = 29

XBow with PK bolts: min (30+14+7)*1.15 = 58 ; max (30+19+7) = 64


The first three strings here are confirmed with the tests in RoT. The ranges of the damages are exactly I've calculated, but the XBow+PKbolts calculation is wrong. According it I have to oneshot them or left with 1-2hp (the full hp of PhW is 60), but it's not true: really I deal 52-58 dd only. What's wrong ? If we try to recalculate back the experimental results we'll get:


min 52/1.15 = 46 ; max 58/1.15 = 51 (rounded up)

Substract my level dd bonus (-7): min 39 ; max 44

Substract dd of XBow: 39-14 = 44-19 = 25

It means that the damage of the PK bolt is 25, not 30.


The conclusion: or the real PK bolts has 25 damage, not 30; either the calculation of damage with XBow+PKbolts has the inner error.


More play with crossbow showed these damage:

Trainings: 24 - 25 - 26 - 28 - 29

PK bolts: 52 - 54 - 56 - 57 - 58

May be due to low statistical data I've not got 27, 53, 55. But it's possibility for another explanation also


Also I found no difference in dd between regular XBow and the Marksman one. And we have no more choises to check PK bolts in action for now.


If we reread the first post of the topic I'd linked above, we'll find the similar dd calculation error with XBow+PKbolts. Keep in mind that the damage of Crossbow was 10-15 dd that time. And there is +5 dd of level bonus (ran 28). The experimental result range is got lower by 5 dd too.


P.S.: While tests new EL day had started and I'd got grapes from a PhW. Nice reward for the investigation :)

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Tried repeating your experiment on character with:

Level 41 range (+8 damage), 44 perception, 34 AP, WH perk ER perk:

 

Expecteds:
Short Bow with trainings: min (0+3+8)*1.15 = 12 ; max (0+8+8)*1.15 = 18 (12-18 expected)
Short Bow with PK arrows: min (30+3+8)*1.15 = 47 ; max (30+8+8)*1.15 = 53 (47-53 expected)
XBow with trainings: min (0+14+8)*1.15 = 25 ; max (0+19+8)*1.15 = 31 (25-31 expected)
XBow with PK bolts: min (30+14+8)*1.15 = 59 ; max (30+19+8)*1.15 = 65 (59-65 expected)

 

I decided to go with a bit more controlled setting, and PvPed an armorless opponent

 

Actuals

Shortbow w/ trainer: 17 17 22 22 21 18 18 23 17 23 22 17 22 19 17 17 22 21 22 19 (17-23, 20 shots)

Shortbow w/ PK: 54 56 55 56 57 56 54 52 57 52 56 56 56 52 52 56 55 52 57 53 (52-57, 20 shots)

Xbow w/ trainer: 33 34 33 30 31 30 33 32 33 33 31 36 30 33 33 33 36 36 33 33 (30-36, 20 shots)

Xbow w/ PK: 63 63 62 62 61 64 61 61 62 64 60 63 59 62 60 60 59 61 64 59 (59-64, 20 shots)

 

Turns out, with my stats, shooting at min distance I had 100% crit all above shots are critical

 

Second ranger:

Level 21 range (+4 damage), 28 perception, 0 AP, no ranger perks

 

Short Bow with trainings: min (0+3+4) = 7 ; max (0+8+4) = 12 (7-12 expected)
Short Bow with PK arrows: min (30+3+4) = 37 ; max (30+8+4) = 42 (37-42 expected)
XBow with trainings: min (0+14+4) = 18 ; max (0+19+4) = 23 (18-23 expected)
XBow with PK bolts: min (30+14+4) = 48 ; max (30+19+4) = 53 (48-53 expected)

 

Actuals

Shortbow w/ Trainer: 12 15 13 14 14 15 16 14 13 12 (12-16, 10 shots)

Shortbow w/ PK: 43 46 44 44 47 47 47 42 47 46 (42-47, 10 shots)

Xbow w/ Trainer: 23 26 25 23 25 26 23 26 26 24 (23-26, 10 shots)

Xbow w/ PK: 49 49 48 50 52 50 51 51 52 51 (48-52, 10 shots)

 

Above reported shots are crit only (took much longer with this character, hence fewer shot counts)

 

Both ranger tests performed during daylight hours on same map vs same opponent (who was naked).

 

Note:

Marksman xbow gives sharpshooter perk, which only gives perception bonus. it should not affect damage, only accuracy.

 

My results showed that everything gave 5 damage (ish) higher than expected, with the exception of xbow+pkb, which gave what was expected.

 

 

Based on those results, two things are likely:

1) Training Arrow/Bolt and PK Arrow are getting 5 extra damage than advertised

2) PK Bolts are missing 5 damage than advertised

 

Edit:

Perhaps a bit more than 2 actually:

3) PW have some range protection

4) PvP has some weirdness in it's calculation

5) Ranging makes one's head hurt

Note: Above data is with gelatin target, all damage increased by 5.

See Ant or my post below for more sensible conclusions

Edited by Diealot

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According to your data I conclude: players have extra 5 ranging dd on PvP. It compencates the loose of 5 dd for PK bolt. And it explains other numbers. it's the most simple explanation. (I'm sure you and your partner have no Gelatine Bones perk, what could explained the difference.)

 

I'm sure PhWs have no any ranging protection because only XBow+PKbolts didn't get the calculated range to me. I think you need just to shoot them too as well as Polar Bear to compare. Anyway, the protection (if exists) has affect on any combination of quiver and ranging weapon and it will be seen easy. Funny, it's not too important +5dd in PvP or -5dd in PvE. I suggest PvP bonus to keep the formula more simple. In any case it's seen -5dd tendency if PK bolts are used. And it's still agree to my conclusion.

 

P.S.: I'm sure AP and any accuracy modificators make no effect on dd. So astro variation also has nothing to the question.

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There's the difference. Target is gelatin. He never fights so I don't think much of it. Good catch.

 

Big oops, my mistake.

 

Still, the discrepency between PkB and the others is there. Good to know.

 

Searching update forum for 'bolt' produces no results pertaining to reduction of PK Bolt damage from 30 to 25.

Edited by Diealot

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OK, one inconsistement is less.

 

Anyway, your data proved the less dd of PK bolt. I suppose the error was at the same beginning when the archery skill was introduced, because that time XBow was not the strongest ranging weapon at all and who investigated new skill paid much less attention to it. It's possible due to the ranging items in the client itself have no exact description. And the encyclopedia is supported by third persons, iirc. Also I must mention the forum thread (the link is in my first post in this thread), where the difference was noticed. It was dated by Feb 2011.

 

I think the best we can do - ask el-wiki and encyclopedia maintainers correct the info about PK bolts. Also can we ask Radu, whether it's a bug or the feature ?

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Encyclopedia (like the CEL website) uses the "eye" icon info. And that's manintained by radu.

 

Is the "eye" info correct (in game)?

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There is no eye information. Eyeing training bolts and PK bolts gives:

Crossbow training bolts - Crossbow training bolt, not for PK! Weight: 1 EMU

Pking bolts - Crossbow bolts, for PKing! Weight: 1 EMU

 

Further there is no #arm information about range damage. Only special damage, (fire/cold/magic from special arrows) and missile accuracy are variable values reported on #arm based on what arrow you have equipped.

 

So, the 'eye' info in game is technically correct, but practically useless.

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The encyclopedia in general is useless at best and at times like when an appendix gets infected can be deadly.

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