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Entropy

All hydro route to be PK?

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quote(wizzy,#15) (takes too much space.. :P)

 

lol any alt(s) used to benefit a main character in first place..

 

or having harv'ing alt in hydro cave, that logs out there.. i'm pretty sure

they moved/played alot :P

or using alts to enter instances (i doubts many of 'em uses any items to reduce

time, just given free time for nothing :P)

 

so lets make full route pk, also remove hydro bars from npc, from acws too..

i'm pretty sure alot ppl would camp there, maybe not 24/7 but still good :P

also for better team work let's make hydro cave itself pk too.. what are guilds

stands for, just chat place and cool tag over head? :> (i'm pretty sure

fairytail which is in favour of teamwork would like it :D)

 

p.s.:

even with full route pk still can just sit in igloos (and some other safe

places) -_-'

 

awhile back, i even suggested radu to make hydro route fully non-pk, but

require some items/keys consumed to passage (ra:tax)

 

some offtopic:

when you start just play the game as is and not try to adopt it for your needs?

why some like cats other dogs? :>

you also blame rich learner, who doesn't really play at all, for taking your

gold in lottery.. ^_^ lol just take your risk

 

+1 for flowers on route but flower shops too pl0x

 

pic2003559_md.jpg

 

I have been a moderator for over 10 years in this game. In all that time, I have tried to be fair, impartial, reasonable in every way dealing with the rules as they have been defined, and players, some of which make it very very difficult to be impartial. Let me make one thing perfectly clear. This is not about me. In fact, it is not about you either. This in fact, doesn't belong on a public forum. and should imho be a topic for game moderators, before being dragged into the communal channels. When rule 5 was abruptly removed, there were a lot of consequences that were not considered, Some of which you highlight above. However, there is a precedent set by Radu for alts to be "actively played". As I see it, and others, the use of alts to camp hydro route, or other maps do not fit the definition as "actively played"

 

This has gone on for some time, and I am willing to bring reasonable arguments, and take reasonable measures to rectify what is believed by many, a serious flaw in game play that stems from the removal of rule #5. I am pressing the issue, because it has been ignored for far too long.

 

I have thrown a lot of hours in the past 10 years as a patient moderator, a newbie helper, a rule enforce, an event planer, a contest maker, and invasion host, for the entertainment of all in game. Do you really think I don't care about Eternal Lands as a whole, and only care if I can get easy hydro?

 

This is not about me.

This is not about you.

 

This is a topic of game rules and moderation of those rules.

 

 

 

Thank you for your services, Wizzy! Thank you on behalf of all of Nano guild. A lot of people have good ideas here, but even Stivy believes that some change is due.

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I have been a moderator for over 10 years in this game. In all that time, I have tried to be fair, impartial, reasonable in every way dealing with the rules as they have been defined, and players, some of which make it very very difficult to be impartial. Let me make one thing perfectly clear. This is not about me. In fact, it is not about you either. This in fact, doesn't belong on a public forum. and should imho be a topic for game moderators, before being dragged into the communal channels. When rule 5 was abruptly removed, there were a lot of consequences that were not considered, Some of which you highlight above. However, there is a precedent set by Radu for alts to be "actively played". As I see it, and others, the use of alts to camp hydro route, or other maps do not fit the definition as "actively played"

 

This has gone on for some time, and I am willing to bring reasonable arguments, and take reasonable measures to rectify what is believed by many, a serious flaw in game play that stems from the removal of rule #5. I am pressing the issue, because it has been ignored for far too long.

 

I have thrown a lot of hours in the past 10 years as a patient moderator, a newbie helper, a rule enforce, an event planer, a contest maker, and invasion host, for the entertainment of all in game. Do you really think I don't care about Eternal Lands as a whole, and only care if I can get easy hydro?

 

This is not about me.

This is not about you.

 

This is a topic of game rules and moderation of those rules.

 

+1, but to me either have rule 5 or don't, all these one-off exceptions are subjective and confusing. Now we need a definition of "actively played" or we're in jeopardy of breaking a semi-rule 5.

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so lets make full route pk, also remove hydro bars from npc, from acws too..

i'm pretty sure alot ppl would camp there, maybe not 24/7 but still good :P

also for better team work let's make hydro cave itself pk too.. what are guilds

stands for, just chat place and cool tag over head? :> (i'm pretty sure

fairytail which is in favour of teamwork would like it :D)

 

some offtopic:

when you start just play the game as is and not try to adopt it for your needs?

 

 

pic2003559_md.jpg

 

Clearly all you care about is your needs & personal gain. The game does not evolve around you. Unfortunately, Radu makes it seem that way at times.

 

Hydro is not the problem. It's the fact that you are breaking rules with your alts. You think someone like me cares about hydro? I don't even have a use for it. If anything it would help the lower-mid levels who fight phantom warriors for gold/s2e, or players trying to make a living.

 

OffTopic

 

It's a shame Radu isn't doing what the EL community wants. Infact i recently got about 7 players who quit, to start playing again. Telling them they are nice updates, stuff is happening to the game, new tokens etc.. yet they are already telling me, "How come Radu is siding with 1 player, when 30 other's want what is right for the game".

 

If it's rostos Radu wants, you really think you get him more rosto's then moderators who host invasion? I see atleast 5 players die every invasion

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Well I am one of them.

 

I think I did quit in 2011-2012 and recently got back to EL. Last 2 years I have been playing OL as some of you knows.

 

This issue with hydro is actually a consequence of removal of rule #5. The "actively played" definition is way too hard to set but since I am back, all I hear is stivy bombing hydro runners with macro of his alts and radu paying him (I'm not telling it is true, is just what I heard).

 

Also the need of hydro is just for pp buying purposes since the npc prices of items that require hydro is way too low compared to the cost of ingreds. So the second problem is to be able to max out with pp buying - which I think it is one of the features that did the most damage to EL.

 

What can be done?

 

I have read radu's blog about how an MMO economy should be and how to keep balance between income and outcome and from what I have read, he goddamn knows what he is doing. I am really upset that EL economy got to this level and people were forced to hoard especially some rares. The difference of income of top level and bottom level is WAY too much and the difference they can make with that income is also way too much. The gold income should be less than outcome for a while to keep things get to the balance and let new starters have a chance - of which maybe we can get rule #5 back after having alot of new players.

 

You guys are all into hydro and spying things but I think we need to focus on route-cause to have overall improvement of both gameplay and economy.

 

Ps: I got to some offtopic sorry for that

 

-Kaddy

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Wow - this got a bit... erm... yeah.

 

But since the topic has been raised :hehe:

First of all, while I am very much in favour of teamwork, I fail to see how making the harvesting cave pk too would be a good thing or would promote working together. I also said in my post "...(except the harvesting cave ofc...)..." so why would that make you think I would like it to be pk? Seriously...

 

Secondly, I also agree wholeheartedly with Wizzy's post. Let's be honest here - it is wrong. Whether or not there is a 'prescribed' rule about the hydro route, it is certainly in clear defiance of the very spirit of the rules. Yes, there are written rules, but there is also a - again very clearly recognised / acknowledged - 'group awareness' that this really has crossed the line. Ok, hydro is not a spawn, but it IS a resource. Not only that - it is the ONLY resource in the entire game that can only be accessed at one place. He is blocking the resource through his actions - a rule clearly stated, now continuously broken again. Whether or not it is said that "he isn't blocking it because you can do this or that or w/e to get around him" I would say that that is just nonsense. If you don't agree with me - try it. Unless you are one of the very, very few chars who can walk through without worry (which I would also like to make clear are also the players who do not need to do so!) it is not possible to view this as anything other than blocking a resource.

Seeing players return is a good thing! However - every single one of them that I have seen has commented on this and how ridiculous it is that it has been allowed to continue. They don't comment on the many great improvements &/or changes brought in over the time they have been away because they are so stunned / pissed off about this still going on! This is not what people returning to the game should be focusing on is it? I don't believe so as it causes them to overlook the great things here - of which there are many but all of which sadly continue to be overshadowed by this nonsense. This truly is a shame given how much work has been put into this place.

 

Despite the fact that I have said this many times, let me be clear - I do have alts. I also play them in what I believe the spirit of the reasoning behind removing rule #5 was - as individuals who happen to help each other out when required. They do different things and while they do interact they are NOT there simply as tools to be used by my 'main' character or for specific tasks to gain some sort of advantage. Yes, Fairy is me pretty much but 1 alt makes things Fairy could never even try to and the other is a kind of harvester who does things differently to Fairy so I can see how that turns out differently over time. Neither of them are used for anything like the subject of this topic but - most importantly I think - they are also continually levelled in their own fields. They are not stagnant in their development nor are they only logged in when something is needed for Fairy - they are logged in to do their own things too! They do not level as fast, nor are they as intensively played, as Fairy but then - that's because Fairy is my main. Bloody obvious really.

However, the point remains - they are not stagnant & they do continually level at (what I think) is a bloody reasonable pace for any character not run by an obsessively active player like me!

 

A quick point on the whole "Stivy brings Radu rosto's" thing. Do get a grip! If you are strong enough to beat him you do not brick & if you are not you go in non-drop armour to protect against the cold etc & do your best to not be noticed before you can make it. Which is pretty damn rare I admit. Which is why when I have been, I have gone in leathers etc!! If your a/d is too low to simply walk through & you are going in top gear that needs a rosto in inv for when (not if, but when) he jumps you then you're a mug. Honestly - it is foolish. And before anyone says "but I need the bronze armour for the rad protection" or something just as stupid let me stop you - take he's ffs!!! Watch your char as you harv & when your health gets low - bloody well heal yourself! Going in full bronze indeed... a ridiculous idea by foolish people...

 

It is just as Alphabet said - it is invasions that bring the bricks in & if you want proof go here: http://www.el-cel.com/info/awards.php

Now look at the 'Castle Builder' part for the last few years & when you don't see my name but you do see 'Valcaz' that is the time I was playing on that char for a while too. Only 2 of those were lost to Stivy - WHILE I WAS CLEANING LEFTOVERS FROM A PORTALS INVASION THAT WERE ON IMBROGLIO!!!
Not one has been lost on a hydro run - NONE!

Now try to tell me about how it is good for Radu's $$ income for Stivy to be there. Mainly so I can laugh in your face.

 

Despite what anyone may or may not say - this may be referred to as 'the Stivy/hydro thing' but is NOT about either - it is about the way this has been allowed to go on so damn long, it is about how a 'community' in this (supposedly 'community-based') game feels about one player being given carte blanche to behave this way - to the detriment of the community as a whole as well as this game which we do all actually care a very great deal about!!

 

Some who may not interact with the community as much may not even be aware of the true depth of feeling over this. I cannot stress how bad this is for the feelings & general moral / well-being of the community.

 

 

And I haven't even touched on the way this has destroyed the market for fe's / bars / s2e's etc nor how badly this has impacted the ability of new players to advance their chars through being a part of that market but, maybe, that would be more suited to a thread regarding player-retention...

 

 

I don't know if this post helps or hinders, explains or confuses the issue further but I kind of felt compelled to say these things as this seems to have changed from a 'make the route pk?' thread to a 'this is the real issue here' thread.

 

I mean it when I say this is not about a person or a resource but the situation - how it effects, and is perceived by, the community as a whole.

(the whole community being everyone I have ever spoken to about this with 100% of them all feeling the same - I know I haven't spoken to every single player ever...)

 

 

I'm sorry if this is a little long, but I said all of the above in the hope that it helps to help EL. You all know how I feel about this place so I couldn't not say it.

 

And if you read this far, thanks. I appreciate you spending the time to do so.

 

 

 

:medieval:

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alright, mods using commands to kill ppl with their minions and for sure
invasions gives more rostos at all.. but this is different story.
and don't tell me you ain't getting pleasure of see them dying/making them die :P
(and maybe i could enjoy too, and even leave hydro alone hehe)

but anyway why carry rosto on hydro route, when you can come there at low risk
of losing just a few s2es since you have geared harv alt placed in safe cave?

about bombs/protection:
there at least few ways to avoid 'em already (if you're smart enough to think..)

rc mines got nerfed by cooldown mostly because of whining that they ruin pk.
honestly, did it bring more pking after? but before even lower players had a
chance to kill 170's a/d to take their revenge or blew himself too ^_^
and you still wants protection for mines (high armor isn't enough? :P)
try to blow 460-495hp person first..
and if so then what is the purpose for mines besides eng quest? make some
peaceful fireworks ^_^

safe map changes? did you even try to bomb a moving person? it's nearly
impossible esp. when you've to predict where they step and placing enough mines
takes time too :P
oh and ofc mines are so cheap *sarcastic*

p.s.: ppl stop quoting whole posts, please this is just annoying ^.^

lol'd at he pays him lmfao
and wb kaddy <3 miss ya m8

p.s.: @abc: more than* :P
sure you don't care and do you think me cares about hydro? it's just a place
where you can get some kind of fun.
and ofc they can't just sell s2es or pay someone else to harv..
the biggest problem that ppl wanna do everything yourself :P that's why they
lose. they wanna harv their own resources, mix their own bars, then s2es, and
then harv own hydro and finally mix their own bars on recycling day :D
such utopic plan
but hey there a guy on route with some alts who keeps everyone in awe :( hehe

-------------
They won't understand until you leave.
The minute you walk away you'll become the "best they've ever had."
It's crazy how loss triggers love.

*smoking aside*

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Well they try to dig their own hydro and mix their own bars becouse when you buy ings to make for example steel greave you spend 2x15kgc on hydro bars and 30kgc on efe not to mention the rest. And npc sells at 42k and buys at 21.

Edited by Khamul

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Stivy, you killed my alt a few years ago making a hydro run. I spent months mining iron, fe ings, and coal. Watching you take it with very little effort, caused me to say forget it. I'll never do that again. A 130's (at the time) had no chance of killing you or uzb. I still couldn't. I am not a pk'r, never have been. You're a road block to be people who need hydro, not to the "pr0's" that have arrived (aka char buyers).

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Just remove hydro mine completely.

Relocate/remove any quests associated with II along with it.

 

There's a number of ways to reintroduce hydro into the game that could still give radu bricks (or not, that's up to him).

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Ok with that, EXCEPT maybe remove the harvest requirement and orc from quests for newbies?

 

That is very reasonable IMO.

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They won't understand until you leave.

The minute you walk away you'll become the "best they've ever had."

It's crazy how loss triggers love.

 

So you are leaving to show how much you will be missed? How long is experiment?

 

I do not harvest hydro anymore but I was told by the previous road block he got a share of rostos dropped which makes hydro blocker effectively a NPC played by player. Do rules apply to that case? This is part which is never talked about. What about multiple changes made to favor bombing in II? I come to realize doing hydro route is like playing in crooked casino - you are destined to lose and even if you don't the casino's muscle will rob you when you leave or prevent you from returning.

 

Make entire route PK makes no sense; what if you are fighting in invasion and need a break? I have killed a number of invaders in II and then when I needed a break went to a non-PK cave or food platform. Logging out is NOT an option with cooldown.

Edited by saxum

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Well just a bit of math.

1 s2e is 1260gc.

 

average drop of snake tokens is 1:100 makes for 15 snake token 1500 snakes (respawn time for a snake 53 seconds) but on naralik you can if you are lucky kill 1 snake in average of 20 seconds so hunting for the snakes to get the tokes takes up about 8.5 hours harving snakes. if you calculate 20gc per snake skin, you can get 30kgc in drops and if you are extreme lucky you get a book of fire swords that would make it 40kgc of drops (so lets take 40kgc) so you can buy almost 32 s2e with it, so you need to add almost 50kgc to the calculation to get to the 72 s2e i could make out of one run with full mule. which could get me on a recycle day if i am extremly lucky 9 hydro bars.

 

If i go kill a cockatrice i get an average gc drop of 100gc and 1 cockatrice feather that had over the last year a average gc value of 110gc. A cockatrice has an average spawn time of 45 seconds, so if you are taking the double spawn in wvf lets say you get in average 1 cockatrice in 45 second so in 8.5 hours you can kill say 680 cockatrices. that makes 142800gc so with the same time spend on cockatrice spawn as you take on the snake hunt you can get 9.5 hydro bars in Melenis. with the costs for s2e and he, lets say i get in the time 8 hydro bars out of it. (i did not count in the special drops you can get on that creature)

 

a hydro run costs if you want to make sure you do not get seen these days at a minimum 3 invisible spells, and about 6 true sight spells. 3 tele to range spells. about 2840gc you can get if you go not as mule maybe 42 s2e out of it in a maximum so 1 hydro ore is 1327gc here. if you do count the time of 15 minutes into it that you could kill cockatrice, you can add another 70gc to it so you can say its 1400gc per hydro ore. if you count in healing in hydro cave. add 60 gc for coal and fe on the hydro bar makeing you come at a price of 1460gc per hydro bar.

 

a hydro ring is only worth it if you get it as a drop or if you pay less then 17kgc for it.

 

So my conclusion is. a hydro run is right now only then profitable. if you either just run to get the s2e you have collecting dust in your storage turned into hydro ores. got the right amount of snake tokens, by not actively farming them if you are a high level player (for lower players the calculation might be different) or if you would not have a fear of loosing any stuff during a run. because even 1 death without losses would make the hydro run more costly then worth.

 

 

My conclusion is that, now that my alts have done Elle at hydro, and i am right now out of snake tokens and s2e's i will not go again till i have an suitable amount of either snake tokens a hydro cave ring, or get 15 snake tokens together by killing the snakes that run in front of me. I no longer care about what hydro route is. because this sport that was time taking but fun, before it got blocked is gone. Back when newhope started his blockade, the price for hydro bars where 13400 from players and the players made often a profit from it, had fun on the project even if it took hours and hours of harving and mixing. because the hydro run was an event, not because of the danger to get killed but on the way to get there.

 

My suggestion is. Create a new species of hydro creature, that roams Imbrollia island. that can attack everyone they want. that does not ignore to 190 defense, that sees through invisiblity, is not killable. and only has a cooldown of 2-3 seconds when fled. then put 1 of the creatures on different of the seperated pk parts of II.

 

If its 1 creature per section people can evade it when focused. and get killed when afking. It gives permament danger to the map it makes it dangerous for anyone to camp out somewhere afk on the pk areas. Also make a square you get spawned on mapchanges non pkable. so people can get on a map without getting killed while the mapchange loads.

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Hi - would be interresting to know how many rostos are lost with stivy's help at the hydroroute. I would wonder if there are more rhen 1 in an month:).

But however let him his funny days spending alone there. But what's about making a new hydrospot? Make something for explorers . Would be nice to have a spot that lasts only 1 day vanishes and hydro finds a new place anywhere else.

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personally i'd leave maps and rules alone and add the bomb defense perk as mentioned in game.

 

if this is just because players find it hard get to hydro i think you have already gone out your way to make other options, tokens, rings etc

 

then there is the consequence of making it easier for already high end players getting hydro, faster pp gains maxing out pp, which is the only goal apart from a couple of quests which are usually allowed.

Edited by caladina

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It is simply not economical; anyone who could survive the trip can get more value from killing monsters and collecting drops. Even harvesters that make the s2e from scratch and thus have 'free' swords can earn more by just selling the coal, fe and iron.

None of the new options have improved the economics, buying bars in Melinis is still more economical that any scheme of harvesting hydro ore yourself, except for muling on no drop day, then you just need infinite patience walking back from the UW.

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And time spent walking back from UW could also have been spent getting coal, FE, iron, or bones+gc...

At the moment there are three reasons to go to/through the fire maze:

1 - harvesting for harvest toturial

2 - killing the armed orc for fighting tutorial

3- getting hydrogen ores for alchemy tutorial.

 

Imho, if the only use you have for the ores is making bars, you're better off just buying those bars from NPC.

And I see the lack of interest of the strong players as a confirmation of this: if it were economical for them to

get harvesters to the ores, they would help removing stivy. They are not interested.

 

<sarcasm>So as the situation is now, there is no reason to change anything</sarcasm>.

 

And making the whole path PK has some disadvantages:

- removes a nice fluffy spot

- removes rest places for invasions

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I don't like the idea to make the route to Hydro pk. While it might solve some inequalities, it makes it even harder for non-top chars to try and do the harvest or Novac quest on this map. When the route was designed, it was hard, due to monsters and pk, but not undoable. You could ask for help from a fighter or just try and go at some unpopulated hour. After rule 5 was removed, it became all but undoable, except for a few people. This has caused much frustration, even from people who only need/want to go there once. Why not give these people a solution that allows them to do it, without a lot of changes that affect way more than just the regular harvesters. The snake tokens are a nice addition, but a bit steep for a char who wants to do it one time, since it adds up to about 27k gc at current prices, IF you can get them, which requires owning a bot.

 

I would like to refer to an earlier thread I made about hydro ring economics and suggest again to sell it in the shop, much easier solution and bound to bring in $$.

http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=60280&p=589309

Wont make it more attractive than buying bars from NPC, since the latter is still cheaper, so it won't break the economy.

 

With access to hydro, the economy might actually get a boost again, creating a market for s2e and ingredients

Edited by Maxine

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terrible idea!

better to reinstate rule 5.

making more areas pk, in a game where pk generally takes a back seat to more profitable/less risky game play to me makes no sense. considering that the AD/skill gap between higher end players whom most have no need for hydro and lower end players who must brave it for quests is in some cases massive, making it all pk is a bad move.

(edit:just my opinion, I dont really play anymore, just pop in now an again to see if it gets any better)

Edited by starscreamer

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