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mufossa

BOMB PROTECTION IN PK!

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Hello fellow EL'Rs, I have been speaking to a lot of you recently about Pk, and the main thing that always comes up is getting bombed.

 

A lot of you think it is UNFAIR that a character with HIGH A/D (or any char for that matter) can be Killed so quickly without any type of defense against it, I tend to agree with you, EVERY single form of Pk skill has a Defense againt it, for magic its a simple spell you have to re-apply every one minute and 30 seconds, bronze armor, blue armor and a cape,

for ranging, A Point Defense that you must carry to protect against damage from incoming arrows, blue armor which gives missle protection,

for Melee, shields, evasion pots, defense pots, coordination pots, ECT... you get the Point, there are a multitude of defense againt all form of PK EXCEPT Engineer which also happens to be the most powerfull............

 

im making this post not only for myself But on behalf of everyone I have spoke to regarding the matter, if you think something needs to be done to give us some form of protection against BOMBS I urge you to voice your opinion here.

 

I myself am a level 116 engineer(one of the top engineers in the game), so know that when I post this, it will directly effect me as much as anyone else. thank you for reading and please I welcome you to voice your opinion no matter what it may be...

 

~MufossA

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Not really an old topic, but one that definitely need some attention. Bombs are insanely over-powered, especially since there is very little defense against using them. Ofc armor absorbs some damage, and just quick reflexes can prevent dying to them at times. But with map lag and the 0 cool down on RC mines, its really not much you can do.

 

there is an abundance of PD in game, (I personally have 70k+), so that would be a good item to use as a defense, perhaps in conjunction with AP pots similar to how the Enhanced Unicorn med works maybe?

 

Putting a 1 sec cool down on the RC dets, as well as slashing the base damage by half. Doing that might give cause to adjust the formula for engineering levels a bit, maybe base damage plus (the engineering level of the person placing it /3) instead of /5. Just so it makes levels matter a tiny bit more.

 

 

Yes I have had fun using mines against people, as well as 1-2 times others against me :sneaky: , but I also know it makes people not even willing to fight just because it removes all the fun from it.

 

Also..bombs really shouldn't work on peace day..that's just confusing and retarded :P

 

 

Talon

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I think that killing 100 ad's with two hits is unfair too.

That means that should be max hit 50 or so?

To buy char or burn part of life to lvling u dont have to think a lot.

To bomb u have to "think" a little, where,how,whos, need practise that, risk rostogols to train.

I dont think that anything need to be changed.

 

btw, against bomb: 460 hp, ts pots and a lot more helps too, and yes, that should be info at #day that u can still die from bombs or make it disable.

 

WilliamDeWorde

Edited by Pati2

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Great thread. I completely agree that bombs are over-powered and there is no real defense to protect against them.

 

PK often revolves way too much around bombing and trying to avoid getting bombed because of how over-powered they are, and many people I have spoken to also agree that it is has made PK significantly less enjoyable. I do not think bombs should be made completely ineffective but they certainly shouldn’t be this devastating in PK.

 

I think utilizing the point defense possibly with action points as a form of protection against bombs is a great idea. Anything along these lines that involves a person choosing to bring/use some items/pots to protect against bombs would work really well imo.

 

And as Talon suggested, perhaps there can also be adjustments such as adding a cooldown similar to how summoning stones have a brief cooldown and you can’t just twitch-spam them, and maybe cutting the base dmg roughly in half (but increasing significance of eng lvl by using /3 instead of /5).

 

I’m glad this topic is being brought up and hope it will lead to some changes in bombing and protection against it.

Edited by Caduceus

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I think that killing 100 ad's with two hits is unfair too.

That means that should be max hit 50 or so?

To buy char or burn part of life to lvling u dont have to think a lot.

To bomb u have to "think" a little, where,how,whos, need practise that, risk rostogols to train.

 

I dont think that anything need to be changed.

 

btw, against bomb: 460 hp, ts pots and a lot more helps too, and yes, that should be info at #day that u can still die from bombs or make it disable.

 

WilliamDeWorde

 

TS does nothing against mines...yeah obviously would allow you to see your attacker, if you aren't already dead. And forcing anyone who wants to survive mines to cap matter and wear a dragon blade is ofc, a bad idea.

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make the pheonix glyph manufacturable and have the transformed player immune to bombs on the ground, last time i asked the same ground tile is used to determine player location,

that way if people want to pk harv runners then the runners have a chance to defend against it, maybe give the pheonix an added "fire" weapon

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make the pheonix glyph manufacturable and have the transformed player immune to bombs on the ground, last time i asked the same ground tile is used to determine player location,

that way if people want to pk harv runners then the runners have a chance to defend against it, maybe give the pheonix an added "fire" weapon

 

Thats actually a pretty good idea, as far as bombs along the hydro route. Wouldn't really affect pk in any way tho. Kinda dumb bombs would even hurt birds anyway. :D

Edited by Patriot

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Absolutely agree with this.

 

As a side note, though, any reduction in power of bombs/engineering may have the unintended consequence of making Neno significantly more expensive to kill.

 

Z

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Honestly, I don't see the point in reducing the effectiveness of engineering. Mines and bombs *do* kill pretty fast - irrespective of anyone's physique and agility. Reducing their effectiveness ingame only helps to widen the gap in PK even more - thus it effectively kills PK more than it's already (and there are constant complaints on that matter). It's good and fair if also lower level PKer can kill a top-geared full-pick point person - no need that anyone can walk the maps and think that s/he is virutally immune to harm.

Edited by Elke

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Honestly, I don't see the point in reducing the effectiveness of engineering. Mines and bombs *do* kill pretty fast - irrespective of anyone's physique and agility. Reducing their effectiveness ingame only helps to widen the gap in PK even more - thus it effectively kills PK more than it's already (and there are constant complaints on that matter). It's good and fair if also lower level PKer can kill a top-geared full-pick point person - no need that anyone can walk the maps and think that s/he is virutally immune to harm.

There is a huge difference between being immune to harm and being DOA. Bombs do nothing to level the playing field, they skew it incredibly towards the bomber waiting at the entrance. He sees you coming in before you have loaded the map and thus you are dead before you even see it.

With no cooldown on bombs, it is just a matter of having enough of them waiting to catch any player. With a killing method ingame that is totally irrespective of the skill of a player, because there is NO defense, it has made pk a skill-less activity. It is purely gc investment that determines if you can kill.

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Fully support the idea of doing something to stopping the unavoidable death on map entry for mines.

 

The fact that everyone who enters a map does so on the exact square means that all a player need to so drop an HE mine on that square, drop rc mines on all 8 squares around the he mine - want for the bang - trigger the rc mines - then collect the DB.

 

the player does not even see the map load - they just get dumped in the underworld.

 

The bomber risks virtually nothing, and need have little skill, just levelled engineering a bit.

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There is a huge difference between being immune to harm and being DOA. Bombs do nothing to level the playing field, they skew it incredibly towards the bomber waiting at the entrance. He sees you coming in before you have loaded the map and thus you are dead before you even see it.

With no cooldown on bombs, it is just a matter of having enough of them waiting to catch any player. With a killing method ingame that is totally irrespective of the skill of a player, because there is NO defense, it has made pk a skill-less activity. It is purely gc investment that determines if you can kill.

Right, I didn't think of this kill method. I have to agree that this scenario definitely is not in the category of levelling the playground.

 

EDIT: I guess slightly randomizing the entry points +-2 tiles or whatever is out of question? Or marking those areas as not-minable or no-engineering-zone?

Edited by Elke

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Or, if the entry point is mined, treat it as an occupied square (so you get dropped within a few squares of that point). The tricky bit would be to do that only for the entry points (or perhaps the whole 'landing zone') and only on teleporting (either via flag, ring or portals), as you do want your victims to able to walk on them or teleport on them with TTR.

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Or, if the entry point is mined, treat it as an occupied square (so you get dropped within a few squares of that point). The tricky bit would be to do that only for the entry points (or perhaps the whole 'landing zone') and only on teleporting (either via flag, ring or portals), as you do want your victims to able to walk on them or teleport on them with TTR.

That's an idea which I like - and likely should be solvable by an if-statement on the server side - and possibly some refactoring which includes to pass a "from" or "reason" parameter to the function which evaluates whether a tile is free or not Edited by Elke

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I would comprimise, I would remove rc bombs altogether, I would reduce damage from bombs, and would increase the effectiveness of wards, caltrops, and snares.

 

This way, engineering could still be important to pk, and remove the aspect of the .5 second undefendable kill.

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I would comprimise, I would remove rc bombs altogether, I would reduce damage from bombs, and would increase the effectiveness of wards, caltrops, and snares.

 

This way, engineering could still be important to pk, and remove the aspect of the .5 second undefendable kill.

Fully support the removal of RC mines - or certainly nerfing them significantly.

They were designed to be remotely detonated - now their main use is during a fight - players spam rc mine and detonator mid fight. Perhaps make it that you take 3x damage from your own rc mines - that should stop people it!

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I would comprimise, I would remove rc bombs altogether, I would reduce damage from bombs, and would increase the effectiveness of wards, caltrops, and snares.

 

This way, engineering could still be important to pk, and remove the aspect of the .5 second undefendable kill.

Fully support the removal of RC mines - or certainly nerfing them significantly.

They were designed to be remotely detonated - now their main use is during a fight - players spam rc mine and detonator mid fight. Perhaps make it that you take 3x damage from your own rc mines - that should stop people it!

 

 

 

Good ideas. Another option may be make it so you can't use the RC det while in combat. Ofc then you could diss/spam but that wouldnt make sense in a KF fight. Or just add 1 sec CD so can't spam them. But removing them completely would be a good idea as well. But keep in mind they get used to bomb map entrances too.

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Wizzy tried to save PK years ago, I posted some ideas there, I think there are not that bad, so perhaps read and consider :)

http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=56909&do=findComment&comment=563915

 

edited: I took out one suggestion (doesn't fit here)

 

In the following I lay out a few examples/ideas how bombing could be tweaked to make it more
interesting to use or less OP. (all numbers used are for illustrative use only and not final)

1. New item: Mine defusor - When carried in inv it will react like a PD and will reduce
damage from bomb by 0-100%, 1 use only. Price shouldnt be too expensive but still high
enough since mines arent that cheap either.

2. Create a min ENG level for mines being used. Why should a noob engineer should be able to
temper around with mines w/o having a chance to fail miserably? Example:
RC mine has a req. level of 44 to be made, why not applying that to bomb layers as well?
Lets say if a bomb layer has less than 44 ENG he should have a 50% chance to "crit" laying
down a mine. Result: he gets 50% (or 100%) damage from mine and opponent only 50% (or 0%)

3. Take the ENG level of opponent into account when calculating damage he gets. It's a bit
like casting a harm spell, where the mag level of opponent is taken onto account as well.
Why not do the same to the ENG level considering mine usage?

4. Add cooldown for use of detonators/mines

 

Just my 2 cents

Edited by Raistlin

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I just spent the last hour re-reading the thread from 2012, which lead me to re-read threads from 2009, to 2006, etc, etc.

 

I enjoyed EL for many years, I tried my best to help guide it in a positive direction

 

Eternal Lands (imho) has the potential to be the Online Indi version of "Magic the Gathering" without the printed trading cards. There are so many great things about this game, but, when it comes to PK there seems to be a lack of vision. I can not possibly fix it. And I am (personally) very disapointed I had such little influnence no matter how hard I tried to effect (affect) and change or alterations to game mechanics.

 

Wiz

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Eternal Lands (imho) has the potential to be the Online Indi version of "Magic the Gathering" without the printed trading cards.

 

 

But I WANT Eternal Lands with trading cards!

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The current engineering system was never really balanced for pk. It has found a place in the game but is open to many abuses. A few suggestions on the various aspects of engineering.

 

On mining entrances: The damage and range of mines is fine. However, there are 2 relatively easy fixes which I think would make this whole system much more "fair". #1 - Grant players 5 second immunity on map entrance to engineering damage (just like a/d aggro, and magic). #2 - Randomize entrance location to map within +/- 10 squares of the door. Thus, someone mining an entrance would need to move to the target and get ready to bomb within 5 seconds and do it before the player reacted. This would account for map loading times, and make bombing much more skill intensive.

 

On mining during active pk: #1 - Players should NOT be able to place mines/wards/caltrops while engaged in combat. It does not make sense that they would be capable of this while fighting anyway. #2 - RC mines/detonators should have some cooldown. In my opinion the detonator have a cooldown of 1 second. Thus a player can still place multiple mines around a spot and detonate them at one time; but they cannot sit in the same spot and ctl+1/ctl+2 spam to place/detonate to do 300+ damage in 0.5 sec.

 

On wards and caltrops: #1 - Add new wards that have varying effects such as crippling players (lowering a/d), silencing players (disabling magic), berserk players (put player on diss cd for 10 seconds), dispel (players lose accu/eva/ts effect). #2 - Add caltrops with greater area of effect and slightly lower damage.

 

On mine protection: #1 - Keep the armour defense as is, this is well balanced imo. #2 - If a point defense/mine diffuser style item is added, it should either a) NOT stack or B) weigh 30-50 emu per unit. This means that players must decide how many to take with them into a pk map, and it is not simply an auto-include item. The price should be a bit less than the average price of a mine; however, they should not be too cheap (~500-1000 each).

 

Rabbitman

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I think having something to counteract mines is a good idea, but I would like to see its effectiveness coupled to the engineering level of the user/victim.

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* there already good protection against mines in game (not only armor, hp..). more protection
would just make leveling engineering pointless which ain't cheap to level and either to use
(well if there gonna be more protecion added i'd agree with rabbitman that should be
non-stackable, heavy and not cheap. but again if it would be hard to kill no1 would use mines)

* players shouldn't be able to place mines while engaged in combat (that's too radical
solution imho, better make it works like spells: 2 secs cooldown in combat and 1 sec
non-engaged which makes it acceptable during combat and still fine for mining entrances)

* "We entered the range of mine" this message nerfes usage of wards,snares,.. imho. only
person that placed a mine should know there's one ^^

note: you can absorbs more then half base damage of rc mines just by armor..
note: not all entrances allows you to place 9 mines (only 5 of 'em would do full damage) at
arrival point
note: mines doesn't last forever (which is bad ofc..)
note: mines ain't cheap too

@raz "fully support the idea of doing something to stopping the unavoidable death on map entry
for mines." -- all is avoidable if you use some brain
@raistlin "take the eng level of opponent into account when calculating damage he gets." -- no
matter how much you knows about mines irl this won't help you once they're activated :P
@rabbitman "grant players 5 second immunity on map entrance to engineering damage" -- lol'd
hard


personally i think 8x (+1 w/luck) acws is wai2op'd and i would want to see some kind of
protection against it too :P/sarcasm

and about deadly entrances, honestly, who forbids you to do the same thing? ^^

resume: only real problem that i could see with mines that you could spam rc dets with
hotkeys, no additional protection is needed besides putting cooldown on 'em in the way
described above (and don't forgets a fact that mines ain't cheap too (4450 for a pair of rc
mine and detonator currently on bots)


-----
always hated a lil gnome(s)

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