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Domino

Beware when trading with LightPresent

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The issue with high traffic bots is that people need them, hence their owners can afford to pull off such tricks.

The same thing happens with real life businesses too. It's evil but smart.

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I don't think it's actually evil.

 

It's not necessarily nice as it's a bit against some common expectations, but things *are* already clearly communicated. The only real problem there is that the common price comparison sites do not have the update frequency to always represent the proper price of the bots. Though when you look at prices comparison sites in the internet, that doesn't necessarily account for the actual price you get in a particular shop either.

 

Just undo the trade and stop calling eachother names :)

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Susje can do what he wishes with his bots. It is imoral, but not illegal. Short of Radu making an NPC with set prices for CF, there is no market forces in EL to require that radical a change in price from 81gc to 75gc that quickly. At the rate CF is gobbled up in el, no body is hung with it.

 

This thread was a simple warning that prices are subject to change at any moment. Enough of us already know what kind of person Susje is, so no need to beat a dead horse.

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Well, it's a scam that way; If bot says after pm "I buy 2700 CF for 81,1 gc each, its' false information, because it's impossible to anybody sell more than 2208 emu (lvl 12 max mule without food reserve) stuff at once, and i feel he use loophole on game rules. I highly doubt bots are supposed to used that way.

Edited by Littlebig

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I don't think it's actually evil.

 

It's not necessarily nice as it's a bit against some common expectations, but things *are* already clearly communicated. The only real problem there is that the common price comparison sites do not have the update frequency to always represent the proper price of the bots. Though when you look at prices comparison sites in the internet, that doesn't necessarily account for the actual price you get in a particular shop either.

 

Just undo the trade and stop calling eachother names :)

True, evil was an unnecessary word.

But even if the price comparison sites updated immediately, it is very unlikely anyone is going to check if the prices on the same bot changed within 7 minutes (between three trades).

In Domino's defense, he probably didn't notice the bot was paying a different amount each trade.

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After a pm, I have to clarify that "a npc selling cf" was just an example. As far as I know, Radu has no plans to make such an npc. Please DO NOT pm him with questions about it. Thank you.

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I could be wrong but in my opinion no one was scammed, it was impossible for Susje to know if the first trade ( from that player) was also the last trade for that moment or if more were to come from that player / that day. There was no communication between players or deals made in advance. Its all up to the bot owner to value its clients or not, some do, some don’t.

Edited by Nardo Lala

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Just to clarify, i never complained i was scammed and never called anyone names. I did said the price change was subtle and worked just like scamming works but only to make a point about the transparency of the trade. I admit i was the sleepy head and Susje proceed in his interest without breaking any rule.

 

But i think it's pretty obviously that Susje expected more trades from me and decided to exploit that. He didn't changed the price only after the first trade but after every trade with me, including after the last one, when he dropped the price to 60gc. There were 3 price changes in 7 minutes(2 of them in one minute) so i think the intention is obvious.

 

It worked because i didn't expected something like that and i was too superficial to do any check regarding the price.

 

I think warning everyone about this is the right think to do. I had zero incidents with Susje until now, so this can happen to almost everyone. Take care :icon13:

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I could be wrong but in my opinion no one was scammed, it was impossible for Susje to know if the first trade ( from that player) was also the last trade for that moment or if more were to come from that player / that day. There was no communication between players or deals made in advance. Its all up to the bot owner to value its clients or not, some do, some don’t.

Although I agree with the "essence" of Your post the price was changed after the trade and Susje couldn't have any idea if Domino was coming back again or not.

On the other hand lowering the price yet again after the second run without even a word to Domino about it You can't say that it aint scamming.

If You set a buy price and then deliberately change the price as soon as someone starts selling the items You are clearly out to fuck the market and the customers.

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Lowering the price after every trade, within 7 minutes, knowing the seller would lose out on gc... so a quick PM to inform him of the price change was too much of a decent thing todo?

 

I wasn't surprised when i saw this post. (waits for the flaming) :w00t:

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I agree with both of you, it would be a decent thing to do, I personally would do also but we are not all the same. However no one is to 'blame' but the seller, even after the second trade Susje could not know if Domino would come back. Its up the bot owner to change prices to his/hers personal plans, planning or demand and can do so at anytime depending on stock and sales, even minutes after each trade if he/she would like to. As far as I know there is or are even bots who do this automatically.

 

At the actual trade the buying price is mentioned in the dialogue from the bot to the seller, the total amount is also in the trade window. If the seller does not look and just click click, only him/her is to blame, if he/she would have read the bot’s text and noticed a discrepancy in the amount, not agreeing with the trade he/she could click cancel anytime. As Domino wrote, it was his own sleepy heads fault, nothing more.

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Actually when I look at this one, the first price change is simply a shopkeeper updating price based on market conditions.

The subsequent price changes are somewhat predatory but legal in the game and by a supply and demand basis. Economic Mercantilism or something like that was mentioned in High School eons ago. In the real world supply and demand rule. Thats why people stock up on glowing 5 foot tall Olaf the snowman inflatable Christmas thing with Santa hat at Walmart for $29 and then post on Craigslist for $129 when Walmart runs out of stock.

 

http://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/airblown-inflatable-olaf-with-santa-hat-5ft/6000187693094

 

... not that kind of inflatable ...

Edited by Ikaris

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This goes the other way too. I've heard of stories where he screws his own guildies when they buy from his bot, he will raise the price between trips if it's in bulk.

What a stand up guy.

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This goes the other way too. I've heard of stories where he screws his own guildies when they buy from his bot, he will raise the price between trips if it's in bulk.

What a stand up guy.

As far as I know, the accusation that Susje screws his own guildies when we buy from his bot is false.

This dispute concerns three trades between Domino and LightPresent, let's keep it to that.

 

EvanMarie

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its not something i had thought of, bots lowering the price as the get an amount of the item concerned but it seems fair to me,

as the owner said, its up to the seller to check the price before final click.

one i will certainly look out for when doing multiple trips to a bot on a big run.

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I don't use macros in my chars or bots. I've been playing EL for years and never was banned for that or another reason. Please, don't make false accusations, and if you think it's true, provide real proofs in your post.

 

This forum is moderated, so don't confuse it with another unmoderated forum where insulting, posting fake screenshots and making false accusations against another players is usual.

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Honestly, you should have let this thread die, but since you brought it up, here goes.

 

 

I don't use macros in my chars or bots. I've been playing EL for years and never was banned for that or another reason. Please, don't make false accusations, and if you think it's true, provide real proofs in your post.

 

This forum is moderated, so don't confuse it with another unmoderated forum where insulting, posting fake screenshots and making false accusations against another players is usual.

 

Bots by their very nature are macros system, meaning they are automated. So unless you are saying you handle every transaction and you intentionally shafted Domino, I'd rethink that statement. Secondly, no one said anything about you or your alts using a macro program. If you have a guilty conscious for something, then confession is freedom. :D

Edited by Aquila
dumb typos

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Bots by their very nature are macros system, meaning they are automated. So unless you are saying you handle every transaction and you intentionally shafted Domino, I'd rethink that statement. Secondly, no one said anything about you or your alts using a macro program. If you have a guilty conscious for something, then confession is freedom. :D

 

My bots handle every transaction like every bot in EL, but I set myself the prices in the bots like every bot owner. If I change an item's price because the law of supply and demand I'm not shafting the customers: the bot tells the price in every trade so shafting a customer (at least in the bot server my bots have) who can read is impossible. Domino can read?

 

 

shouldn't be using macro for this ban-able?

 

Koddy insinuated I have a macro for changing the prices in my bots automatically. Lazy people think being a good bot owner is buying a bot, setting the items and prices once and leave it untended for weeks or months. Doing that, the bot won't be very sucessful.

 

If an owner checks prices in the market and changes them in his/her bot often, the competitors say that owner is cheating, using macros for changing the prices faster, shafting the customers or something like that.

 

No, I don't use macros, don't cheat and don't shaft the customers. Sorry if I work hard for keeping my bots in the top. Don't look for excuses if I sell and you don't, it's just hard work.

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shouldn't be using macro for this ban-able?

Koddy insinuated I have a macro for changing the prices in my bots automatically. Lazy people think being a good bot owner is buying a bot, setting the items and prices once and leave it untended for weeks or months. Doing that, the bot won't be very sucessful.

 

If an owner checks prices in the market and changes them in his/her bot often, the competitors say that owner is cheating, using macros for changing the prices faster, shafting the customers or something like that.

 

No, I don't use macros, don't cheat and don't shaft the customers. Sorry if I work hard for keeping my bots in the top. Don't look for excuses if I sell and you don't, it's just hard work.

 

All I can say to that is: In that case, limit changing prices to those times you're actually awake and alert; that might avoid you setting a ridiculously low price for certain items before waking up...

 

@Koddy: using a macro to change bot prices might be bannable if such a macro involved the game mechanics, or was an unapproved feature of the bot. As Susje's bots are hosted on EL-services, I doubt there are such features as needed here...

Mind, I can see one or two ways to adjust bot prices through macros/scripts which do not involve the EL server or client.

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I want to add one little tidbit. This whole problem started over a difference of 8100gcs. Whether done intentionally or unintentionally, is irrelevant. You’ve had your name dragged through the mud, put a bullseye on your chest for everyone one of your enemies and hurt your business, for what? 8100gcs. That’s chump change for someone with your money. You’ll make that up in half a day. Now you’ve spent months having to defend yourself and say how right you were. Right or wrong, you still look bad.

 

I spent my whole life working in customer service. I know how to keep customers happy. If it had been me, I would have said my mistake, given him the 8100gc and made it up somewhere else. This whole thread would have been a non issue at that point.

 

For some people, 8100gc is a lot of money and for others it’s a drop in the bucket.

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All I can say to that is: In that case, limit changing prices to those times you're actually awake and alert; that might avoid you setting a ridiculously low price for certain items before waking up...

 

@Koddy: using a macro to change bot prices might be bannable if such a macro involved the game mechanics, or was an unapproved feature of the bot. As Susje's bots are hosted on EL-services, I doubt there are such features as needed here...

Mind, I can see one or two ways to adjust bot prices through macros/scripts which do not involve the EL server or client.

 

 

 

I was awake and alert that day. I set a ridicuously low price for haidir passes and lowered the amount I was selling because I was in a price war with another 2 bot owners (they set a ridiculously low price too), and knowing the risks for doing it. They were banned, and I wanted to know who are his alts even if doing it means loosing some money. After that, they talked with me and donated back the passes to my bot, so we are friends now.

 

 

 

I want to add one little tidbit. This whole problem started over a difference of 8100gcs. Whether done intentionally or unintentionally, is irrelevant. You’ve had your name dragged through the mud, put a bullseye on your chest for everyone one of your enemies and hurt your business, for what? 8100gcs. That’s chump change for someone with your money. You’ll make that up in half a day. Now you’ve spent months having to defend yourself and say how right you were. Right or wrong, you still look bad.

 

I spent my whole life working in customer service. I know how to keep customers happy. If it had been me, I would have said my mistake, given him the 8100gc and made it up somewhere else. This whole thread would have been a non issue at that point.

 

For some people, 8100gc is a lot of money and for others it’s a drop in the bucket.

 

 

Well, it's your opinion. I can have an opinion about you or Domino, or any thing in EL too. That opinion can be true or wrong, but I have the right to my opinion.

 

Now the facts (no opinions):

 

- You can check the buying/selling prices in every moment in an EL-services bot, by example: /LightPresent inv. That prices are updated on the fly by the bots server so they are always exact.

 

- The bots in EL-services are very clear in each trade. They tell the price are buying in the trade window before you accept the trade, so if you make a bad business in a trade and you are able to read, it's not bot's fault, it's your fault because you didn't check well the price. The bot doesn't scam nor shaft the customers.

 

- Domino didn't PM me before posting this dispute. I've solved some complaints from customers because they PMed me in a friendly way. By example: "Oh, by mistake I sold some serpent stones to EL_Cid. I wanted to sell to LightPresent because is the best price in EL, but EL_Cid buys cheaper. Can you give me the extra gc?".

 

My opinion:

 

- A customer service keeps the customers happy if the customers make the complaints in that service. If the customer damages the company's reputation in the newspapers or social networks without making a complaint in the customer service, is clear for me that customer doesn't want the 8100 gc. He prefers damaging the reputation, so the customers buy in another company. I was logged on when all this happened and Domino didn't PM me telling the "problem" like an usual customer would do.

 

- Changing prices in the bot according the prices in the market for me is not a mistake. Is my duty as bot owner, so I don't apologize for doing my duty. In this case, the customer damaged my reputation before making a complaint or asking back the money and lost any reason he could to have for recovering the money.

 

By the way, if you are so interested in making the bots more friendly for the user, check this bot: http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=60095

Edited by Susje

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Susje,

You really don't know when to shut up do you?

 

That pricing over the haidir passes was in no way deliberate - and you should consider yourself very lucky your bots were not cleaned out completely. Was it illegal I doubt it, as Revi says - many ways to do that legally - just a very, very badly written automation.

 

You are always the first to take advantage of anyone else mis-pricing items on their bots - and guess what it's your alt that does the trade.....

 

p.s. guess who is now going to get banned from Susje's bots :)

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Susje,

You really don't know when to shut up do you?

 

That pricing over the haidir passes was in no way deliberate - and you should consider yourself very lucky your bots were not cleaned out completely. Was it illegal I doubt it, as Revi says - many ways to do that legally - just a very, very badly written automation.

 

You are always the first to take advantage of anyone else mis-pricing items on their bots - and guess what it's your alt that does the trade.....

 

p.s. guess who is now going to get banned from Susje's bots :)

 

Is that your opinion as a moderator or as a player?

Edited by Susje

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