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Aislinn

Possible Invance Rehab?

Possible Invance Rehab?  

94 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the bonus experience be removed from invances?

    • Yes, and allow players to wear whatever they want and participate as much as they want.
      37
    • Yes, but keep the required gear rules AND participation rules.
      9
    • No, leave invances as they are now.
      47
  2. 2. If the bonus experience is removed, should there be an additional bonus per hit?

    • Yes, 1.25 times current normal experience.
      6
    • Yes, 1.5 times current normal experience.
      5
    • Yes, 2 times current normal experience.
      22
    • No, leave the critter per hit experience as it is now.
      25
    • Does not apply as I voted to leave invances as they are now in question 1.
      35
  3. 3. Should gatekeeper get an automatic bonus? (method to be determined)

    • Yes, as long as only one person per invance does the job and can get the bonus. Otherwise it will be abused.
      33
    • No, gatekeeper just stands or sits there and doesn't do much.
      20
    • Yes, with no restrictions on how many people can be gatekeeper in any given invance.
      7
    • Does not apply as I voted to leave invances as they are now in question 1.
      33


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With the cap, wouldn't that hypothetically not work if everyone who joins the invance is over the cap?

Yep, so no more 120+ invance with a handfull of 155+ players, but instead a role for the lower levels that they can do and a reason for the higher levels to protect the lower ones from harm. It's called 'teamwork' :D

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So even if there is a full team ready to go, it wouldn't work if no one was online/wanted to go who was under the cap? :P

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@ ace- If the cap was something like 130-135, you really think there wouldn't even be one person under that each time?

 

@ maxi- I don't really completely like the idea of even split/sharing, but I like it a hell of a lot better than what goes on now with people being able to arbitrarily decide for whatever bogus reason that someone who helped isn't going to get a share. Too many preening peacocks out there looking out only for themselves and a handful of their special friends.

Edited by Nova

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Not going to vote but here are my opinions:

  • Keep the reward but make it half.
  • Add a bonus experience per kill. For example, if a monster gives me 100/90 a/d points per hit/dodge, the bonus reward would be 1000/900.

 

I strongly oppose this suggestion for the following reason:

The two things that steal most of my fun from invances currently are:

1. BJers in a strong sense:

i.e. evil ones: stealing the drops from monsters I kill, while I'm prevented from picking up the bags by either another monster engaging me still or because I killed it with arrows and haven't got to the bag, yet.

2. unintentional "BJing" / done by game mechanics: fighters attacking the same monster I do and getting the drop because of some really weird math used to determine who gets drop ("most damage"-rule definitely fails for my tests more often than not. First hit and last hit get some undeterminable bonus, but sometimes again not... not really deterministic in my eyes, but that might be just me... :omg: )

 

I'd call the 2nd phenomenon "kill stealing" (no, I'm not saying those ppl who get the kill are bad or want to do harm in any way...!),

and that phenomenon is exactly what would become worse with your suggestion hussam:

 

(I suppose) The same formula used to determine who gets drop would be used to determine who gets extra exp-bonus for kill, thus making it even more frustrating for people like archers or tanks or simply a/d-range-beginners who help to kill a lot of monsters but rarely get any drops.

 

I'll stop babbling now, I guess :lipssealed: As for my vote: it will most likely be No + n/a + n/a because I don't see any changes in those options I'd favor (i.e. find better than things are now).

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I disagree with Maxine about ranging (but somehow right now can't put her quote above my reasoning... must have pushed the wrong button).

Explaination: Whoever bothers to come to an invance (especially those invances below 120+) with a quiver full of PK ammo does so because he/she has at least some interest in archery. Otherwise it would simply be a waste of gc.

Thus, even though it's not really the best option for actually training archery, a ranging (summoning, magic...) exp bonus would indeed make up for some of the drawbacks an archer (summoner, mage...) is facing when helping out with his choice of skill to defend against a siege on the Fort of Iscalrith.

 

=> My suggestion:

Leave everything (participation rules, exp bonus in the end, etc.) as it is now in invances, but add at least a small exp bonus per hit/cast/summon in the skills of archery, magic and summoning.

 

Let me repeat: ranging in invances is NOT about xp, so anything that multiplies the ran xp (and especially if it nullifies the chance to defend yourself or make some gc when the MCs spawn) is a terrible idea.

Edited by Gwaew

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I disagree with Maxine about ranging (but somehow right now can't put her quote above my reasoning... must have pushed the wrong button).

Explaination: Whoever bothers to come to an invance (especially those invances below 120+) with a quiver full of PK ammo does so because he/she has at least some interest in archery.

 

Nah, she is right about it. You get very little range exp for a big cost(arrows + bricks lost - gc drop). It's times cheaper to train in arena on robin tell day. So it's not about the ranging exp you get, it's about the a/d def in the end and the fact that you actually use your ranging skill to take down top monsters(and well, that's why i train ranging in the first place).

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I also disagree with the idea of capping the mobs. With the current way they are capped (by a/d) it is very difficult for someone who is an all around player to kill or even fight multiple mobs that a pure fighter can kill. When I first started the 120-200 invance, all I could do was range. If you cap the mobs, I will most likely fall into the category of only being able to fight nasps/giants/dragons. I understand my build is my choice, but I see this as being a problem for more than just me.

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There have been 3 "very good" ideas presented so far in this thread in my opinion. The are:

 

 

Btw, what do you think of separate 120-200 to 120-140, 140-160, 160-180 and 180-200?


I think you should stop yelling and you divided it up into too many groups but yes, I think 120+ should be divided at the very least to 120-140 then 140+ .

 

 

 

 

  • No gate keeper required. Maybe add a NPC the group has to protect? Add a actual gate with xxxx HP that can be attacked by monsters etc?
  • Make it more rare with diffrent monsters spawn. Currently people just camp specific spots (hawks by glacmore flag, chims behind fort? yeti west of fort etc etc)

 

There have been other ok ideas, but they require more coding and there won't be community agreement on them. These three ideas I think have the best chance to be implemented.

 

RM

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What I see from you in this thread is double posting, bullying of other participants, and complaining, all in a rather aggressive tone.

Go to play for 3 years like 8 hours per day average, then I'll see you tone when somebody will try to reduce exp you getting.

 

I don't feel mood to invest much time and money in the game time anymore, because there are some rules, I accept it, playing hard to be better than lot of other players. Then rules changed and I feel I wasted few years of my life. How would you feel that?

 

Well, do whatever you want with the game, with the invances, whatever. Game already lost that fun which it had few years ago, so if you will make it too bad, I'll just stop playing it and will find something more interesting.

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With the cap, wouldn't that hypothetically not work if everyone who joins the invance is over the cap?

There are 2 solutions:

1. Split (which Aislinn dislike, because it was already discussed) - can prevent of no people coming. So if it's 120-140 invance - it's probably will be 120-140 only, so we don't actually need a caps.

 

2. Don't spawn monsters if no players to kill them. If they will be at start and after some period nobody will left (disconnect or so on) - so if no players for fight capped mobs and capped mobs the only left - why not make a Victory? Or remove caps?

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Yep, so no more 120+ invance with a handfull of 155+ players, but instead a role for the lower levels that they can do and a reason for the higher levels to protect the lower ones from harm. It's called 'teamwork' :D

That's probably why most of 160-170s players killing everybody on their way include MCWs, Yetis, Trices, etc?

Just go with FA and kill all include Giants (with FA as well).

 

Even if lower players will try to help them - they could get just few exp (before killing with FA is very fast), and no chance to get drop for lower players.

 

When I was about 120-130, my drop in such invance was like 100-1000 gc, when I became 130-140 - I started to get like 5k per invance. Now it's about 5-8k, because I'm killing nasps by my own, otherwise I have no chance to get even such money.

 

2 times I went with small team (like 5-9 man, which usually go when in Europe is deep night). They are were really nice for me. I've got really a lot of exp while fighting monsters, on first one I've got about 38kgc, on second one was my record 60kgc. This is because real teamwork.

 

So from my point of the view 120s people have no chance to get drop when 170s starting to rush, but they tanking as well for strong players if they would like to help.

 

There is another problem - low stuff getting killed in just 22-25 minutes usually and just MBs and Dragons left. I don't ranging invances, because it's waste of money. But when I ask somebody 170s who is tanking dragon or MB to remove plate for I join - some people are very kindly and let me tank, but another half just ignores. What is it? Greedy? What if I say about I don't want share, I just want to help? And I know about 5 at least such players who don't care. It makes people getting boring and thats why we have like 30 players at the gates when 3-8 monsters left.

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1. BJers in a strong sense:

i.e. evil ones: stealing the drops from monsters I kill, while I'm prevented from picking up the bags by either another monster engaging me still or because I killed it with arrows and haven't got to the bag, yet.

BJers are the entire game problem. I'd say, it's a game feature. Do you remember how many players left the game because of Dubro's and newhope's actions?

I'm personaly lost about 10 friends this way, so now they made such problem, got bored and left the game too.

 

2. unintentional "BJing" / done by game mechanics: fighters attacking the same monster I do and getting the drop because of some really weird math used to determine who gets drop ("most damage"-rule definitely fails for my tests more often than not. First hit and last hit get some undeterminable bonus, but sometimes again not... not really deterministic in my eyes, but that might be just me... :omg: )

I can tell you a secret - you have to make more numbers of success hits. Damage doesn't matter. So just attack monsters which you hit well first than others for just 0.5-1 second ;) It works. That's why many higher players will not help you this way - they already know you will the drop - so why bother, they just going to kill another monsters while you busy ;)

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If it remains with gaining a chunk of XP after finishing an invance: What about different XP and making it meaningful?

 

Gather the XP generated by each player for attack, defence, ranging, summoning and magic and calculate the percentage of each of these skills used on the overall skill gained.

Then grant a bonus which is, say, skill level * percentage * 100 for each of those five skills. If I trained ranging or magic - why would I get a huge a/d bonus?

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If it remains with gaining a chunk of XP after finishing an invance: What about different XP and making it meaningful?

 

Gather the XP generated by each player for attack, defence, ranging, summoning and magic and calculate the percentage of each of these skills used on the overall skill gained.

Then grant a bonus which is, say, skill level * percentage * 100 for each of those five skills. If I trained ranging or magic - why would I get a huge a/d bonus?

I have no experience with magic, but this certainly doesn't work for ranging. I will range 90% of the time, just killing a few yeti/MCs or whatever and still get more a/d xp than ranging. Point is, you don't TRAIN ranging in an invance, you kill monsters by whatever way possible and get a/d reward for that. Invances are not for training. In fact, people fighting are also not allowed to train a/d (e.g. use low gear to get more xp/monster). Edited by Maxine

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If it remains with gaining a chunk of XP after finishing an invance: What about different XP and making it meaningful?

 

Gather the XP generated by each player for attack, defence, ranging, summoning and magic and calculate the percentage of each of these skills used on the overall skill gained.

Then grant a bonus which is, say, skill level * percentage * 100 for each of those five skills. If I trained ranging or magic - why would I get a huge a/d bonus?

I have no experience with magic, but this certainly doesn't work for ranging. I will range 90% of the time, just killing a few yeti/MCs or whatever and still get more a/d xp than ranging. Point is, you don't TRAIN ranging in an invance, you kill monsters by whatever way possible and get a/d reward for that. Invances are not for training. In fact, people fighting are also not allowed to train a/d (e.g. use low gear to get more xp/monster).

 

No, you're not supposed to train in invances. But isn't that why you are supposed to use PK arrows or better?

 

So a possibility might be to give bonus range exp. for those that shoot at least 300 arrows/bolts (perhaps in exchange for a small part of the a/d bonus?). Same perhaps for magic users (50 spells on monsters or fighters?) and summoners.

 

In all three cases an extra condition could be a minimum level in the skill (like there's a minimum level for a/d), and an obligation to help in melée if you're not spell casting, summoning or ranging, with a good gear obligation. Invance is a fighting event, with fighting (a/d) bonuses, so it's normal that there are fighting-oriented requirements on equipment and on attributes/nexus.

 

To make this clear, I'd really like to see a note added to the invance rules with a minimum nexus requirement per level. And why not, a check on entrance and at the end for that nexus.

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In the following comment I basically just look at the 120+ range, but same principles should apply to lower levels too.

So a possibility might be to give bonus range exp. for those that shoot at least 300 arrows/bolts (perhaps in exchange for a small part of the a/d bonus?). Same perhaps for magic users (50 spells on monsters or fighters?) and summoners.

In principle a bonus for ranging would be nice, but I wouldn't base it on pka used, but rather #hits, %crit hits (related to AP) and average damage (related to stats). Part of this information is also displayed in the ranging stats in the client. It would be great to have average damage recorded there too. This would be a lot less susceptible to abuse for training ranging and actually reward rangers for the contribution they make to the fighting as a ranger. Trading in an equal amount of a/d xp would be fair, no reason to give rangers more oa xp bonus, but the ran bonus should not be so high that invances become the primary ranging training area.

Maybe someone else can suggest how to do something like that for magic (offensive spells and healing others as basis?) and summoning (not stone use, only actual summoning?).

In all three cases an extra condition could be a minimum level in the skill (like there's a minimum level for a/d), and an obligation to help in melée if you're not spell casting, summoning or ranging, with a good gear obligation. Invance is a fighting event, with fighting (a/d) bonuses, so it's normal that there are fighting-oriented requirements on equipment and on attributes/nexus.

I think a minimum level is reasonable, also attributes should weigh in, maybe by looking at spell effects as a weight factor and strength of the summoned creatures.

To make this clear, I'd really like to see a note added to the invance rules with a minimum nexus requirement per level. And why not, a check on entrance and at the end for that nexus.

Any gear and stats requirements really should be hard coded, like a/d level requirements on entry, it is impossible for moderators to check this and players in the invances are usually to busy fighting/staying alive to report on possible rule breaking. Edited by Maxine

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To make this clear, I'd really like to see a note added to the invance rules with a minimum nexus requirement per level. And why not, a check on entrance and at the end for that nexus.

Any gear and stats requirements really should be hard coded, like a/d level requirements on entry, it is impossible for moderators to check this and players in the invances are usually to busy fighting/staying alive to report on possible rule breaking.

 

Anything that can be clearly defined and checked by the server should be, especially things that moderators cannot check easily. That would be skill levels, AP used, nexus and if necessary, attributes.

One problem with this is that there are different roles, and every one is supposed to help in melée when (s)he cannot help in the other role. But a pure melée fighter does not need levels in ranging or magic (for attacking monsters, that is, restoration is another matter), nor AP, so checking on that on entry is unrealistic. It should be checked before giving any extra bonus for ranging, magic or summons.

 

I have more trouble defining hard gear requirements, especially for the lower levels, as there are a lot of possible combinations, which is why I proposed a minimum human nexus requirement: that implies a level of gear we want to see used in an invance, without prescribing precisely what is acceptable.

 

The "mages" are probably going to complain that they don't need human nexus, so why should they be obliged to have it to do an invance. My reply: because invance is fighting-based, has a fighting-centered reward, so has fighting-related requirements. Also, a mage that is able to enter say an 80-100 invance must be able to fight at that level (as he or she got the a/d levels somehow...)

Edited by revi

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...It should be checked before giving any extra bonus for ranging, magic or summons.

Indeed, but higher AP -> higher crits, higher lvl -> higher damage, higher gear -> higher damage, so basing the ranging xp reward on damage done (before PD if possible) is best imo.

 

I think ran xp bonus proportional or equal to damage done would be a significant amount, without removing a lot of the a/d bonus.

For mages damage to mobs+healing of others is probably a good measure, not sure how to measure contribution of summoners (total HP of mobs summoned?).

 

Might be too complicated to make ran/sum/mag xp reward opt-in, but with this basis any player who contributes by those skills gets rewarded for that. The total bonus oa xp should stay the same but just gets redistributed a little based on the actual fighting skills used.

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Btw, why double invance exp was removed if we do it on sun-tzu?

Day of Sun-Tzu assumes you getting 2x exp of everything, but suddenly "except invance bonus". Why so?

Because it was abused.

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Because it was abused.

Abused by who?

 

Does it matter? But some asked for invance and then used a Sun Tzu stone (invances wouldn't be started during a Sun Tzu)

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Because it was abused.

Abused by who?

 

Does it matter? But some asked for invance and then used a Sun Tzu stone (invances wouldn't be started during a Sun Tzu)

 

Yes, and radu said no invances for whole week. But what's the problem? People would get 2x times more exp and 2x times more fun because of it.

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Because it was abused.

Abused by who?

 

That isn't your business, just like it's not your business who voted in what manner. Nor is it for you to decide what is desirable and what isn't, and then to bully and harrass those who see things differently from you. Meanwhile, sun tzu exp is totally off-topic for this thread. I think we all know your position. Please let others state theirs without you jumping all over them and burying it.

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hi

if I understand it right the main problem for the invance are to many easy gained xp. So why not make it a bit harder:

Limitate the players to perhaps 15. Do not announce the invance every day at the same time. And: if the invance is lost players will loose the xp they would have gained when the invance was won

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