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Aislinn

Possible Invance Rehab?

Possible Invance Rehab?  

94 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the bonus experience be removed from invances?

    • Yes, and allow players to wear whatever they want and participate as much as they want.
      37
    • Yes, but keep the required gear rules AND participation rules.
      9
    • No, leave invances as they are now.
      47
  2. 2. If the bonus experience is removed, should there be an additional bonus per hit?

    • Yes, 1.25 times current normal experience.
      6
    • Yes, 1.5 times current normal experience.
      5
    • Yes, 2 times current normal experience.
      22
    • No, leave the critter per hit experience as it is now.
      25
    • Does not apply as I voted to leave invances as they are now in question 1.
      35
  3. 3. Should gatekeeper get an automatic bonus? (method to be determined)

    • Yes, as long as only one person per invance does the job and can get the bonus. Otherwise it will be abused.
      33
    • No, gatekeeper just stands or sits there and doesn't do much.
      20
    • Yes, with no restrictions on how many people can be gatekeeper in any given invance.
      7
    • Does not apply as I voted to leave invances as they are now in question 1.
      33


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Removing reward in exchange for softening the armor/weapon requirement sounds like a good compromise.

But will people still go? Maybe the question should be:

What would make you still go to invances if your team mates were not wearing enough armor (less chance of completing the invance) and if the experience was less or removed?

 

Another option is to treat it like instances where you cannot come back without a rostogol but then allow low level armor/weapons regardless of level. There will actually be more rostogol donations this way. Someone in low level armor is more likely to die.

 

For reasons Raistlin mentioned, I don't believe softening the gear requirement should happen without decreasing or eliminating the reward. Otherwise, this would become even more free experience.

Edited by hussam

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Make new special invance "save Melinis" parallel to "save Iscarlith". Melinis with your innovations, Iscarlith stay as is. Lets see what ppl choose ;)

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Make new special invance "save Melinis" parallel to "save Iscarlith". Melinis with your innovations, Iscarlith stay as is. Lets see what ppl choose ;)

I'd love to try this but don't know if radu would be willing.

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I believe such poll will be heavily biased, biased by the (few) hardcore players which are very chatty and have a strong opinion. Yet that may not be representative of the overall playerbase which is less likely to raise their opinion and who might simply silently leave. The gear requirements are easy to fulfill by established players. But they definitely are severly off-putting to new players. With XP bonus gone, it also doesn't matter whether anyone does anything. People get XP by fighting anyway, so without any bonus, it's fair and square.

 

Thus Aislin raises IMHO some very good questions, especially as fighting XP is something gotten by easily, more easily than anything else, even without invances. Probably the most interesting suggestion is kapbepucm's which allows to happily test which alternative is more popular. The idea to start the invances scripted at a random time sounds appealing to me, too.

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People get experience with fighting, but removing the reward is removing the incentive.

 

I brought this up in channel 6 last night... would anyone do the skill tutorial quests if there were no reward at the end? You're still getting experience from it. The answer is, probably not. Without this extra incentive, it's barely different than an instance or invasion.

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Just a quick note about ranging xp. Ranging in invances is about killing, not about xp. If I want ranging xp I use an arena. Multiplying the ran xp gained by some multiplier will make more people range mobs from too far away, dislodging it, which is the main cause of death among inexperienced rangers.

Having a/d bonus based on contribution (vague term, hard to quantify) will have to take more than just a/d into account and will be hard to tweak so it will be fair, but I do think the way the bonus is distributed should change.

 

I personally don't think someone (re-)entering invance with crap gear should be allowed to get the xp bonus, a mage needs mage robes and CoM, even a summoner will need special gear, but right now a low level mixer build can do very little, which is why I support the idea of capped mobs. Lets give lower level and non-fighters a way to contribute rather than take away their bonus.

 

I don't think invances should stay as they are, but removing all xp and/or gear requirements is not the solution i.m.o.

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I voted 1,4 and 2.

 

Now I throw in my 2 cents: Leave invance as it is with all its rules

Dude, I respect you, but your probably voted wrong (vote "1") if you would like to keep main stuff in invance as-is ;)

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IMO invances should be scaled down a bit in time and corresponding experience reduced and this would allow invances to be run more often so those who are playing other times would be to participate and not feel game is out of control with alts passing them with almost daily experience they are unable to get. Reducing length of invance so that 3 invances could be run a day would rebalance this distribution of experience if players were interested; if less were in it then there is a higher possibility of drops and more experience earned in invance. Some may choose to wait going to later invance if there was higher possibility for one to be held. None of the polls address this so voted keep it the same; better no chance than a bad one.

 

I agree with points about spawns being to static and think gatekeeper should be rewarded more, a tithe rather than an experience boost.

 

Personally I think determining invances by A/D range is poor division for there are professional killers in game who do nothing much other than kill and other variety of players and invances appear to be part of the A/D inflation which is unbalancing game and driving players away being replaced by more killer alts.

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I voted 1,4 and 2.

 

Now I throw in my 2 cents: Leave invance as it is with all its rules

Dude, I respect you, but your probably voted wrong (vote "1") if you would like to keep main stuff in invance as-is ;)

 

Who are you to decide someone else's vote is wrong?

 

What I see from you in this thread is double posting, bullying of other participants, and complaining, all in a rather aggressive tone. Do you really think that's the best way to get anyone to spend a lot of time thinking about and implementing improvements?

 

(Note: this is only my personal opinion as a player and forum particiânt)

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Well, I do think they need revamping, as currently everything is only a/d centered. I really feel that this needs to change to make EL a real role-playing game.

 

Gear requirements are just a no-go I think. People should wear gear because it helps them stay alive, or otherwise help them, not because of a dress code. If they can kill mobs naked, what would be the problem? Even more so for a mage, as there is NO item that enhances their powers (ok, a few items that give you some more mana, but that's hardly significant) and if they get attacked it's either diss or die, no matter what armor they are wearing.

 

I agree that xp reward system needs to be changed, as it certainly encourages doing little. Totally pro a per hit (not per kill) enhanced xp, 2x may be enough for fighters, probably 3x for magic and ranging (harm is hardly the spell you would train on, due to its price, same with pk arrows). That would make people try to fight as much as possible, as well as reward everybody with xp according to their skill (seen quite a few times people leaving the invance before the ent just to NOT get the a/d xp).

Edited by teotwawki

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I voted to keep the invance as it is, not because i am against a change per se, but because the alternatives are, in my opinion, even more demotivational than the current invance framework. Just split the 120+ range into 120-140 - 140-160 - 160-179, 180+ (if planned, or whatever) and make it harder and harder to win the invance (yet with better and better gc drops for each lvl). Something like the instances.

Edited by Mythos

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(...)

 

Gear requirements are just a no-go I think. People should wear gear because it helps them stay alive, or otherwise help them, not because of a dress code. If they can kill mobs naked, what would be the problem? Even more so for a mage, as there is NO item that enhances their powers (ok, a few items that give you some more mana, but that's hardly significant) and if they get attacked it's either diss or die, no matter what armor they are wearing.

(...)

That's a complaint I've heard before...

 

Let's see what's available in equipment that might be useful to a mage (getting a bit off-topic perhaps!):

- Staff of the Mage: 5% chance to do mana burn, needs 5 human nexus

- Mage robe and skirts: each gives 60 mana, so that's 120 extra, no nexus requirements

- Crown of Mana : 150 extra mana, needs 5 human nexus

- Medallion of mana : +20 mana, +2 armor, +2 accuracy, no nexus requirements

And there are some other items (Dragon blade, Rholam, EC of life and mana, CotM, steel helm of mana, ...)

 

If you have 5 human nexus that can get you 290 extra mana (CoM; MoM, mage robe and skirts).

That is 11 extra harm spells. And requiring 5 human nexus to participate in 80+ invances is not unreasonable, IMO, compared to what a fighter needs, as the spell casting does not require any nexus...) (even with NO human nexus you can get 140 extra mana, or 5 harm spells worth)

 

You also can go to restock with no penalty, so use that time to refill mana with potions of extra mana (~200 mana/min, SRs give about 60-70 mana/min).

Yes, that gear and those potions are expensive. So are a fighter's gear and consumables.

 

The equipment requirements can be argued both ways, but you cannot say there's no gear for a mage. So I see no reason they should be excused from any gear requirements under the current rules.

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The person obviously has no idea what they are talking about when it comes to Mages revi the hp given to them already has a big edge. Sure they lose more hp because the lack of vitality although the extra hp makes up for the lack in most cases if not all. considering if they do sit back and just heal or kill lower mobs in the 120+ invance the end is the same... Mages more hp > Rangers more damage > Fighters less hp than mage but can stand their ground. they forgot to mention EMPs/GHP + MD/SoP/MoL can help a fully geared mage with staying alive considerably.

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I voted to keep invances as they are.

First, let's not confuse the 120+ instance with the other ones: the 120+ should be split IMHO, too many players, too many high mobs and too demotivating for low range players. That is also related to why I'm not overcapping: 120+ seems a regular invance, but much more danger than fun to me esp. with my current build.

For other invances, the reward currently working is purely a/d. If you take it out, less people will show up, and the 100-120 range is always in trouble when looking for people. Hence I voted for no changes.

If you replace the bonus with a hit/dodge based bonus, things _may_ work but only for fighter/tanks. What about rangers and mages and summoners? They would probably not show up (then good luck with some of the high mobs in the 120+).

 

PROPOSAL

 

If a hit/dodge bonus is considered, I can propose a similar method which is more balanced among the player types. I would assign a final bonus for all fight-related abilities (att/def/range/summon/magic) in proportion to how many hits/dodges/spell/summons you made. Or, different implementation, to the amount of xp you made in that ability during the invance (takes some care to check at least that you are within the invance map most of the time, so that no powerleveling at restock time is possible).

 

Example, simplified with a/d/summoning

 

Let's say that att/def bonus bonus is 2k per level, and summon bonus is 100 per level. So if I am 100/100/50, my maximum bonuses are 200k/200k/5k.

 

Case 1: I go as a fighter, make 1000 hits, 200 dodges and 1 summon. <Normalize the vector to 1, multiply for the max bonus> I get almost all the att bonus, ~40K def bonus, basically no summon bonus.

Case 2: I go as a tank, make 1000 dodge, 200 hits and 1 summon. Same as before, I get most of the def and a bit of att final bonus.

 

Case 3: I go as a summoner, make 100 hit, 100 dodge and 100 summon. I get 1/3 of each bonus, so 66k a/d and 1.66k summon.

 

Case 4: I go as a cheater, getting less than X hits/dodges and summons. I get no bonus and a warning. Radu has to decide what is the value of X of course.

 

Notes:

  • if I am a weak fighter but powerful summoner (summon 80) means I get more summon xp (but my creatures will be much more helpful for the team).
  • The reasoning applies to magic/summon/ranging etc.
  • By deciding what is the maximum bonus per level per each ability (the 2k per level or 100 per level in the example) we can calibrate things so that invance is a nice bonus but cannot be used too much for power leveling.
  • The counters for the invance should count actions which are helpful to the team (e.g. count tank rabbits but not plain rabbits... but sometimes white rabbits ARE useful)

Despite I think the method may work, it remains to see if this is what people wants: maybe invances are still a way to level a/d for characters which are more devoted to ranging or mixing, for them it's better to leave them as they are.

Cheers
xam

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I haven't played in a very long time. Here's why: It takes up too much of my RL time to play this game in any way that is fun. Putting aside how much time it takes to gain one level once you are a higher level player, I will instead focus on the fact that it takes hours upon hours of your chosen way of making gc to recover from dying. A lot of the time you die because of plain old bad luck. It's not appealing.

 

The xp chunk at the end is what keeps most people attending the invance despite the risk of losing large amounts of gc to dying. Almost every single problem that exists in invances relates to that simple fact. The penalty for death is too huge and the reward far too small, this leads to people wanting to do the instance in cheap gear.

 

High level fighters who should be trying to take down the higher level monsters instead run around and take out low level monsters that should be left for low level players to have a chance at because it pays off better.

 

The loot distribution is flawed and biased and trying to keep track of everyone who helped take down group monsters is too difficult for most people to want to bother to do. AND if you do bother to keep track of everyone who helped on each different monster, the calculation and distribution of the loot afterwards is a major headache. People themselves are flawed and selfish and prone to believing that their time and effort and participation outweighs other peoples which leads to unfair decisions regarding loot distribution. Rangers help immensely, but lose large amounts of gc and often have to go chasing after the portions that should be theirs.

 

Almost every single one of these things could be fixed with in game protocol. I'll skip the problem of high priced death, since that's just it's own runaway thing with no one solution. (But I will point out how many more of these problems that one problem spawns. Just sayin'.)

 

-People doing instances in cheap gear: NPC gear check. He won't let you in if you don't have the appropriate level of gear on. Someone suggested that each piece of gear gets points attached to it and each instance could have a minimum number of gear points to enter. Each minute you are in the invance the game should check you for gear points (like it checks to see if any mobs are inside the fort) and kick you if you don't meet the requirements.

 

-High level fighters taking up all the lower level mobs: Cap the low level mobs and split the 120 invance. Again, I think this has already been suggested by several people.

 

-Loot distribution: Have invance mobs only drop gc. (take out the special mob drops for invances). The mobs wouldn't actually drop the gc in a bag, the game would instead keep track of what SHOULD have been dropped and would then distribute an even cut amongst all participants. (directly to storage, but with a pop up box that tells you what you got and that it went to sto. This would probably require some tweeking as to how much gc the higher end invance mobs should drop.

 

-People not actually helping: Implement a system that allows multiple people to 'report' that someone isn't fighting. If that person gets enough 'reports' they are ejected from the invance.

 

These things would eliminate some of the major problems of invances in better ways than the poll options.

Edited by Nova

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OK, cba to read through all the pages but hear is my idea, sorry if its already been mentioned....

 

Issue surrounds lower levels not having fun because higher levels kill all low mobs and then start on high lvl mobs...#

 

Solution...make it capped like DP areas at 140 a/d max (negotiable) when you go in....means is difficult to kill high lvl mobs but will require greater teamwork and tag teaming on tanking

 

Keep everything else as is but gatekeeper auto gets 1/10th share of highest MB drop (done by calculating time in gate - highest percentage gets it)

 

Another solution to the xp issue...you can choose when you enter to go as warrior or ranger and get reward set on a/d or range xp (obviously a/d gets double that of range because there are 2 skills effectively) but ....if you choose range you cannot equip any weapon except a bow...if you choose warrior you cannot equip bow.

 

That would also make for good teamwork in channel as would have to sort out who does what in the invance

 

Just a few ideas

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I will admit i haven't been playing as regularly as i used to so i'm not in on current invance happenings as much as others here atm. That being said Nova's post hits many of the issues i see as well:

-People doing instances in cheap gear: NPC gear check. He won't let you in if you don't have the appropriate level of gear on. Someone suggested that each piece of gear gets points attached to it and each instance could have a minimum number of gear points to enter. Each minute you are in the invance the game should check you for gear points (like it checks to see if any mobs are inside the fort) and kick you if you don't meet the requirements.

 

-High level fighters taking up all the lower level mobs: Cap the low level mobs and split the 120 invance. Again, I think this has already been suggested by several people.

 

-Loot distribution: Have invance mobs only drop gc. (take out the special mob drops for invances). The mobs wouldn't actually drop the gc in a bag, the game would instead keep track of what SHOULD have been dropped and would then distribute an even cut amongst all participants. (directly to storage, but with a pop up box that tells you what you got and that it went to sto. This would probably require some tweeking as to how much gc the higher end invance mobs should drop.

 

-People not actually helping: Implement a system that allows multiple people to 'report' that someone isn't fighting. If that person gets enough 'reports' they are ejected from the invance.

 

These things would eliminate some of the major problems of invances in better ways than the poll options.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

IF it's possible for the server to do an armor check then great the only one i see having a problem with is the report feature which could be abused if enough players ganged up on a specific person.

 

A personal suggestion having played several other dynamic team muliplayer games this year that might work well with invance and which some hinted at in earlier posts:

 

1. REPLACE THE GATEKEEPER! put an object or npc there that has an hp value. monsters can still be drawn there but players have to protect it.

 

2. Apply the XP given based on what the team is able to protect. If it is possible to give the gate an HP value and players are able to protect it why not also place other strategic emplacements around the map? Then if players are able to protect them they gain a bonus in xp or xp given at the end is entirely based on the amount of HP left on the various emplacements. this could be things like the towers that normally go to sto, or maybe modify the castle to have a weak point in the wall in the rear.

 

3. Monster spawners- The current system spawns monsters all at once and then there is also a chance for a second wave. What if in combination with the above emplacement idea the map has spawners. They could be randomly placed around the map and could be attacked by players only after a certain number of monsters had been killed. Or certain spawners could only be attacked after lower level ones are destroyed. In the mean time larger monsters are continually spawned from the device in waves and XP or overall team GC drops are based on A. how fast the spawners are destroyed and B. decreased XP/GC for every wave a spawner makes.

 

Just some of my randomly out there thoughts again.

PS: if some of these above hurdles are conquered in the game programming it could lead to other game play options in the future.

Edited by Elf_Ninja

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Ok, What's about Remove inVances at all and make such kind of bonus Like 1.5-2k per level for InSTances.

 

I think, it will make people more motivated since drops has been removed, and if you use scales - You don't getting any profit in average.

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Some more comments from me.

 

- many of the comments I read are only relevant to the 120+. The other invances have different problems, most proposed changes would just make them worse IMHO.

- gatekeeper currently does not need any special bonus up to the 100-120 : he/she just needs to go invis if mobs approach, and usually risks much less than the other players. If the gate is really swamped with mobs since the beginning and he/she dies, then the invance is usually lost anyway. The 120+ is different as some mobs have TS, the gatekeeper is a much tougher jobs there I guess.

- putting a constraint on the gear on entrance is fine, if it is done only at the beginning (when you pay the amber). Unless a completely different scheme is developed, checking each time you reenter may prevent people from getting back in to get their DB. It happens often enough that we want to allow (in the end it's their call to loose a rosto or risk loosing the whole armor valued 4 rostos or more).

 

- checking at each minute the gear of each player (let alone I think it would be a pain to implement in the server, but I may be mistaken on that) may kick you off the invance right after a piece of your armor breaks. This doesn't look fair at all.

 

Cheers

 

xam

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Ok, What's about Remove inVances at all and make such kind of bonus Like 1.5-2k per level for InSTances.

 

I think, it will make people more motivated since drops has been removed, and if you use scales - You don't getting any profit in average.

Good idea, just remove Naspa from Instance. I mean it gives liek 14 attack exp afterall.. people should not complain, Right?

 

Dumbest idea ever.. For instance anyways. Unless all Scales were used to reduce time, but that's another thing.

 

Red Scale = 4k

Black = 1-1.2k

Ice = 1-1.2k

blue = 1.5-2k

 

Should the bonus experience be removed from invances?

  1. Yes, and allow players to wear whatever they want and participate as much as they want.
  2. No, because people with less a/d will join the higher ones non-stop and help by "ranging" or like healing.. or gate.
  3. Yes, but keep the required gear rules AND participation rules.
  4. To much free exp given, Eh i like the exp to.. but half invances are only during one time anyways.
  5. No, leave invances as they are now.

 

If the bonus experience is removed, should there be an additional bonus per hit?

  1. Yes, 1.25 times current normal experience.
  2. Yes, 1.5 times current normal experience.
  3. Yes, 2 times current normal experience.
  4. Everyone will be fighting for mobs then.. it's like mini Tzu while training.
  5. No, leave the critter per hit experience as it is now.
  6. Does not apply as I voted to leave invances as they are now in question 1.

 

Should gatekeeper get an automatic bonus? (method to be determined)

  1. Yes, as long as only one person per invance does the job and can get the bonus. Otherwise it will be abused.
  2. No, gatekeeper just stands or sits there and doesn't do much.
  3. Gatekepper don't just stand there... they go invis :) Well some go semi-afk to.. so you have to tptr over. Gatekeeper is probably boring.. but even until this day some fight over keeper, because they can't give 100%, they busy irl cooking or something. I think already have good enough bonus, close to no chance of breaking therms, helms, and loosing rostos.
  4. Yes, with no restrictions on how many people can be gatekeeper in any given invance.
  5. Does not apply as I voted to leave invances as they are now in question 1.

 

Also, i think remove Giants, Acw, Yetis, Naspa. Just replace all with little blue dragons, 5 mbs, but no big blues (Maybe add 140+ Invance). Most people in invance now just do to acw, giants etc and try to get mobs that drop best gold. I mean hey, i never said i don't do it, i go yetis for bones cuz of speed hax.. gold is just a bonus :P, But i only do it, because people have been doing it day by day nothing being said, not fair for the one's at gate, so figured might aswell :)

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Ok, What's about Remove inVances at all and make such kind of bonus Like 1.5-2k per level for InSTances.

 

No. Not everyone has a team to join in. How about preventing those who go on Instances from going on Invances.

It is equivalent to what you are saying but everyone gets a choice not just instancers get MORE experience.

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Let me repeat: ranging in invances is NOT about xp, so anything that multiplies the ran xp (and especially if it nullifies the chance to defend yourself or make some gc when the MCs spawn) is a terrible idea.

 

Ideas I like:

Gearcheck on initial entry and perhaps before giving xp bonus (no modding needed, no penalty on breakage/loss)

caps on low level mobs (only relevant for 120+)

no-drop (for players, like kf) for lowest level invances

automatic gc distribution (probably tricky, but it really stinks to spend 100 PKA on a blue dragon and then get a scale share of 500 gc since the scales are nearly worthless now and most tanks dont share the gc).

I disagree with equal sharing of gc among all participants, there are big differences in risks and contributions/resources used.

 

Splitting the 120+ in a 120-150 and 150+ (or some other distribution, possible with overlap like 120-150 and 140+) will add another range, but might help running them more frequently. The current 120+ invances with often over 40 people just don't work well.

 

Right now a lot of people <140 a/d are actively trying NOT to get in the next invance/instance range, that is almost as weird as people trying to break their gear on purpose, and shows there is more trouble with this system than what is addressed here.

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With the cap, wouldn't that hypothetically not work if everyone who joins the invance is over the cap?

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With the cap, wouldn't that hypothetically not work if everyone who joins the invance is over the cap?

Are you coming ingame? I need to talk to you. :P

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