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Pear finder cooldown

Cooldown  

73 members have voted

  1. 1. Cooldown

    • None
      28
    • 30 Seconds
      7
    • 60 secods
      9
    • 90 seconds
      29


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When I implemented the pear finder, I didn't think about the need for a cooldown. I assumed that finding the pear will take a very long time.

Well, I was wrong, most of the times the pear is found in the first 20 minutes or so. Some people came up with very efficient ways of finding the pear, and most people gave up searching because of that.

In order to give others a fair chance, I was thinking to implement a pear cooldown time.

 

So please vote on what you think about it.

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I have never looked for a pear, but I guess Burn should take a break. lol. I dunno.

 

How will 90 seconds help if the experts can find the pear in the first 20 minutes?? *shrug*

Edited by GreyElf

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I have never looked for a pear, but I guess Burn should take a break. lol. I dunno.

 

How will 90 seconds help if the experts can find the pear in the first 20 minutes?? *shrug*

There it goes again, why vote, when you have no idea, how this influences pear hunting?

And this isn't a thread about Burn, it's about changing some pear hunting factors.

 

And yes it will slow down main pear hunters and maybe some others will find some more pears,

but the majority of pears still will be found by them. It's a matter of map knowledge, noone can limit

this. Simple as that. But if ppl actually care, a cooldown will give them a better chance eventually.

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"Most less than 20 minutes" is not true, a falsehood that's been distributed by people who happen to see those times blue spammed, but don't notice when it takes an hour or two. The former gets wtfs, "hax", and other stuff posted by people in 6, the latter normally gets no response adding to the falsehood belief.

 

 

Some Real Numbers

 

Actual number stats based on last 98 hunt attempts (direct from my LibreOffice Calc file):

 

Average time before found (whether by me or not): 26 minutes

 

Which by definition of average, half the attempts took more than that time. Thus "most less than 20 minutes" is not true.

 

(Only slightly off in that this only includes hunts I was online and attempted.)

 

 

 

Fastest find: 1 minute ... lucked out in that it was the first map I checked, and in the 3rd harvestable checked. (Naralik catacombs)

 

Longest time to find it (by anyone of those 98 times): 93 minutes (by me, Willowvine Forest)

 

 

 

Number of times it was eventually declared unharvable (of those 98): 7

 

 

Longest time wasted with noone finding it: 150 minutes (PV, at that point declared to be unreachable with 4 of us looking. Everyone had given up by this point.)

 

*note that's 150 minutes wasted with no gain to show for it, the kind of thing people who don't look don't take into consideration

 

Actually, that last part not quite true. There was that one time 8-10 people tried to find it on White Stone with noone finding it. I didn't participate in that so it's not included in these stats.

 

 

 

Would this affect the hunters? Not really. It'll make it more difficult to bring the price down as time spent on the hunt gets included in the price, hurting the people who actually use the pears, but not much else. I'll remind that 70kgc is a pain threshold for their cost based on sales experience. I brought it down the past month 63kgc (and a discount to that for my regular customers) with plans to drop it more.

 

Be very careful implementing anything that may cause a price hike, they may be made "not worth it", completely nullifying their value. Not saying this would do that, just be careful in that area. Reminder that only a maximum of 4 can come into the game on any given real life day as it is, with less when they get deemed unreachable or show up on a map like White Stone with slim to no chance of being found.

 

 

 

 

As Raistlin said, it's map knowledge that's a primary factor. Many have spent their time "closest to sto" or "best training spots". Those of us who have taken time to actually explore and look at the maps over the years are the ones who are now reaping some benefit from having spent all that non-leveling time. It's the ones who haven't done that who are doing most of the complaining. They didn't "level" their map knowledge because there's no experience to it, and until the pear finders were added, little benefit. Their complaints would be comparable to me complaining I can't mix a white wizard hat because I haven't leveled tailoring high enough, just there's no actual "skill level that adds to OA" involved.

 

 

(And with both Stivy and Malameo regularly hunting and finding them along with me, I'm noting the more personal nature that is actually behind some of this already showing here by only me being mentioned above. Bad news for those voting for that reason, you're already on a level playing field, all this will do is make a slower level playing field.)

 

 

BTW, radu, in reference to your question above about finding it fast despite cooldown, my "1 minute find" above would be an example of that. But still, randomness dictates that could happen to anyone.

 

 

Some people came up with very efficient ways of finding the pear, and most people gave up searching because of that.

 

This actually says more about why there are so few finding them than anything else. There's nothing stopping others from finding that "efficient" way as well other than unwillingness to spend the time, effort, and gc on it that we did. This cooldown if implemented won't change that, it's "player mentality" at issue, not function. Stivy's "late entry" into the hunting competition is proof that it can still be done if actually tried.

Edited by Burn

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"Most less than 20 minutes" is not true

Average time before found (whether by me or not): 26 minutes

 

Which by definition of average, half the attempts took more than that time. Thus "most less than 20 minutes" is not true.

The average of an ensemble is a very poor indication on the probability of items found below or above the average value. The mathematical function you look for is the median which indicates the 50% quantile, thus 50% probability of values are found below and above by its definition - independent on the actual shape of the distribution of values. Generally, the average of an ensemble is highly biased by a few extrem outliers (or generally the skew), in this case the times a pear is only found after very a long time.

 

Side note: only for a Gaussian distribution the median equals the average. On grounds that negative times cannot occur, a rather a Poisson distribution would be appropriate.

 

All spreadsheet programmes also know the function median.

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IMHO adding a 24 hour cooldown time after finding a pear would make it fair for those who would like to look for pears.

Just like Dailies. After completeing one u have to wait 24 hours before doing another one.

Edited by Norad

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IMHO adding a 24 hour cooldown time after finding a pear would make it fair for those who would like to look for pears.

Just like Dailies. After completeing one u have to wait 24 hours before doing another one.

Like that idea more - so have not voted

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Be very careful implementing anything that may cause a price hike, they may be made "not worth it", completely nullifying their value. Not saying this would do that, just be careful in that area. Reminder that only a maximum of 4 can come into the game on any given real life day as it is, with less when they get deemed unreachable or show up on a map like White Stone with slim to no chance of being found.

 

 

"Fair" is already implemented, in that nothing gives anyone an advantage over anyone else other than willingness to actually try, and overcome the very steep learning curve that costs a lot of time and gc. The same curve those of us who do find it now also had to endure.

 

The "I want it all, I want it cheap, I want it now" mindset is primarily what keeps others from finding it, nothing else. The unwillingness to spend weeks failing to find it (just as I did) spending an untold amount of time and gc perfecting the hunt method. The real cost for this rare item has to be paid upfront, and few are willing to do that.

 

 

 

There is currently a very fine economic line that could easily turn pears into something that's never used at all, like so many other things in-game.

 

The economic perspective in keeping them actually useable has to be the first consideration, not the unwillingness of others to put in the effort a few have.

 

 

 

You're still not changing things with even this suggestion. Say it was implemented. Mala, Stivy, and I likely find 3 of the 4 pears as we've already paid the learning curve price noone will address. That leaves 1 a day, assuming 1 doesn't end up unreachable.

 

(As it is, I normally get 1 a day anyway, maybe 2, others mostly going to mala, stivy, unreachable, or the occasional rare other person. Not a real difference here.)

 

And that's still up to 4 times you'd have to try, failing most of the time.

 

The only thing that can change that is people being willing to go through the expensive, time-consuming learning curve, like we did. But rather than do that, people keep suggesting ways they think will make it easier on them, because putting effort into something has always been an issue in this game.

Edited by Burn

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I voted 90 seconds. Some people are finding it way too fast. It's been found once under a minute and quite a few times under two minutes.

An advantage to cooldown is it gives more people the incentive to search because they will feel they have a chance.

At the moment, people just don't bother because they know burn/malameo and only a handful of people are going to find it first.

A 90 second cooldown between using pear finders plus an additional 24 hour cooldown (if not more) after you successfully find a pear will fix the situation.

Also economically speaking, a few people monopolizing pears is definitely not good.

It's not unwillingness of others. That excuse doesn't work all the time. It's the lack of incentive that comes from others finding the pear in very low times.

Edited by hussam

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well, how many people are actually interested in looking for a pear on a regular basis and in spending the gc for a pear finder or in learning all the places it might likley be?

And I would also be interested in hearing how this would affect the two other more regular pear finders as well as from others who would seriously consider finding the pear.

If nobody else is interested, all I see this in doing is harassing those who are doing it. If ,however, there are those who are interested but who seriously feel too overwhelmed to begin,

having some sort of cool down may be the answer, whether it is a 90 second or a daily, I am not sure which is better. Seems 90 seconds would be more logical to start.

although stivy is an example that someone can find it, although I would imagine, knowing stivy a bit, that his map knowledge is pretty good, since he is a fairly regular old player.

And by the way, Elke, you are right on in your stats. I am a bio/phys anth major but I had my share of math and stats classes and the median time, not average, is far more

accurate here. And that time is not given but I would guess Radu is probably close to being right, though don't have burn's actually data of the 98 tries so cant figure the equation here.

Also, excellent work keeping track of these times burn. And I understand how you might feel having been singled out as "The Pear Hunter" when actually there are others who are also

finding it with some success.

Anyway, lets here it from some who would really seriously hunt and why they are not hunting now, and what would have to happen to make them hunt. If Radu wants to seriously get more interested in hunting it,

I say that would be a good thing. If however, implementing cool downs and such would not do such a thing, I would see it as counterproductive and even a sort of (perhaps unintentional) harassment of those who are looking.

I will vote if more will answer with well thought out responses.

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The "lack of incentive" won't change with this. As I explained in the bottom of my previous post.

 

If you truly want to hunt and benefit from finding pears, you are going to HAVE to pay the exhorbtant starting learning curve that those of us who find it now have already paid (and Stivy is currently still paying despite several finds).

 

The incentive won't change with this. Us "same people" who have already paid that steep cost will still be finding the overwhelming majority of them combined, for the sole reason that we've paid the cost involved. People using that as their supposed excuse will still be using it.

 

There is absolutely no avoiding paying that steeping learning curve cost of gc for finders, time, and true effort learning fastest methods and learning the maps.

 

For that reason, it's not for everyone. (Just as invances/pk/Neno hunting/etc. aren't for me.) Not everyone will have the ability to do everything in-game. And the unwillingness to put that effort in is the one and only hindrance to being a hunter. Suffering through weeks of watching others find them when you're trying to look. I did it, despite malameo's "monopoly" at the time. Stivy is doing it now despite Mala and myself. There's nothing stopping anyone else as well other than unwillingness to pay that price.

 

Too many people would rather have something rare tossed in their lap than actually put effort into it.

Edited by Burn

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Yethq, a regular basis is not needed. I am sure some people will try a pear finder or two a day or occasionally and accidentally find a pear if they feel they can be competitive. It will eventually sparkle more interest. Think of it as a service to the community.

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Yethq, a regular basis is not needed. I am sure some people will try a pear finder or two a day or occasionally and accidentally find a pear if they feel they can be competitive. It will eventually sparkle more interest. Think of it as a service to the community.

 

Something that simple can be done as it now stands. Someone did it in KF (last week I think) publicly on 6.

 

There's 100 or so maps to check, that any hunter checks the specific one you're on early on is a crapshoot when you're talking about 40 minutes or more to run through them all. Try one, try one in an internal harvable map nearby. You're almost guaranteed to be the first to try that map at start of a new day.

 

 

 

(There was, for example, a time just a few days ago that I spent quite a long time, using 73 finders, only for someone to find the pear before I even found the map. That's not uncommon, and part of the price of being a hunter.)

Edited by Burn

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I voted 'None'.

 

The system seems fine as it is. I've never hunted a pear, but the ones that do it on a regular basis seem to do quite well,

and use knowledge that's not really used in any other way. The learning curve for someone starting now might be

steeper that for the first hunters: there's more competition now, so more chance the pear is found by someone else.

 

So the first ones to start hunting the pears regularly when pear finders came in reaped a nice benefit.

 

But, before pear finders came in game there was already a technique to at least give you a fair chance of finding a pear

and some players did get more than their 'fair share' (whatever that might have been). I know of at least one such player.

Iirc, no one started an outcry against the lucky ones then.

 

This whole screaming about pear finding sounds a bit false to me, but nicely in keeping with a trend I've seen in other skills:

- good mages appeared, that had invested PP, time and gc in improving their magic => "magic is overpowered"

- good rangers appeared, that had invested PP, time and gc in improving their ranging => "ranging is overpowered"

- someone figures out how to use bombs etc. efficiently => "he's cheating", etc.

- someone gets good at using pear finders => "we need to change the pear finders"....

I'd say we need to change the players, but that might be a bit harder to do...

 

So, no, I see no reason to change how the pear finders work.

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Yeah, that's pretty much it.

 

The learning curve for someone starting now might be

steeper that for the first hunters

 

I'd disagree on this one point. The learning process (fastest routes, where are the harvables on each map, getting through the maps checking harvs efficiently) is the same no matter who or how many hunters there are. Which is why I have kept saying that even today, anyone can join in if they're willing to put up the effort, time, and gc like we did.

 

Once that's gotten to a certain point, where the player is just as efficient in doing those things as myself/mala/stivy, it's all up to luck. These days whether you see my name or mala's (and improving by the day Stivy) really is luck, and well, who's online at the time. Anyone who takes the time and effort to go through the process will just get their name put in with ours, as to who finds it "out of luck".

 

Luck in both finding the map quickly (with 40+ minutes to check all, it could be first for one person and 50th for another), thus starting harv check quicker, and as well, luck in being the first to stumble on the correct harv.

Edited by Burn

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90 seconds gives 2h+ to find the right map assuming it's the last one you check. then the usual [from 0 to find/give up]. and it will be the same people looking/finding. you think i can't get a small team to use some more finders for me because i have cooldown... changing average from 20 or 26 minutes to 1h or 1.5h would just make me consider conspiring with others to raise the pear price. sure, if you get lucky and find the map you will get 30 mins alone in it instead of 5-15 until someone else finds it. big whoop. you gave us a fun thing to do, why take it away. most of you don't need pears anyway, go find those nexus removals (i never got one, there should be a limit of 1 per player or 3 years cooldown!)

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Getting "Ebul": What we're gonna do is, since these people over here have done well and worked hard, we're gonna take the value out of the effort they put into being so well, and distribute it among these people who aren't willing to put in the effort even though they can!

 

Yes we can!

 

*wins the election*

 

</gettingebul>

 

Though seriously, that's exactly what it is, and feels like on this end.

 

I haven't worked hard enough on my a/d to kill a dragon on my own, can we have their stats dropped so I can? ... What? What do you mean those who can earned it? I'm entitled!

 

 

 

No conspiracy needed for the price btw. The longer it takes, the higher the price. At least one of my buyers is possibly concerned about this, having bought more today since this thread started than they normally do in a week. (So I guess a thanks for starting the thread, I needed some gc at this time, hehe.)

Edited by Burn

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Yeah, that's pretty much it.

 

The learning curve for someone starting now might be

steeper that for the first hunters

 

I'd disagree on this one point. The learning process (fastest routes, where are the harvables on each map, getting through the maps checking harvs efficiently) is the same no matter who or how many hunters there are. Which is why I have kept saying that even today, anyone can join in if they're willing to put up the effort, time, and gc like we did.

(...)

Yes, that's true. I should have said that the cost of learning might have increased now, as more pears will be found by the experienced hunters before you learn enough. Otoh, cost for them will increase when competition increases (as the number of failed hunts for each will increase).

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I like that adding cooldown to the finders will encourage more teaming up to look for the pears. Yay teamwork!

 

I still think that, even with cooldown on the finders, there should be cooldown on the pears themselves too. One every 24 hours should do nicely.

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I like that adding cooldown to the finders will encourage more teaming up to look for the pears. Yay teamwork!

 

Wanted also to see a 24h cooldown on pearfinders (or less, but more than only 90 seconds)

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Voted for a 90 second cooldown.

 

 

 

There is absolutely no avoiding paying that steeping learning curve cost of gc for finders, time, and true effort learning fastest methods and learning the maps.

 

 

You keep bringing this up. I know people who for certain have a knowledge of maps, locations, easiest paths, etc that absolutely meets yours. Hell, I used to be one of them until i started fading from the game.

 

Sure, you, and malameo, and perhaps stivy now, but also finja/maxine a few months ago did invest a lot of time and worked to get yourselves a headstart at the game of pearfinding. And sure, perhaps it isn't for everyone. But it shouldn't be for SUCH a niche group either.

 

The last time i came back to play for a while, the pearfinding thing was already going on, and within a few weeks, pearfinders were introduced. Actually having a real life, a lack of playtime and a lack of ingame funds all contributed to me not jumping at the occasion straightaway. By the time I did have a little more time, the people that had apparently had more time to spend on this, already had such routines in place that it's practically impossible to beat you. And yes, I admit, there's no way in hell I'm gonna keep trying it at every new day, pay attention to the time ingame when I'm actually doing stuff around the house, to start preparing at say 15 mins before the new day, then race around the game for a while to each and every time be beaten to the punch. And yes, I even found the actual map a few times and then was still beaten to it.

 

I also know there are more people in the very same situation. We're not all headless chickens with no experience whatsoever, nor are we all 'lazy whiners'. But just as you feel you shouldn't be punished for investing a lot of your RL time in EL, I feel strongly that people who only have a few hours a day should still be able to partake in such a thing as pearfinding, and should not be getting as discouraged as clearly certain people currently are (and no, that does not include myself).

Edited by Dilly

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Then it's not for you. Just like invances, pk, neno hunting, instances, and high-level invasions aren't for me. There's other things for you to do in-game, there's no validity for that to be a reason to ruin things for those of us who can, and enjoy the race/competition, which btw this really is the only "race" in the game. It's very unique and different in almost every aspect from everything else in the game.

 

Which is why it was appealing from the beginning and I still find it fun to do, whether I find it or not. There's an actual challenge to it.

 

But, past experience has shown everybody ends up wanting everything the same. You'd think you'd get enough of that from the daily grind.

 

You people really don't get that you're also making an attempt to suck the life out of a competition to the point you're gonna end up getting bored and stop if you do get things your way. Then not only will you not be looking anymore but those of us who actually enjoyed it are left out.

 

But, that goes along with a previous poster's spot-on statement, that this is also meant to punish those of us who have earned the experience.

 

------------

 

 

Economic viewpoint: A team of even just 2 people will eventually figure out that they'd have been more productive gc-wise harving iron, esp. when they find they can't sell the pear because these suggestions put the cost too high to make them worth buying. And they'll quit. Team actions have also already been tried and failed.

 

 

 

(And the ex-players who can't/don't play any more are starting to arrive to play their personal vendetta games, not actually caring about the subject just trying to screw things up, so the poll is no longer going to show any valid opinion.)

Edited by Burn

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does it always have to be about you? i'm not an ex player and no your not the center of my universe.

 

just saying a 90 sec cooldown would be fair, or make them act like treasure finders.

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