Invance Helping and Gear Poll

[saxum]

Poll is too absolute using a sledge hammer 'for any reason' - if there are 30 players left and one monster not everyone can be helping. If you leave to get essences to remotely heal, minimally useful spell at certain levels, and creature killed you get no experience for effort but if you don't you are not helping from start to finish. Poll is badly designed.

[Cabman]

A couple of problems with this whole process:

 

Firstly:

 

Voting for question 2 is more of a question of do you think there should be minimums in general terms

 

This was not what the original post said. What was said was:

 

Second, we are voting on whether or not we want to define "good gear" in terms of the barest minimum we are willing to accept in an invance.

 

Minimum gear we are voting on:...

 

A minimum gear set was proposed and initial voting was based on that. Subsequent to criticism, the minimum gear requirements were changed in the first post, yet I don't see any notification of an edit in that post.

 

Secondly, I don't think the problems with invances are the same across all different ranges. Modifications to the gameplay (if they are required) should not group the 50 a/d with the 150 a/d. They have different goals and different styles of play.

 

I posted my comments about the 40-60 & 60-80 invances in this post, http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=57405&st=20&p=568909entry568909, and I stand behind it.

 

When asked if in general I think that invances should have minimum gear requirements, I would respond "probably yes". But I cannot agree to ridiculous gear requirements for low lvl players. It will simply kill the lower level invances if players are scared to go (or can't go) based on their gear and the fear of repercussions from the moderators. Whether you should "help", that is a given, and already covered by the rules.

[Aislinn]

@cabman: Yes, I also said in my original post the gear would be tweaked and that was our starting point. I also posted in the thread when I changed it. So yes, you are voting on the concept in general and the specifics would be tweaked as we went along and people posted valid arguments for something different. And that has happened, and is still a work in progress.

 

Augs are ridiculous?

And of course each range has different requirements. But standing around while others do the work issues apply regardless which range you are in.

 

@saxum: Myself and others commented (if you had read through) on that exact scenario you mentioned and I said that wasn't the problem and is not a problem. Also if you had actually read the thread, you will see the "helping" listed were examples of how else people could help in addition to basic whack the critter melee. None are absolute, and listing them doesn't mean each one is always appropriate for every mob or situation.

 

"...for any reason". Honestly, how can one keep using that same situation to cover everything else that's a problem? "One dragon left, 8 people on it, I don't want to be banned for not helping too." How many times do people have to say that isn't the problem and won't be? We aren't talking this, we're talking the rest of the invance when there are still other mobs roaming around and people just hang around.

[OlenTheRed]

The gear requirements for the lower level invances are player killers its hard getting a team together as it is and yes we might lose alot, but we try. We dont lose invances because were not wearing the right gear we lose because we are mostly just newbies having fun to pass the time. The only way to really figure out whose helping or not is to have moderation present at all the invances. Players are gonna complain no matter what is decided especially if they lose, and we all have our favorite skills and style *why kill that with gear rules. Maybe it would be best to sit back and let nature take its course on this one.

[Faxie]

The gear requirements for the lower level invances are player killers its hard getting a team together as it is and yes we might lose alot, but we try. We dont lose invances because were not wearing the right gear we lose because we are mostly just newbies having fun to pass the time. The only way to really figure out whose helping or not is to have moderation present at all the invances. Players are gonna complain no matter what is decided especially if they lose, and we all have our favorite skills and style *why kill that with gear rules. Maybe it would be best to sit back and let nature take its course on this one.

 

I agree with Olen 100% here .. I love his last sentence ...

[Viperwitch]

@Aislinn

I am confused with Question #1

Helping: Do you think it is ok for invancers to hang around doing nothing (for any reason) even though there are multiple ways to still help and others are still fighting?

 

I voted NO, but I am confused. Would it be mandatory to fight all the time none-stop, or person should be allowed a bread if she/he is on diss cooldown?

Also, I spend 1min of not fighting high mobs if mana is at 0. 1 min to get 50% mana filled.

Should we modify a little may be? Attacking while diss is cooling if you get hit by something big and no mana you die.

If attack before you got even 1 restore you can die as well.

If attack at 0 mana and diss cooldown guoranteed death if mob very high

Should it be a little changed may be? So, players don't face impossible choise attack and die or wait and may be be banned for rule breaking?

[Viperwitch]

1 more thing

Range 60-80 die a lot and col needs a rosto really. I don't think that making col mandatory here be a good idea those who just can't afford it can't go then?

Loosing col to bag jumper would need them a week plus to buy again. Some save for it for weeks.

 

I really don't know hwre

Also, iron set give -2 or -3 cold damage those who can't restore only heal at 10hp per time gonna be tought for them.

[Rabbitman]

You are not required to die. You are only required to be either spotting mobs/fighting/ranging/healing or muling he/sr for tanks the entire time aside for reasonable length restocks.

 

Hopefully that was clear enough, correct me if I'm wrong ^^.

 

Rabbitman

[Viperwitch]

I don't range no AP

My remote heal is 15HP

When I on cd/mana refill I can't do anything else my limitation is that bad

What should I do then?

[Rabbitman]

Bring ae and md fcw/tigers/giants/yeti to recover mana faster.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Rabbitman

[D34DLY]

Requiring dedicated rangers, mages, and summoners to take human nexus is not the right way to achieve the goal, in my opinion. In many cases the human nexus required to use the suggested gear would be used only for invance entering and would otherwise be useless because the skills used by these "classes" doesn't rely on the use of human nexus. I have been on one invance (40-60). In augs and with an iron sword, I contributed to the successful completion of the invance as much or more than anyone and did as much or more damage as any of the participants. The gear idea seems to be related to the "helping" idea in that if you aren't geared "properly" how can you properly help? Gearing properly is really a matter of what skills a person focuses on, and I suggest we work on refining the "helping" requirement and forget a gear requirement that is only an artificial approximation of helping that would exclude some players from future invances.

Edited September 26, 2012 by D34DLY

[nathanstenzel]

This is a classless game. If a person wants to specialize in magic or summoning and that is how they help, so be it. Please don't shove armor on them.

 

Invance completion bonus could be scaled back based on time outside the fort while on that map vs elapsed time of the invance.

 

Moderators should be able to do #no_invance_xp player to turn off their completion bonus for that invance and the server should log how much xp it would have been for future reference so they can give it to them if their judgement changes. Removing xp instead of banning means they will only risk their xp and not being banned for something they don't think they should be banned for.

[SunriseCoder]

Well, my point of the view - 40-60 invance should be allowed to use leather set and iron sword. When my alt was closer to 50-55 a/d, he killed up to 100-150 mobs per invance solo using leather set, iron sword and only 40 mana points. I consider, it's good help, don't it? We went together with one strong guy, who tanked fluffies/feroses, when we attacked them together, and I killed other weak mobs around for they don't attack him (or he can get def penalty).

 

What's about 60-80 inva? Same bosses, but added few regular mobs - Ogres, Armed Fem Orcs, Cyclops, Lions... With a/d 60/65 I can kill

Hawk, Polar Bear, Leopard, Male Orc, Armed Female Orc and Male Ogre. I think, closer to a/d 75-80 I will be able to kill Cyclops and Lions. That's all solo, in leather set and with 40 mana points only. I didn't were inside 60-80 yet, because it forbidden with leather set now, but I tested on regular mobs.

 

What's about 80-100? Here, I think, suicide go there without CoL or RDHoLaM, because chimmies and yeti.

What's about 100-120? Here no reasons come w/o dragon set, RDHoLaM and Gather med, or you will tank every monsters and will out of ings very fast or just die.

What's about 120-200? I'm too young yet, didn't were there, and I can't say anything, but I think, it's something like I said about 100-120.

 

Well, conclusion. As we saw above, if people will fight - they will bring armor (if they can take it on). We just should to prevent slackers, like somebody recently said: "Guys, I will not tank if I will not get drops", or people who just doing nothing, but I really would be pleased if somebody around can kill WTs, PWs and other weak mobs which make a noise when you killing naspas solo in 100-120 or so on main char. I consider, people should doing something useful, that's very important. Armor - it's just secondary stuff...

 

PS. Armor is not so expensive for me. For me expensive hydro bars which I have to use for buy nexuses, which required for wearing good armor.

PPS. Making 350 hydro bars is very long process, it can take up to half of year, but haidir gives me good exp for dailies, so I think, I will be about 100+ when I'll finish, so if I will not be allowed to use leather set (or max possible with my human nexuses), I just will have to skip invances. And I know a some people who started alts just for do 'Hydro way' - buying nexuses by hydro only. I bet, they will not go there too

[SunriseCoder]

Just got an idea!

 

What's about if I will enter 60-80 invance in leather set, when we will be about 10-20 mobs left, I will ask team something like that: "Did I helped enough for get exp?" If people will vote "no" - I will put all drops in front of gates and will beam out before invance over. If people vote "yes" - I will keep the drops and get exp.

 

What do you think about it?

[Tico]

Just got an idea!

 

What's about if I will enter 60-80 invance in leather set, when we will be about 10-20 mobs left, I will ask team something like that: "Did I helped enough for get exp?" If people will vote "no" - I will put all drops in front of gates and will beam out before invance over. If people vote "yes" - I will keep the drops and get exp.

 

What do you think about it?

 

I think you live in the strawberry world

[SunriseCoder]

Just got an idea!

 

What's about if I will enter 60-80 invance in leather set, when we will be about 10-20 mobs left, I will ask team something like that: "Did I helped enough for get exp?" If people will vote "no" - I will put all drops in front of gates and will beam out before invance over. If people vote "yes" - I will keep the drops and get exp.

 

What do you think about it?

 

I think you live in the strawberry world

 

Well, don't be surprised then why people don't go to invances and staying farming mobs...

 

UPD:

 

[PM from mercator: This warning was for the Levels : 40-60]

[PM from mercator: That Invance has started 13 Days 23 Hours 38 Minutes ago.]

 

[PM from mercator: This warning was for the Levels : 60-80]

[PM from mercator: That Invance has started 1 Days 20 Hours 44 Minutes ago.]

 

[PM from mercator: This warning was for the Levels : 80-100]

[PM from mercator: That Invance has started 8 Days 20 Hours 52 Minutes ago.]

 

[PM from mercator: This warning was for the Levels : 100-120]

[PM from mercator: That Invance has started 1 Days 23 Minutes ago.]

 

[PM from mercator: This warning was for the Levels : 120-200]

[PM from mercator: That Invance has started 3 Hours 31 Minutes ago.]

[PM from mercator: Hope you like this Service of Mercator]

Edited October 2, 2012 by SunriseCoder

[birdie]

i voted no on both. obviously if you are entering an invance you should help all the way through it unless you entered ready to fight and then something popped up in rl then yes by all means i think its fine to be afk as rl is more important as long as you went with the intention of giving a good helping hand. the second question i voted no but that question doesn't really bother me either way im in between yes and no really. if you have the gear take it if you don't have the gear that you think you might need then maybe you shouldn't go (imo that should be up to the person as long as they know they can still be a decent help). i have a alt char in the 40-60 range i haven't taken that one on an invance yet because i automatically thought i wouldn't be able to do it until i read this thread as he has no armor apart from a rdholam i never thought augs would be enough but apparently it is.

 

Basically if you can still be a help without the expensive stuff then i cant see a problem, however if you cant be a useful help don't bother going until you can.

[SolarStar]

Don't forget that many are scared of the invances and think they are too weak and will not even try it ! Many wait until they are almost out of the level range and then jump ahead and end up beeing a newbie in the new range again. Any ideas how to encourage people to go more often to invance ? (Not talking of the 120-200 , you go often enough )

[Infamous]

Necro \o/

 

Anyways, I have noticed that the smaller teams need all the help they can get.

Yesterday I was in such invance for the 120-200 range, 6 people showed up of which one left and logged off after dieing.

To make a long story short I was there, killed alot of stuff and we finished with about ~20mins left.

But usually these small invances happen in US timezone while i'm at work, so yesterday I might have had to go afk for ~30mins

so now the question is.. if I were to go afk during that invance would that result in a boot from invance and/or ban?

 

The low amount of time left leaves me to think that without my help the invance would probably have failed, as i did help with all 3 MB's, some of the dragons and alot of everything else. So would that still be considered as not helping? as I do go afk but still play a vital role in that invances success i'm confused...

[Maxine]

Personally I think you helped a lot and were entitled to the xp. In practice moderators will respond to reports (preferably an #abuse during the invance) that someone is "not helping". In this case I doubt anyone on the team would do such an abuse, so no problem.

[dark_wizzie1]

I agree. Too many rules for this kind of stuff. If people piss others off, they'll report and they'll be a goner.

[CherUT]

I have to say in the invance infa mentioned we needed all the help we could get. With 5 of us it took a lot of team work. In the same sense had one of us went afk for more than a few minutes the end result very well might have been different.

[Grort]

I've done small invances (5-6 people) where 2-3 people where kitted in auggies (2 rangers and a mage usually ) and they were essential to complete the invance. And I'm not sure anyone really reports you for auggies in the invances under lvl 100 invances, because all we care about is if you help - unless your some sad sod who wants someone to be kicked for helping you win exp.

[Rokk]

I've done small invances (5-6 people) where 2-3 people where kitted in auggies (2 rangers and a mage usually ) and they were essential to complete the invance. And I'm not sure anyone really reports you for auggies in the invances under lvl 100 invances, because all we care about is if you help - unless your some sad sod who wants someone to be kicked for helping you win exp.

 

agreed, healing and harming in auggies is great help, not every one chooses the path of a warrior, most mix, range, summon cast etc. it seems we need to prevent invances from becoming elitist to the cream of the warrior world, besides thats what instances are for no?

[nathanstenzel]

I've done small invances (5-6 people) where 2-3 people where kitted in auggies (2 rangers and a mage usually ) and they were essential to complete the invance. And I'm not sure anyone really reports you for auggies in the invances under lvl 100 invances, because all we care about is if you help - unless your some sad sod who wants someone to be kicked for helping you win exp.

 

agreed, healing and harming in auggies is great help, not every one chooses the path of a warrior, most mix, range, summon cast etc. it seems we need to prevent invances from becoming elitist to the cream of the warrior world, besides thats what instances are for no?

Agreed. Invances are a place to fight where you can actually restock, unlike instances. The mages and archers will usually need to restock more than the fighters will. If archers and mages can't wear low emu gear, they will have to restock more and will be of less use. Good armor is no guaranty that a person will be of use. Someone with bad fighting attributes and great armor can still be killed by over half of the invance monsters.

 

Lets not forget summoners either. I can't tell you how many times a summoner has saved my butt in an invance. Low emu armor means more summons. A skilled summoner could probably save your butt with simple brown rabbits (it is a timing thing).