New invance rules discussion

[Infamous]

and i don't care seeing someone in augs, or someone standing around looking at me killing something.

And if everyone did that, that's the end of invances.

 

Yes it's a game but the point of this mini-game within the game is to be pushed beyond normal in a combat situation. If combat isn't fun for you, you shouldn't be going. If you don't want to fight, you shouldn't be going. If you want to stand around and watch others earn your experience for you, you shouldn't be going.

 

 

not really, so what if people go in augs? they might not finish the invance? oh dear. they won't get exp and will learn for next time, if they want exp go help more and bring better armor next time, repeat untill invances do result in a win. does it have to be enforced? no, people will keep nitpicking on people they don't like no matter how much you define the rules, the more defined the more complaints keep coming in because you add more reasons to the rules for people to abuse eachother.

 

A wise person once said something along the lines of: You don't need an invance every day, not the end of the world if you don't go every day.

not an exact quote but it's the same point. you don't need to go invances every day, invances shouldn't be a guaranteed win and certain exp. you don't need the huge exp bonus every time a invance is given. (kinda surprised i'm the one saying it and not you O.o)

sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. the development team has no business in setting up ways to guarantee a win. why don't we just ask for an invance and get the 200k+ exp the moment it is announced?

 

although i do agree, obviously afk'ing and not helping at all shouldn't be allowed. although someone who avoids strong monsters and does help out on other things still contributes. and i'm fine with that.

sure it sucks if you lose and it's easy to blame someone who has less armor/stats, but still i'd rather spend 100k more then someone else and get an occasional win or loss, then have the development team enforce/direct your every movement in order for the invance to win, just takes all the fun out of it if you have to be carefull every time you go worrying about stepping on someones toes.

 

edit: btw should add if you help more/kill more you get more drops and chances for rare drops, so you get rewarded more then someone who kills less anyway.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Infamous

[Stronze]

im a pure ranger and in th 60-80 bracket.

 

all the players involved have never complained of my tactics with a mixture of training bolts and pk bolts.

i kill lesser mobs with training arrows and kill bosses with pk bolts.

 

its alot cheaper on me and honestly, killing a clops with pk bolts is a waste of money.

i can half clops hp before melee reaches them and do a decent job of help melee people out from the wall.

 

since im normally the best ranger on the wall, i tend to stay on wall and keep an eye on the gate.

but when i do leave gate, i pick a melee person and follow them and ranging anything they fight.

 

on the issue of gear, i think bring what ever.

weaker armor you have, the more SR's and HE's you burn up.

as long as you can kill with in respect of your lvl.

[Zaer]

Well to be honest I heard that in the new WoW expansion there's a system where you must undergo a one hour situation based test in front of a GM before you're allowed to go in any dungeons or raids.

 

Looks like all the big games will be adopting this approach soon.

[Viperwitch]

Well to be honest I heard that in the new WoW expansion there's a system where you must undergo a one hour situation based test in front of a GM before you're allowed to go in any dungeons or raids.

 

Looks like all the big games will be adopting this approach soon.

We aren't a big

I wish we were tho it be a lot more fun with more different people.

EL must change and radically for it to become more popular and attract more players may be from other games.

And Zaer you are correct here is such system on WoW. I know cuz my sister is giving me grieff for past week over it. She keeps failing ''initiation test'' or ''graduation test'' or what ever it is called. For those who fail it they cannot go to higher level places even if their skill level etc is higher enought.

[Infamous]

lol? WoW has no such things, i think what you mean is raids, which are organized by your guild. if you don't get invited it's a social thing, and mods don't interfere.

 

which is exactly what this situation is, a social issue between people begging developers to direct everyone like (P/M)uppets.

should remain a social issue between people, if people can't work together they don't deserve the exp period. let them figure it out among themselves.

 

to what extremes are we gonna go to ensure everyone does and brings the same to invances? if a majority has 20 bought PP's are we gonna set a requirement of atleast having 15 bought PP's to enter invance? after all PP buyers contribute more.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Infamous

[loir]

I think whatever the rules are finally decided they should be hard coded so it's impossible to break the rules. I'm sure the mods have better things to do than spend all these hours policing invances and listening to complaints about somebody not following the rules.

[Elke]

although i do agree, obviously afk'ing and not helping at all shouldn't be allowed. although someone who avoids strong monsters and does help out on other things still contributes. and i'm fine with that.

sure it sucks if you lose and it's easy to blame someone who has less armor/stats, but still i'd rather spend 100k more then someone else and get an occasional win or loss, then have the development team enforce/direct your every movement in order for the invance to win, just takes all the fun out of it if you have to be carefull every time you go worrying about stepping on someones toes.

 

edit: btw should add if you help more/kill more you get more drops and chances for rare drops, so you get rewarded more then someone who kills less anyway.

+1. And especially the last sentence should imho silence all those who whine about someone supposedly or actually being afk. Active melee people get their reward not only in XP but also in gc. Active mages and rangers might get a share, but also get their additional XP by actually using their skill.

[scowper]

I've been attending the 100-120 as a summoner

 

For equipment I use a CoM / MoM / Mage Robes / Dragon Blade / Red Dragon Greave / Summoning Cloak

 

I've been mostly providing a screen of tank rabbits for the fighters / rangers (between 60 and 90 summoned per invance) as well as hawks for offense (between 4 and 18 summoned per invance). I also bring fluffy stones / PW stones / tiger stones / bear stones for the times when I am out of mana. I have also upon occasion summoned ACW when things got real tough.

 

I don't often directly kill monsters, but have taken out Nasps and giants with hawks when needed. I really am there more to provide defense so the fighters and rangers take less damage and can more easily kill stuff. If my tanks can take the heat off of the fighters or distract a monster while a ranger shoots it the I believe I am helping out.

 

--------------------------------

In-game name: JRats

[Nova]

I think whatever the rules are finally decided they should be hard coded so it's impossible to break the rules. I'm sure the mods have better things to do than spend all these hours policing invances and listening

to complaints about somebody not following the rules.

 

+1

It would be really great to see the game deal with this stuff rather than asking the players who are already busy trying not to die to watch and report on other players.

[Caleneth]

I am a ranger in 100-120 invance.

 

Armour: In 80-100 steel set was fine, but in 100-120 it's advisable to wear something better. I myself wear ice dragon as the tougher monsters hit quite hard. I would suggest a minimum of steel set as a rule for those invances.

 

Bows: I use my elven on the wall and my recurve on the ground. The reason is in the field I get attacked frequently by cockatrices and chimerans, and risk breaking it before I can unequip it. I also carry my cutlass so I can kill any low level monsters that attack me while I'm shooting. I'm not sure how useful the crossbow is as I don't use it.

 

PK arrows/bolts should be required at all times, except for 120+ invance blue dragon as it has the point defense as mentioned.

 

Gate guards: The gatekeeper risks being moved from their spot if they get attacked and make a kill, thus allowing anything else nearby to enter the fort. Therefore we try to leave 1 or 2 people to guard them and kill/hold anything that gets near. It is fairest to rotate those people so the same people aren't just standing at the gate. When we have JRats his tank rabbits can hold anything long enough for a ranger to kill it. When fighters go out and clear the town it can take them some time to get back to help the gate. We can sweep the whole gate area and think it's clear, and next thing you know 2 nasps or trices are attacking.

 

Those are my thoughts for now.

[beasley1]

In responding to Radu’s request of discussing the issue that the players are complaining about, there are a number of issues.

1. The point of what is help. Help is coming and participating. How one player can help and what another believes is help is tough. When you are a lower level player in any group the mobs turn to you. I don’t expect higher level players to undress to keep the mob on them. That could cause them to die. On the other hand, as a lower level player they can’t stay on the mob as long without running out of mana or dying. As a player who started in the low levels of instance I had to learn when to join and to use dissring to get out before I died or was totally out of mana. To be honest typing a lot causes more players to die. So seeing all this announcing before you restock or run can get you killed. Instead of always yelling at players to attack when it is clear that the mobs are over there head (current stats) direct them into helping. Whether that is to engage a mob coming up even for a short period to re-direct the AI or actually killing something. Sometimes, if they turn a second mob for short period this will help a tank regain some mana. But as a lower level player if you run your mana to zero, it can be scare staying in the invance. I use to dis and tele out walk right back in. This can get you out of scare situation and you are not gone that long and you can regain mana. Personal I don’t believe you will ever get everyone to agree what help is. Maybe should ask what is not help is the better question. That’s easier. More than 4 peeps sitting at the gate. Yes you need more than just a gate keeper. Normally you need 2 others scouting the area due to the limited view of the gate keeper. From the answers of the players posting they have never been a gate keeper. You can’t see well enough to inform others to get back in time. So massive players at gate is wrong but a few on patrol works.
   

1. What is proper gear? Telling other players what they have to purchase in order to have the same fun as those who are clearly alts and know how to earn a ton of gc or purchase is not even fair. Lower level players are working to create their chars. They don’t and can’t afford rosto’s at the current price. I do think they should bring the best gear they can afford. They will learn that to be able to kill and get gc from mobs they need to increase armor. But we all know that lower level they die and lose stuff. They get bag jumped sometimes is returned, other times is not. If I was low level who couldn’t afford rosto, augs and iron sword. Next level they will increase because they like playing and killing the mobs not spending their time walking from hell. Pk arrows/bolts are a must. Unless you are good enough to be switching all the time. The idea that trainers are ok for point defense is crazy. The first 100 shots don’t remove all the point defense. Maybe shooting hawks and white tigers is ok with training but believe that having trainers in leads to players trying to cheat. Pk’ers is a must.
   

[groomsh]

edit: btw should add if you help more/kill more you get more drops and chances for rare drops, so you get rewarded more then someone who kills less anyway.

+1. And especially the last sentence should imho silence all those who whine about someone supposedly or actually being afk. Active melee people get their reward not only in XP but also in gc. Active mages and rangers might get a share, but also get their additional XP by actually using their skill.

Heh so i just stop doing invances as a tank - as i said i burn quite lot of HEs/SRs/eva pots and VERY rarely get anything.

Applying your logic i should stop tanking and instead just do most damage i can so i get the drops and "get rewarded more then someone who kills less" ?

That said, i don't mind tanking and burning stuff, but then when i see people in augs standing around and only one fighter attacking the monster, why should i bother ?

Problem with augs is that the lower your armor, the higher chance you'll get attacked by the monster when you join the fight.

[extrapolation]

How many problems would be solved by putting a storage NPC in the fort, making the map no-return (create some rings of iscarlith fort for dis-tele?), and hard coding a map-boot for 1 minute of inactivity?

[Viperwitch]

lol? WoW has no such things, i think what you mean is raids, which are organized by your guild. if you don't get invited it's a social thing, and mods don't interfere.

 

which is exactly what this situation is, a social issue between people begging developers to direct everyone like (P/M)uppets.

should remain a social issue between people, if people can't work together they don't deserve the exp period. let them figure it out among themselves.

 

to what extremes are we gonna go to ensure everyone does and brings the same to invances? if a majority has 20 bought PP's are we gonna set a requirement of atleast having 15 bought PP's to enter invance? after all PP buyers contribute more.

I don't play WoW so I can't tell you exactly. I know sister whines dayli about something where GM is preventing her to go. That is all I know

[TelestoX]

i dont see why ppl complain so much about others...i did not see it much myself in 80-100, maybe its just a think of 100+...let everybody do invance their own way...maybe give some helping advise in a nice way.

[Elke]

Heh so i just stop doing invances as a tank - as i said i burn quite lot of HEs/SRs/eva pots and VERY rarely get anything.

Applying your logic i should stop tanking and instead just do most damage i can so i get the drops and "get rewarded more then someone who kills less" ?

That said, i don't mind tanking and burning stuff, but then when i see people in augs standing around and only one fighter attacking the monster, why should i bother ?

Problem with augs is that the lower your armor, the higher chance you'll get attacked by the monster when you join the fight.

No, you shouldn't stop doing that. But I think all these automated boot procedures discussed here are no solution.

Besides that point I personally vote quite for a share for tanks and rangers. But that's nothing which can have a fair and automatic solution either. My impression is really that people here try to cure something which actually needs no cure but an occasional moderator. And you'll need the occasional moderator no matter what mechanism you emply. If moderation tools need improvement, then do that. But don't complicate the game and rules so that an occasional invancer will stand no chance anymore to both know and fulfill them

[Aislinn]

We aren't complicating them. We're trying to clarify them. They already exist, but everyone is interpreting them differently. Even the "occasional invancer" needs to get a straight answer when he asks what they are.

[Faxie]

i dont see why ppl complain so much about others...i did not see it much myself in 80-100, maybe its just a think of 100+...let everybody do invance their own way...maybe give some helping advise in a nice way.

I agree 100% with you. I am in 100-120 and having great fun. I never notice any afk-ers and I don't really care.

[Aislinn]

Please stick to the original questions posed in the thread. This is NOT a thread for suggestions about coding. It is a simple "What constitutes help?" and "What constitutes acceptable armor for each level?" discussion. Full stop.

[Viperwitch]

How many problems would be solved by putting a storage NPC in the fort, making the map no-return (create some rings of iscarlith fort for dis-tele?), and hard coding a map-boot for 1 minute of inactivity?

Ok sorry Aislinn i got carryed away with my last post as I usually do But I just try to be as exact as possible this is my nature can't help that.

I try to do my quote shorter.

Storage at fort good idea

Rings to send you back ontoinvance map instead of normal map be tought to do

No return map bad idea unless it be done like instance to respawn at fort

Boot after 1 minute not a good idea as you can be afk for more then a minute because you have to or due to things outside of your control.

[Viperwitch]

Ok what I wanted to say yesterday and someone said about bought PPs today.

If player is effective in arugs or iron plate let them. If she/he has maxed instinct vitality etc and can fight in arugs why not?

I see people bashing mcw in arugs or even naked trying to break stuff for quest if he is 1-man-army as long as he helps he can go fight in anything even his underpants

 

I do not have anything to say about weapons I am afraid

As many said said already as long as player is giving a good help it shouldn't matter what she.he brings. Each fights with their own inique set.

I prefere radio rapier and I never use fire arrows hence my damage to a naspaliu for example is 15-20HP only compared to up-to 80HP as some people make using thermal serp with fire or ice arrow. I do not use magic arrows for 2 reasons First is that due to reasoning 4 only I can't hit them at all even on pots

Secondly is that I get larger mirrors and if I have to tank it as well that amounts to too high damage I can't restore in fast enought

I am mixer build not really good as tank or as fighter Good to produce loads of items fast.

But I like invances very much and this goes for instance too so I am doing my best as usually. In certain situations it isn't enought as my atributes set me a limit so I retreat.

[littlestar]

For 120+ steel set is more than enough, i mean, steel cuisses armor 5-8 (avg 6.5) ice cuisses 7 armor, hardly any difference anyway against mobs. Imho setting required gear is just the wrong way to go, if someone helps they help no matter what gear they use. What is actually helping is the only question needed.

 

What is helping; let ppl start their own invances and ppl will go with ppl they find helpful and at times that fit their rl, sorted. If they go with too few ppl and lose, finally who said that invances always should be won? With the reward from it it should be lost at least 1/2 of the time, winning means nothing if you never lose.

Edited September 14, 2012 by littlestar

[Infamous]

edit: btw should add if you help more/kill more you get more drops and chances for rare drops, so you get rewarded more then someone who kills less anyway.

+1. And especially the last sentence should imho silence all those who whine about someone supposedly or actually being afk. Active melee people get their reward not only in XP but also in gc. Active mages and rangers might get a share, but also get their additional XP by actually using their skill.

Heh so i just stop doing invances as a tank - as i said i burn quite lot of HEs/SRs/eva pots and VERY rarely get anything.

Applying your logic i should stop tanking and instead just do most damage i can so i get the drops and "get rewarded more then someone who kills less" ?

That said, i don't mind tanking and burning stuff, but then when i see people in augs standing around and only one fighter attacking the monster, why should i bother ?

Problem with augs is that the lower your armor, the higher chance you'll get attacked by the monster when you join the fight.

 

well don't bother then. the way i see it invance is just an invasion around your levels with alot of exp at the end, yet with a regular invasion i don't see anyone complaining about people not helping. even if there is a reward like sun tzu or something by radu.

You go in, kill stuff and get drops, sometimes rares and the extra exp from killing things. and on top of that a big exp bonus for completing it.

I don't think the dev team should be guaranteeing us a win by directing people what to do and what to wear, after all an occasional loss no matter why (people not wearing good armor, not helping enough or gatekeeper dies) is what keeps it interesting and encourages you to try harder next time.

 

might aswell start setting waypoints for people to follow, like the tutorial quest to go to tavern. and put a red arrow on mobs you need to kill to ensure everyone does what everyone else does and get a guaranteed way to get your 200k a/d exp bonus.

or just skip all that and give everyone in range who is online the exp bonus the moment invance is announced.

[Cyrano]

I think that invances should be a fun team event for which there should be clear cut rules that are not so restrictive that they make players either unable or unwilling to take part. With that in mind I think there should be no minimum equipment requirement for the 40-60 (perhaps also 60-80) and a minimum requirement for an iron set (+RDHLM or COL) or Mage Set for all the others. I think rangers should wear the minimum armour & use only pk arrows or bolts (or better) but I don't think they should be required to take an elven or recurve bow for a walk outside the fort (on the walls perhaps but these break very easily in my experience).

 

I think the other rules should be simple too; players should be actively participating, no harvesting, no sitting about afk (if you're sitting & not the gatekeeper you should be booted from the invance), a maximum of 2 minute breaks from combat to overcome cooldowns & mana depletions or to restock (you can easily have item list created for quick resupply).

 

Participating in my opinion could be any of the following; gatekeeping, scouting, healing, melee combat, ranged combat, summoning & casting offensive spells. The gatekeeper should be picked by the team and the team should also decide whether they need up to 2 scouts to assist at the gate area (the scouts should be named players and should be actively to protecting the gate & assisting the team as much as is possible without compromising the gate defence).

 

Some other thoughts I had (some of which have been mentioned in earlier posts) abandon minimum equipment requirements altogether, have a storage bot inside the fort, make invances automated in the same way as instances with a cooldown period but with larger team sizes (ie if it drops below the minimum number of players due to afk, lags etc.. the invance ends), provide less xp reward for victory, a communal pool of xp & gc (perhaps for achieving objectives during invance) which is shared equally at end of invance, dying in invance could be same as instance, die with rosto you reappear in fort or without one your invance is over.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Cyrano

[SenZon]

just make it so you still need good gear, but introduce a fun support class through the magic system

increased remote heal based on lvl+rationality, add new remote shield spells that absorb damage or transfer xx% damage to yourself

that sort of stuff, then evryone, whatever there gear is can contribute

I have been waiting for this forever. Would love to see more spells for mages.

 

Remove the whole gate keep thing, it is lame and makes people sit doing nothing for the whole invance

why not add a gate with a life bar that the mobs must destroy to make you lose, like in those tower defense games.

 

Best idea here so far - by far.

 

^^