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When a quest is added to the game there is always a big hunt to find the NPC that has it and then do the quest as fast as you can to be the first that finished it, sure all the quests will end up somewhere on a guild board or a webpage with a go through but that can't be avoided really so making those NPCs that has quests being shown with a mark or something is not a good idea imo (they will be known pretty fast after it is found anyways and so will the places that has the info for it too).

 

 

A big hunt you say? new quests announced on forums and channel 6, lets say about 120 people are on there.

now most of those people are too busy on a spawn, or harvesting/mixing, what remains thinks "I'll wait till someone finds it" and then the remaining few go hunt.

i've yet to hear someone in guild (or friends in pm) say: "hey, i'm going to look for this quest"

 

anyway the facts are there, radu wants more people doing quests, he hates it when they go to said websites to get all their info.

most simple, logical solution would be just having a marker, quest text seperated.

it's what will potentially get/keep new players and it won't reduce quality but in fact improve it.

and besides some of the new players may be customers paying for server upkeep so we can play the game for free, so why not cater to their needs? not like something so simple is the end of the world.

 

right now the only thing you do is: google.com -> search eternal lands quest" -> Choris EL site -> daily or normal? -> work down the list for your free exp.

with said markers i could skip all those steps, when i happen to be mapwalking stumble upon a quest and be happy and see what it got for me

 

^ your point of making quests difficult to find on purpose, that its more fun this way is invalid. the whole site being there and used so much proves it.

 

be the type of player that finds quests, thus gets them. Or be the type of player who doesn't find quests, just spend all your time at closest-to-sto harvs and best training spots and grind-grind-grind
that's exactly what we want in EL right? i mean, Radu adds quests so people can sit at closest to sto harvs and the best training spots right? lol

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When a quest is added to the game there is always a big hunt to find the NPC that has it and then do the quest as fast as you can to be the first that finished it, sure all the quests will end up somewhere on a guild board or a webpage with a go through but that can't be avoided really so making those NPCs that has quests being shown with a mark or something is not a good idea imo (they will be known pretty fast after it is found anyways and so will the places that has the info for it too).

 

snip**

i've yet to hear someone in guild (or friends in pm) say: "hey, i'm going to look for this quest"

snip**

 

This all depends on what guild you are in and who you are friends with. Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. People tend to group with other people who play the same way as they do. You and your buds play one way but there are tons of other ways to play that you don't get exposed to because you stick with the people who play the way you do. (And all those 'yous' in there don't actually mean YOU you. I'm using it in the universal way here.)

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When a quest is added to the game there is always a big hunt to find the NPC that has it and then do the quest as fast as you can to be the first that finished it, sure all the quests will end up somewhere on a guild board or a webpage with a go through but that can't be avoided really so making those NPCs that has quests being shown with a mark or something is not a good idea imo (they will be known pretty fast after it is found anyways and so will the places that has the info for it too).

 

 

A big hunt you say? new quests announced on forums and channel 6, lets say about 120 people are on there.

now most of those people are too busy on a spawn, or harvesting/mixing, what remains thinks "I'll wait till someone finds it" and then the remaining few go hunt.

i've yet to hear someone in guild (or friends in pm) say: "hey, i'm going to look for this quest"

 

Yeah, I know ppl that, as soon as they hear that there are a new quest out there, go off to "hunt" for it and also have been the first ones to find/finish it, just because the ppl you travell with aint interested about finding quests and when they want to do one they do the google search you named here (no idea why they would google it though since i guess those you are talking about know the sites already..).

In a way those sites are the inofficial NPC marks you want, want to do a quest the lazy easy way without any hassle check those sites, if not go out and explore and talk to the NPCs and find em yourself.

 

Just because You never heard any of your friends/guildies say that they are going to look for a quest doesn't mean that no one is doing it..

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the whole site being there and used so much proves it.

 

How do you know it is "used so much"? The funny thing is, we can always tell when somebody does use it because it doesn't work and hasn't for ages. Once in a while somebody is led there and without fail, we get a help request saying their quests are messed up. And guess what. It's not their quest that is messed up but they used the cheat site that is missing something.

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that's funny, i went there and did a couple quests one after the other with no problems. depends on the people i guess, some can read others can't. which is how i came up with Radu disliking the use of said sites. an NPC mentions hoping you didn't come there with the leopard/white rabbit furs already.

 

anyway, does a questmaker spend his time writing a quest just for a few hardcore hide-and-seek players? or for everyone to enjoy the quest they spend so much time on. not just the questmaker, but Radu too, he puts it in game. he might aswell do something else if 10% is looking and the other 90% waits for a walkthrough.

 

don't get me wrong, i'm all for a difficult quests, looking for difficult objectives and such, but it's more fun if you don't have to go looking for a needle in a haystack just to find the NPC that gives it.

 

know what i mean? Difficult quests/objectives yes, nearly impossible to find quest-starter, no.

Edited by Infamous

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if someone is going step by step thru the website guide, they aren't enjoying your work at all, they are clicking past all of it. I am an NPC/quest writer.

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...

When it comes to the Newbie Quests like the tutorial it might be a good idea to perhaps have a server map mark on it (like the flowers on IP has in the quest) telling those who are new to the game that there is a quest for new commers to do there and a line in there can tell them that there are more quests to be found out there but they won't have a mark so they will have to search for them so (or something).

I have no idea how many New players that enters EL that starts the tutorial quest but perhaps having a marker along with the other information will add to that amount i donno.

 

Sounds like an excellent suggestion. I hope that adding a server side marker to show up just for the tutorial when a new char is created would be relatively simple. As pointed out, there are already several other mechanisms in place to point people to the tutorial.

 

One thing you cannot hand people on a platter is reading skills however. I have noted lots of people following some web-guide to quests that simply don't bother to actually read what the NPC says and very often they end up doing a help_me because they get stuck due to not following the NPC conversation to the point that it triggers the next step in the quest.

 

There is also a pretty comprehensive (probably even complete) list of quests on the wiki, though any walk-through like information is only available for people with a wiki-forum account. If new players bother to stay in ch 1, they will most likely learn about the wiki fairly soon. More advanced players really don't need to get things handed on a platter, they are supposed to be able to ask friends/guildies for such information.

 

Tutorial quest marker: +1

Other quest markers: no

 

Just my two cents.

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well with the websites you do hand everything on a silver platter, to newbies and advanced players alike, and the only reason is cause it's impossible finding a quest. so people go there, find out where it starts and follow the steps while your there anyway.

 

so from what i understand you guy's think quest sites are bad? and markers are bad? marker fights off the sites a bit though, so imo best decision would be going with the lesser of two evils.

if atleast people found out easy which NPC has a quest they would more likely go through the quest text and read it, follow the steps from there.

since you are not forced to go to such sites just to find it, you are not already looking at the whole step-by-step walkthrough which makes it more tempting to follow it.

 

anyway maybe another idea? instead of a marker, would it be possible programming wise to have an NPC speak out in local when you pass by if he needs help/gives a quest?

or if you use the eye button at an NPC with a quest it would say "you see a young/old gnome guy, he looks troubled. might want to talk to him?"

just an example.

would still be fun for hide-and-seekers to go looking for new NPC's, and easier for people who rather cut to the chase and check for quests. win-win right?

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well with the websites you do hand everything on a silver platter, to newbies and advanced players alike, and the only reason is cause it's impossible finding a quest. so people go there, find out where it starts and follow the steps while your there anyway.

Lol, really impossible, r is it just the lack of patience and will to explore ?

I bet most of the time (like 95%) it's just that people are too lazy to explore and only want the reward, not to actually play the quest.

 

Btw. from the definition of quest:

quest [kwɛst]

n

1.
the act or an instance of looking for or seeking; search
a quest for diamonds

2.
(Historical Terms) (in medieval romance) an expedition by a knight or company of knights to accomplish some prescribed task, such as finding the Holy Grail

3.
the object of a search; goal or target
my quest is the treasure of the king

4.
Rare
a collection of alms

vb (mainly intr)

1.
(foll by for or after)
to go in search (of)

2.
(Historical Terms) to go on a quest

3.
(Individual Sports & Recreations / Hunting) (of gun dogs or hounds)

a.
to search for game

b.
to bay when in pursuit of game

4.
Rare
to collect alms

5.
(also tr)
Archaic
to go in search of (a thing); seek or pursue

[from Old French
queste,
from Latin
quaesita
sought, from
quaerere
to seek]
Edited by groomsh

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I think that from the start of this thread people have been confusing finding the quest with playing and enjoying the quest.

 

These things are not mutually exclusive.

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I think that from the start of this thread people have been confusing finding the quest with playing and enjoying the quest.

Well, if you "play" the quest using a walkthrough then it's not playing and enjoying the quest, it's going for the reward, nothing more and nothing less.

Finding the quest is part of the quest itself - the effort you spend on finding a quest (even if you stumble on it by accident), should be rewarded by playing it.

Also, quests should promote exploration. Lot of players don't explore, they just ask what the best place for certain tasks is.

This can be clearly seen in some contests like hide and seek, which are mostly won by rather small set of explorers players.

Or consider current situation with finding pears/treasures - people without map knowledge will never be able to compete untill they explore and learn the maps and it's secrets.

 

Edit: edited punctuations to make it more readable :D

Edited by groomsh

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You listed a set of problems that exist with the current system, which would indicate that it does not result in what you would hope. (encouraging exploration etc.)

 

Like I said before, maybe make some sort of toggle-able notification that an NPC has a quest. There does not need to be anything more; after that people can fumble and explore their way through the quest using what hints and clues have been given to them in the dialogue.

 

Why not have an NPC who gives you hints to find a few quest NPCs? Vague directions or descriptions of the quest NPC's locale which you then must wander off and find on your own. Completely optional and by no means tied to all quests.

 

It is much more enjoyable (for me and therefore others) to work my way through a quest once I have been given clues, rather than to wander aimlessly around clicking on every piece dialogue for every NPC to find a quest. This is especially true for quests that give obvious advantages, such as the wine and leather quests, as opposed to quests which only give exp.

 

If this results in 10 new players deciding to play and stay that is a good thing, no?

 

 

 

 

Also for those who are interested: http://imgur.com/r/historyporn

Edited by Zaer

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Heh, well i guess that if you learn about RP aspect of the game (eg. history, legends, tales etc which all are on the forums and also in game in one or other form), you'll have enough hints which parts of eternal lands to explore.

Thing is that players don't bother with reading. It's impossible to implement a system which pleases people who aren't bothered to read what an NPC tries to tell them. The only solution would be to display them something like this:

1. go to White Stone to coords [xxx,yyy] (use map view to select the right coordinates)

2. enter house at this position (if you don't see it, try turning around with arrow keys)

3. talk to NPC with name "QuestNPC" (use "talk" icon on the NPC)

4. select dialog option "3"

etc ...

 

Most (if not all) quests are designed in a logical way, where it's not a random position and random text... As said before, NPCs are not there just for looks. If a player cannot be bothered by reading what the NPC tells, then why

is (s)he even bothering with quests. Lot of important hints and clues are told in the other dialogs, but i think that is just common sense.

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I think that from the start of this thread people have been confusing finding the quest with playing and enjoying the quest.

 

These things are not mutually exclusive.

No...but I think the conflict here is we have 2 groups of people: those who only want the reward and would be just as happy if you could skip the quest entirely and could just click "gimme the moola/exp/items" option, and those who want to actually use their brain and putter around trying to piece the "puzzle" together. That said, if the goal was to cater to the first group, nobody would bother putting the time and effort in to write and implement the quests.

 

So to me, it sounds like we have a misunderstanding about what a quest is supposed to be. And by definition, part of the quest is finding where it starts! (It's not like it's rocket science, most npc's these days are related to some quest or another.)

 

@zaer: What is the point of that link? Can you please remove it?

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You do not find it interesting? I can move it to the offtopic section but didn't really want to make a whole new topic for it.

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I think that from the start of this thread people have been confusing finding the quest with playing and enjoying the quest.

Lot of players don't explore, they just ask what the best place for certain tasks is.

This can be clearly seen in some contests like hide and seek, which are mostly won by rather small set of explorers players.

 

 

point was to cater to both groups Aislinn, and newbies coming to the game expecting some sort of quest indication like everywhere else. instead of wandering around an hour or two thinking "Wtf it has no quests!?!?" and then log off. just because a select few are dead set on making the game less attractive for most people. if it helps people look for quests on their own, with no help from 3rd party sites, and increases the amount of new players doing quests figuring out how to do things.. what harm is there in it? in the end it will be better for EL if more new players stay because they can find/start quests on their own.

if you make finding quests too hard, voila, people go look for walkthroughs. there goes your arguement to make it more fun by having to look for the start.

 

example: If you buy a puzzle, do they hide the pieces for you? ofc not, they give you everything you need to finish it. the fun is in piecing it together, not in scouring towns/cities/countryside to find a piece.

same goes for a quest. and quite frankly it's widely accepted in any kind of game that quests start when they are handed to you, else you have no clue what you are looking for.

quest to find a quest.. questception O.o

 

Edit: Quoted Groomsh there because it points out even people against such marker ideas say just a few people look for them. so even the opposite side accepts that this whole hide and seek thing to make it more "fun" to find a quest backfires on itself.

really? you guy's want to screw over most of the community, all new players and the questwriters just for a few players? teh fuck is wrong with you people?

Edited by Infamous

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Ah. Well, just having the second option would provide some means of knowing if it's found, so that would be a definite improvement!

 

http://www.eternal-l...06

 

yes! because things that you have to look for, which yield high amounts of GC when found. and are found within a few minutes every time (treasures and pears) are priority, and worthwhile to make even easier to find!

while things that aren't being found, or not even bothered with, and keeps newbs away from game is not important.

 

Edit: sorry for double post ^^

Edited by Infamous

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anyway maybe another idea? instead of a marker, would it be possible programming wise to have an NPC speak out in local when you pass by if he needs help/gives a quest?

or if you use the eye button at an NPC with a quest it would say "you see a young/old gnome guy, he looks troubled. might want to talk to him?"

just an example.

would still be fun for hide-and-seekers to go looking for new NPC's, and easier for people who rather cut to the chase and check for quests. win-win right?

 

I don't like the "speaking NPCs" idea because that would mean that just because you happen to walk by "that" NPC it would tell you that it has a quest even though you are not out to find it.

The Eye function on the other hand sounds interesting, sure ppl would start eye:ing the NPCs just to check if they have a quest or not but at the same time they do have to walk up to it to do so and be more "active" in their actions.

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@infamous: Quit overdramatizing like you always do. The opinions are not given to "make the game less attractive for most people" or to "screw over most of the community". Stop speaking for everyone else. I also have yet to see you accurately quote me or accurately analyze my motives, even after having them spelled out for you. Anywhere, any time.

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what are you talking about? it is still not clear to you most of the game does not like searching for NPC's that give quests?

proof is there, like Groomsh said, few people do look, the others get a walkthrough. newbies and reviewers cant find any and like Radu said the numbers are low and he wants to get them up. what other conclusions can you make then screwing most people the way it is now? besides, treasure finding can be made easier, hyperbags with alot of high value items in it which you can find over and over again, but a one time quest oh noes, end of the world if you find the npc easier.

 

i don't know if you realize this, i don't have to accuratly quote you or analyze your motives. you do not speak for everyone either, and your motives benefit a select few. Entropy gave the quest statistics, doesn't like walkthroughs, i doubt quest writers like people doing things following a guide either.

Difference is, i base this suggestion on the stats Radu gave, and the way people do quests/what they want from them. You on the other hand seem to think it's all about you and i have to convince/analyze you to change things? sounds kinda wrong imo.

think outside of the box, think about what is best for EL, what would benefit EL in the long run. making things better for the majority is and always will be better then preferring a couple players.

 

and just for the record take your own advice and play nice, don't try and incite flames. If you want to troll i can happily direct you to the unofficial forums.

You are a mod after all, give the right example.

Edited by Infamous

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proof is there, like Groomsh said, few people do look, the others get a walkthrough. newbies and reviewers cant find any and like Radu said the numbers are low and he wants to get them up.

Actually other than the tutorial quest, most newbies don't look for a sign that says "Next go to person X in place Y and do this quest".

What initially keeps newbies in the game is knowledge on how to set targets and start leveling up their chars. That means questions like "what do I do next?" "what skills should I follow?" "where can I find something to kill?" "where can I find people to talk to?" "where can I get better armor?", etc..

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Enough! Again, I ask anyone who inserted personal comments to remove them or their posting rights will be removed. And pointless bandwidth hogging images.

 

 

you may take your posting permission anytime now :<

 

Anyways I like EL, it's a nice morpg to spend some time on passively, but maybe, just maybe it's better to listen to players from time to time?

http://www.google.co...date=all&sort=1

It's sad to see things like that, EL deserves better statistics, too bad few aren't willing to budge to make improvements for the majority.

 

(if it's inappropriate somehow, disheartening or upsets the big chief feel free to erase the link. it's solely used to prove a point saying if you aren't willing to work with players, how can you expect to get new ones.)

 

proof is there, like Groomsh said, few people do look, the others get a walkthrough. newbies and reviewers cant find any and like Radu said the numbers are low and he wants to get them up.

Actually other than the tutorial quest, most newbies don't look for a sign that says "Next go to person X in place Y and do this quest".

What initially keeps newbies in the game is knowledge on how to set targets and start leveling up their chars. That means questions like "what do I do next?" "what skills should I follow?" "where can I find something to kill?" "where can I find people to talk to?" "where can I get better armor?", etc..

 

if they can find/finish the tutorial they learn quite a few things, and there are other quests around that teach newer players a thing or 2 about what to do next. (for example: while they are in NC doing the Past quest they could pick up the summoning quest, but sadly it's easy to skip without marks. i'm sure there are other NPC's being skipped aswell during the newbie stage)

which is why we should shed some light on things to do next instead of keeping people in the dark wandering around aimlessly.

Edited by Infamous

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I find this topic very interesting as I recently had a RL friend ask me to show him "that mmo you are always playing". As a note on him he has never really played an MMO before and most of the time we play FPS games together on xbox live.

 

So we fired up a chat line and i started walking him through some basics and then told him to do the tutorial quest to get a feel for the game. after a while he had to leave and hasn't been back on since but through the convo with him i had while he was learning to play i will suggest the following:

 

There are many different types of players and your never going to make a game that satisfies everyone. But you can take steps to include more players that do have differing play styles:

 

A) perhaps an option should be given to a first time player when they create their account as to if they do or don't want a marker telling them where they might find a quest. They could be informed that not all quests will be marked if they select this option but ALL basic quests and some minor supplementary quests would be.

 

b ) (perhaps off topic) a fighter based player doesn't want to harvest they want action. While yes it may be a skill in EL they will want to learn eventually perhaps there should be two separate quests in the tutorial stage: mixer and fighter. I know that EL is in theory a game that has no specific class you have to choose upon starting but offering a person starting the option to either do one or the other or both if they like would be nice. To quote my friend after about the 4th flower he had to harvest: "WTF i know i have to learn the basics but how many flowers do i have to find? when do i start killing stuff?" When he got to start killing rats he was fine, it was fun and interesting again.

 

So can you make a game to please everyone no, can you take steps to include more people? yes. But it's up to the developers and the community to make that happen or decide not to. I find a lot of fault in the idea of "we didn't have markers when i started so we don't need them for others" or "i don't play that way so others shouldn't either" Like others have posted if they want they can get some info on the quests from various websites or if they make it as far as joining a guild they find info there. If we follow that reasoning out to the final end i would have to say things like:"omg vials shouldn't be used for crafting lvling because they weren't there when i started and neither was thread!!@!@!" and the game would never grow or change it would be stagnate forever. All most people need is a place to start. Show them the NPC and they will do the rest they will explore they won't go looking on the web first thing. Most people want to figure things out but if they don't even know where to start how can they have the chance?

 

edit: my point b showed up as a smile lol

Edited by Elf_Ninja

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Just a side note. When new players start the game, they get alerted to the fact that the tutorial NPC has a tutorial quest by:

- starting out right next to it

- the name (duh)

- a pop-up

- #hints

- they are automatically in ch 1 and there people often talk about this too.

 

Once people start the newbie tutorial and show some patience and reading skills, they will get pointed to several of the low level quests.

 

While not everyone will want to harvest for a living, it is a necessary skill when starting off. Once you get the hang of the markers and can find coordinates, it is a breeze. I think forcing people to choose between fighter and harvester/mixer does injustice to the nature of the game.

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