God Please save PK

[busterblader]

ok bring back merc to kf

keep it no drops then more people will come and more to protect them pk is back simple:)

[_iNvoKeD]

And Groomsh; no I dont know a manu-er who makes it JUST for the specials. Some like to have a chance once in a while if they wanna spend a few RL $ on bindings for the EXP/chance at something like Life drain shield you know? Look how many orange spammy weps are actually used in PK. I know 3-4 people who have things like OSOMN and actually use it occasionally. Even think about not removing them but slightly nerfing the mana nulling part.. from 150 mana to idk 75? 80? (but to all orange spammy weps like that)

Edited April 9, 2012 by _iNvoKeD

[evilmangopie]

Remember mate, removing weapons/armors like OSOMN is not overpowered. They're rare for a reason - if you remove these from the game then you're basically asking for Manu-ers to stop making shit for no profit still. Who makes OS, JS etc at the rate bindings are going for?

 

Agree with mage robe, but not brod, leaves only GSM in-game... As it is, I rarely see anyone using BoD, AoF, etc. So why remove the BroD?

 

Agree with greater choice of 'great swords', which to me seem like training swords either bronze or therm in pk or its gtfo. Radioactive OS? Please... LOL.

 

Not sure what to make of PK Bonus from Steel/Tit, how would that reflect PvE Aswell?

 

Dragon armors are fine the way they are personally (armor bonus wise), especially if you're introducing better/more Great Swords like Rad Rapier (and hopefully a bit cheaper than 160k for Rapier, which seems fairly easy to break)... Those great swords being introduced could counteract each type of drag for instance, then dragon armors (like others) need some kind of negativity to it. Like Icy gives -heat protection (from thermy), Red gives -cold protection etc etc.

 

 

CL/ a/d level arena is a great idea, i'd spend some time there to practice...

 

and as for Hally being too strong, still if Luci were to come into PK tomorrow with Hally with say 80+ damage on it, the fuck i'd have no chance

 

Cba to split the quote up the parts. OsoMN couldn't be much more OP, removing 150 mana in one hit? You seriously think that's fair? Price barely matters in the age of gc sellers etc.

 

When I said remove brod I meant remove GSM as well. It isn't at all similair to axe of freezing etc. The brod has the capability to destroy months of hard work in one hit, that's why it's bad. People who may PK fear it, and don't PK because of it. I've never ever seen a MMO with a weapon like the BroD, for very good reasons

 

His char is super strong by abusing a stupid system, of course he should fuck you over. Using a stronger halberd will still do so much less than a bronze sword+FA in the current system...

 

And what's funny about a radioactive OS?

Edited April 9, 2012 by evilmangopie

[_iNvoKeD]

 

Cba to split the quote up the parts. OsoMN couldn't be much more OP, removing 150 mana in one hit? You seriously think that's fair? Price barely matters in the age of gc sellers etc.

 

When I said remove brod I meant remove GSM as well. It isn't at all similair to axe of freezing etc. The brod has the capability to destroy months of hard work in one hit, that's why it's bad. People who may PK fear it, and don't PK because of it. I've never ever seen a MMO with a weapon like the BroD, for very good reasons

 

His char is super strong by abusing a stupid system, of course he should fuck you over. Using a stronger halberd will still do so much less than a bronze sword+FA in the current system...

 

And what's funny about a radioactive OS?

 

 

Thats why I made the post saying to nerf the effect, but still having the effect available.

 

I guess so, but the CotU affect on the mage robe was basically for BroD/Scythe's BoD effect. - Links back to removing CoTU affect from mage-pants.

 

This isn't any MMO as you probs know yourself, I think MOST of it was for shits and giggles when the game was just a game...

 

And fair enough @ Luci fucking me over.

 

Nothing is funny, it's more of a 'Hurry up and gimme a radioactive OS'

Edited April 9, 2012 by _iNvoKeD

[Caliphear]

Ok i give. I dont think the purpose of this was to completely rewrite el. Nerfing everything, changing everything isnt the answer and will never be taken serious by radu.

 

On my final note: yes buster i say bring mercury back to kf too.

[The_Piper]

Why don't i do PK?

 

When KF entered the game, i bought an iron battle hammer for at least 70.000 gc, went to KF, met NeXt, who had better stats and better gear than i had, lost, and 70.000 gc went down the edge.

 

That was not fun and not really worth 70.000 gc.

 

Okay, now we have more spells, more items with more magical effects and such, but it is still the same:

 

The one, who has more time/money to spend to get better levels/gear, wins.

 

Not talking about char buyers anyways.. but you got the message, i think.

 

Even if you say, you can block mana drain/harm with magical immunity, you can break magical immunity with magical immunity removal wards, so it's still the same.

 

The one with the best gear/levels wins, no matter of strategy or tactics, since there is only one: Be the best.

 

And to be the best, you have to risk a lot of money nowadays, if you go on a PK drop map.

 

Or, you go on a no drop map, risk to break your expensive stuff (BroD comes up in mind) for NOTHING.

 

So, my suggestion is:

 

Have different arenas, which are drop maps, so you get at least a cheap reward:

 

Naked arena - just naked fight is possible there, no magic, no summoning, no armor, no weapon. Maybe something like caltrops, a spell like noxious cloud could be possible there, representing throwing a handful of sand in your enemy's eyes or throwing a stone at his head. Just like bare fist fight.

 

Leather arena - Leather armor is allowed there, some minor weapons like bone, branch, iron sword, heal and harm, shield and poison spell works there.

 

Iron arena - Iron chain mails, iron helms, iron swords, augmented pants and torso, shields up to iron shields are allowed there, magic is shield, harm, poison and heal.

 

Steel arena - Up to steel chain mails, steel shields, steel swords is allowed there, the usual magic spells, plus summoning minor creatures, up to boars

 

Walking cans arena: every type of armor or weapon is allowed, no magic, but mines and such explosives and summonings of all kinds.

 

Mages arena: All magic spells are allowed, armor and weps are restricted to iron level. No summonings, no ranging, no bombs.

 

Ranging arena: Leather armor is allowed plus only ranging weapons plus iron sword or bone/branch. There should be some buildings/walls, where you can hide behind.

 

And finally:

 

Suck off and die arena: Use everything there you want, but dont complain about losses then!

 

Further it would be nice, if you get at least a reward, when you kill a player, lets say, like 50gc per kill or such. So you get even something on no drop maps.

 

Yes, i don't suggest to remove the no drop PK maps from game, they should still be there.

 

Well, just my thoughts

 

Piper

[Wizzy]

Thanks for the thought piper, but this is not about your loses in pk 8 years ago, and it is not about completly re-writting the game. This is about taking a hard look at the current system and making some small changes to make it more balanced.

[The_Piper]

Thanks for the thought piper, but this is not about your loses in pk 8 years ago, and it is not about completly re-writting the game. This is about taking a hard look at the current system and making some small changes to make it more balanced.

 

I agree, that my opinion from 8 years ago doesnt really count, but it shows, why I (and others) don't do PK.

 

You lose stuff to players with better levels/gear and you have no chance to win.

 

This fact is a fact, no matter if it was 8 years ago a fact or not.

 

And you wont fix the current system with some small changes, and thats the problem at all.

 

It just doesn't work, if those guys, who have the time/money to buy/get high levels dominate the game.

 

So there must be some serious changes, to make PK attractive for others, and not being it like it is. The top guys slaugther everyone and thats it.

 

The death of the PK system.

 

Piper

[Wizzy]

Thanks for the thought piper, but this is not about your loses in pk 8 years ago, and it is not about completly re-writting the game. This is about taking a hard look at the current system and making some small changes to make it more balanced.

 

I agree, that my opinion from 8 years ago doesnt really count, but it shows, why I (and others) don't do PK.

 

You lose stuff to players with better levels/gear and you have no chance to win.

 

This fact is a fact, no matter if it was 8 years ago a fact or not.

 

And you wont fix the current system with some small changes, and thats the problem at all.

 

It just doesn't work, if those guys, who have the time/money to buy/get high levels dominate the game.

 

So there must be some serious changes, to make PK attractive for others, and not being it like it is. The top guys slaugther everyone and thats it.

 

The death of the PK system.

 

Piper

 

I disagree to some of what you say, as pk has had numerous changes over the years. There are no drop maps, there are red capes, there are dis rings, there are ogres dropping iron battle hammers.Hell,we even have rostogol stones now that are still the same price in shop as they where 5 years ago. Although levels help, they are not the be-all, end-all to a pk fight. You can win if you know when to click what and when. There is method to all the madness that can only be learned with practice. It is people behind the stats, not just numbers. However, understandably I can see why some people do not pk. And to be honest, all the changes in the world will not change these peoples minds. But personally, I think a few minor changes could make a big difference in the pk aspect of game. It is a matter of nailing these down in some coherent form to address the developer.

[Rabbitman]

Off and on for the last few months I have been enjoying learning the basics of pk, but I am by no means an expert. Anyway, I would pk more if:

 

Kf - can only attack people in your instance range or above. Including ranging, magic, summons and engineering.

 

Dpa - limit hp and mana to attribute caps of 20 (iirc, that's what dex/rea...etc are capped at), you cannot initiate combat if your filled emu is over 400 (again, capped at 20/20), and Orange spammies don't work. Possibly make diss rings not work, or if they do work give pki (0.5*kill?) for using.

 

All other pk maps no limitations.

 

I believe these suggestions would focus pk on the competition between equals rather than ubber strong people beating on us nubs. Anyway, just mho, flame away.

 

Rabbitman

Edited April 10, 2012 by Rabbitman

[Aislinn]

Thread cleanup.

Probably not even well enough but we'll see.

Any further unintelligible spam will result in deletion and posting restriction.

Opinions are welcome (backup facts even better), but repetitive ranting is not.

[Wizzy]

Ok, Before I go off for the night, lets recap this thread so far..

 

 

Inital question

 

"This thread is targeted to the few remaining pkers in game and I would just like to have a flame retardant discussion on bringing some balance back to PK."

 

This Thread is not about "omfg pk is dead" or "rangers suck" or "summoning is over-powered" or "mad bombers ruined pk"

 

I am looking for well thought out suggestions to bring more balance to pk

 

So far we have the following (edited for brevity)

 

1) Using fire arrows for extra damage with a sword is insane

 

2) RC bombs are over-powered when used while the one setting them is standing on it and just using the percise timing of dropping and detonation.

 

3) Summoners would really like to be able to summon while in combat. Though most agree that the cost of the summons is very expensive, and (for example) 8 acw at once is over powered.

 

4) Branch of destruction should be removed, it puts fear into new pkers to the point they choose to never play due to the fear it invokes.

 

5) Some of the "new" tailored clothes could have stats to work with current pk system

 

6) An important quote from this thread imo "Competitive meaning, my opponent does something, and I can respond in a meaningful way, and this carries on until one of the opponents makes a mistake(which is taken advantage of) or one of the opponents have a superior strategy of winning or greater level of skill responding to situations"

 

This quote certanily shares my thoughts in the "spirit" of this thread

 

7) Radu wants to see that we (as a community of ebul pkers) care about pk in a meaningful way. This does not mean we suggest changes that benefit ME. It means we suggest changes that will benefit all EL

 

8)Too many allies, and strong players in the same guild.

 

9)Summoning. tone down the big summons (ACW etc.), they're very overpowered. Instead, summoners get the role of cheap, but useful summons that have special attacks (that have a change to bypass MI proportional to summoning level/charm), more similair to the tank rabbit that is already implemented.

 

10)Magic removing MI spell, buffing Mag Protection spell, and making harm/md much weaker, buffing warlock capes. Equipment for mages changes. More useful spells for individuals and groups.

 

11)Re-working the special swords armors like OSOMN etc, so that they are still powerful, but not a definable win

 

12)Look at tweaking other great swords to radio-acitve or at least useful other then training or breaking for a quest.

 

 

 

This is just a short list of suggestions from the thread, of course more are welcome as long as they are constuctive in nature. Please keep the discussion going But I ask we try to focus on just a few most important points for now. Rome was not built in a day, and some of the "features" of this game where very balanced years ago, but have not changed with the way the game has evolved.

 

Thanks everyone for your ideas.

[luciferx]

Mercury will cause alot of "kill the low levels who run in to grab some" but it wont bring pk back to what it was... plus as no drop in KF when u kill a noob who has a bunch of mercury u wont even get a drop.

 

I'm all for the idea though, i like free mercury as much as the next guy

[TuDaeFadda]

Read the first 3 pages... May I say, let's try to help the topic first and argue individual posts later?

 

 

 

The greatest problem I see with EL's reward rolls (damage dealt, damage absorbed, size of restore, size of harm, XP gained per usage of skill) versus its obligations (in terms of XP, cost, time invested) is that the former are mostly arithmetic functions whereas the latter are exponential. This forces the developer to code the reward rolls as {Base+ (index*multiplier)/level} where the selection of the base is a tricky job.

 

 

It frequently results in a skill being either massively overpowered in comparison to A/D or being massively underpowered. Looking a little more deeply, the ratio of base to index may cause a skill to be biased towards low or very high levels. My submission would be to slowly try to shift to a model which calculates reward rolls (including XP gained while in combat, casting spells, manufacturing items) based on a decaying formula which is however exponential. Finding the balance will be a hell of a mathematical task, but if achieved, the OP/UP problem will get dealt with.

 

 

---EDIT: this is me talking about magnitude rolls only, not chance rolls. And yes I understand that mating an arithmetical magnitude roll with an exponential chance roll works to an extent.---

 

 

 

The second thing that prohibits an extent of skill coming into play in PK is the way movement and combat engagement work in EL. IMHO melee engagement should be a function of distance, and there should be no engagement lock as there currently exists. If movement skills could be made to come into play, placing bombs on static tiles or standing still and shooting a player dead would become nearly impossible.

 

I am a bit hazy on this, though, and it would require too big a jump in terms of how the game plays out, so I can't insist that this be considered.

 

 

 

 

 

The last thing (at least for now) concerns the time of character development in EL. To make a fully developed character, in terms of attribs, levels, equipment and perks it takes years and years. This is one factor that encourages the character market: it is so time consuming to level a character that players try taking the easy way out to find out how enjoyable the game is at the highest levels. Like piles on like till we have a relatively small number of characters which have been spammed by various owners a huge number of times, hence exacerbating the difference in gameplay satisfaction between a self-made character and a repeatedly purchased and sold one. It's a vicious cycle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Only constructive comments welcome.

Edited April 10, 2012 by TuDaeFadda

[Wizzy]

Mercury will cause alot of "kill the low levels who run in to grab some" but it wont bring pk back to what it was... plus as no drop in KF when u kill a noob who has a bunch of mercury u wont even get a drop.

 

I'm all for the idea though, i like free mercury as much as the next guy

 

Free merc is sort of beyond the scope of this thread

[Rabbitman]

If arrow effects are removed from melee, how about adding some spells that give special types of damage. Only one active at a time, damage scales with magic level/rationality. Relatively expensive to cast, can switch between them at any time by casting over the old one. I.e. opponent is wearing standard pk armour with icy torso. You cast radiation damage spell, they switch to bd armour. You cast fire damage spell, etc. It would be possible to keep having an advantage over your opponent by switching spells, but it would drain your mana. Might add some more strategy.

[Wizzy]

If arrow effects are removed from melee, how about adding some spells that give special types of damage. Only one active at a time, damage scales with magic level/rationality. Relatively expensive to cast, can switch between them at any time by casting over the old one. I.e. opponent is wearing standard pk armour with icy torso. You cast radiation damage spell, they switch to bd armour. You cast fire damage spell, etc. It would be possible to keep having an advantage over your opponent by switching spells, but it would drain your mana. Might add some more strategy.

 

Interesting idea

[DrtyDevil]

can remove the cool down like on pk server it makes leveling easier if you can power level? on tudaes maybe it will make pk more fun if you have that xtra distance to travel with mana makes a longer fight...

 

just imporovising ideas

[bkc56]

can remove the cool down like on pk server it makes leveling easier if you can power level? on tudaes maybe it will make pk more fun if you have that xtra distance to travel with mana makes a longer fight...

What the actual PKers (which excludes me) found is that no cooldown reduced PK on the PK server to more of a battle of EMU. That is, it became less about strategy and more about who had the most supplies to outlast the other person (no mana shortage unless you ran out of SRs).

 

 

And as a footnote: the main reason I've never done any serious PK is the same as posted elsewhere: the expense and risk is just too high to justify getting killed a bunch. And without the fancy toys, you just die faster.

Edited April 10, 2012 by bkc56

[circe]

Personally i think PK is dead because you have certain ppl who kill everyone & anyone just because they can & like others have said, those that want to try PK, give up cos they have had enough of not being given the chance to fight others at thier lvl, yes there are capped arenas but even in those low lvlers still get owned by higher chars, you'll always get some that will kill just for the sheer hell of it & that will never change no matter what you do.

 

As for mages being over powered, too bloody right! I haven't spent years playing & placing my PPs on a mage build just to have my power/spells decreased or capped in some way. I don't PK but like to have a play at it now & then, i'm not much of a fighter or ranger but my magic is the one thing that helps balance things alittle in my favour. Like Calipher said, use MI & a mage doesn't have much hope against you.

 

The only suggestion i can make to try & balance things out abit is put a cap on who you can attack i.e. you are unable to attack anyone who is 50 lvl below you or something like that, that would give those lower lvlers the chance to pk without the worry of being killed the second they step foot in a PK map & high lvlers will just have to pick on someone thier own size

[Aislinn]

As for mages being over powered, too bloody right! I haven't spent years playing & placing my PPs on a mage build just to have my power/spells decreased or capped in some way.

 

This isn't supposed to be about "me". We are all in the same position. Things change, game dynamics change, what defines "balance" changes, things are implemented that either turn out to be not-quite-right, overpowered, whatever. Everyone here knows nothing is static and subject to be changed or removed. It's this kind of argument that landed us in the mess we're in now, both pk specifically and EL's problems specifically, and why nothing's been done and radu gets frustrated.

 

Argh.

[saxum]

The only suggestion i can make to try & balance things out abit is put a cap on who you can attack i.e. you are unable to attack anyone who is 50 lvl below you or something like that, that would give those lower lvlers the chance to pk without the worry of being killed the second they step foot in a PK map & high lvlers will just have to pick on someone thier own size

 

 

That would take all of the "fun" out of PK!

[circe]

Aislinn, i'm sure some other mages would feel the same if the power of thier spells were decreased, it's not just about 'me' but all mages. I'm sure alot of ppl would be alittle bit peeved if they had spent their time building their char a particular way only to have it changed to make them weaker in some form or another, kinda defeats the object of being selective where one places PPs.

My comments weren't intended to come across as arrogant or 'i'm not having my char changed cos some wanna PK' kinda thing

 

Saxum, Do you really think PK is fun when your killing someone 40/50 lvl below you? Wouldn't it be more of a challenge if you had to fight someone that's within your a/d range? & i'm sure it's not fun for those low lvlers that want to learn PK but sadly never stay alive long enough to even see a fight let alone join in with one.

That's probably why so many give up on PK before they have even begun.

[Faxie]

The reasons for me to not pk are:

 

1. What is there to gain for me?

 

At the moment you can be in a drop or no-drop zone to pk. In a drop zone, even if I win the fight, I can hardly win anything. There is a big chance my opponent wears a rost and all I have achieved is to make him loose one, and me not loosing mine. I don't get any joy out of letting other people loose there rost, and I certainly don't think it is worth the risk of me loosing my own.

 

In a no drop zone, I would use resources (arrows, essences, potions) but at a lower cost then using a rost so a lower risk. But still, what do I gain here? PKI? An announcement on channel 6? I don't care about that so it won't persuade me to go in.

 

So if you want me to pk, let me able to win something that justifies the risk I take.

 

2. Can I even win it?

 

People before me have already brought up these arguments. I am 100's a/d and there is no way I could stand a chance against the higher players. I cannot hit them other than crits and hardly dodge any hits. I am not even speaking of the bombers and their ways to kill people. I like a challenge, and don't mind trying stuff, but with nothing to gain and no chance at all I really don't see any reason to go PK.

 

If Pk is turned to a game of strategy rather then who has spend the most cash/time, I would see myself go again.

 

3. Behaviour of some pk'ers

 

Some effords were made to solve the problems I mentioned, but what is the use of a no-drop capped arena if there is bug that has been exploited to to fullest and having people loose a lot of gear to someone that didn't even have to take a risk. He had his fun, but ruined the PK in those areas for me. Fix that and future bugs and punish the ones exploiting them!

 

The constant ridiculing of people that loose pk-fights in ch6. Where is the fun in that? Congratulate the winner, but don't ridicule the looser!

 

So at the moment PK is something where I get ridiculed, takes a great investment and gives me nothing in return.

 

If you have solutions to my reasons not to pk, I would be glad to hear them. I would even help thinking about how to solve these issues. If you want to flame, don't react please.

[Aislinn]

Aislinn, i'm sure some other mages would feel the same if the power of thier spells were decreased, it's not just about 'me' but all mages. I'm sure alot of ppl would be alittle bit peeved if they had spent their time building their char a particular way only to have it changed to make them weaker in some form or another, kinda defeats the object of being selective where one places PPs.

My comments weren't intended to come across as arrogant or 'i'm not having my char changed cos some wanna PK' kinda thing

It doesn't matter how "other mages" feel. If it's broke, it's broke. On this argument, nothing ever can get fixed in EL. And why most things that ARE broke, have not been fixed. Somebody is always upset and those somebodies always scream bloody murder. And I can't say I blame radu for being tired of hearing it. (Whether it's an "easy" fix or a complex time consuming one, it makes one not inclined to want to bother either way. )