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Tank Builds

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And you mentioned the instance training but you didnt know about that till after you made the change to the ignore lvls of fluffs and feros... what is your problem with me training them?

There are a very limited number of instance maps, so if you stay in 1 of them you are taking away the chance to other team enters.

invasion creatures in instances dont ignore anyone, so back to the fluffy/feros ignore question, why do that? and what is your problem with people who dont train afk and have large a/d gaps?

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I don't agree about abusing the game. If the game mechanisms allow certain builds to take advantage, you hardly can't say they abuse the system. You can say they weren't designed the way they are used, but that's just nonsense. You designed a system which you will never be able to come up with every possible way you can play the game. And it's not because you can't think of certain gameplay styles, they are an abuse when somebody else discovers them.

 

Although I can see some people consider this unfair, it isn't. Everyone is free to build their character this way. And as THE game designer, you can add some new code to prevent those builds.

 

Ok, so if your house lock accepts anything else but your key (say, a picklock, a shotgun blast, etc.) as a valid method to enter, and if I use one of those methods to go to your house and steal all your shit, it is OK, because you should have not used a poorly designed lock, yes? You should have obviously bought a bunker with a gun turret and multiple digital locks, not a normal house.

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But wait, even if you get a bunker with electronic locks and stuff, I can wait for you, put a gun to your head and say: Open the fucking door or I'll blow your head off.

And then not only shouldn't you call the police (notice that I didn't ban him), but you shouldn't even hate me, because hey, it is your fault you employed a system that can be abused.

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...and if I use one of those methods to go to your house and steal all your shit...

Most societies (including the US) have rules (laws) against such behavior irrespective of the method used to gain access.

 

So if a certain character build or training style is deemed illegal, then either the game mechanics (enforced by code) or game rules (enforced by mods) would be used to prevent it. Just as multi-play (the use of alts to support a main character) is illegal on the main server (enforced by mods) but totally legal and widely used on the PK server.

 

We can argue all day if a given build/style is good or bad, abuse or not. But in the end, either the code or the rules need to prevent it, or it's not "illegal". And just as new laws can be passed to deal with new unanticipated situations in life, new game rules can be created to deal with new unanticipated uses of game mechanics.

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The rules don't mean shit if you don't get caught. And we were talking about the security system, not about the society example, where the system is MUCH easier to abuse (and it is abused a lot).

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I would also add it's abuse when the flaw has been pointed out, people have been told this and possibly been asked|advised|told not to do it, and still people do it.

 

I'd also like to comment it's not always a simple matter to "just add a rule" or "just fix the system" (especially the latter, obviously) (and speaking in general terms, not just this specific issue).

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The rules don't mean shit if you don't get caught.

So we shouldn't bother having any laws that are fairly easy to not get caught breaking? Right.

 

Sorry but, bkc completely invalidated the example you were trying to use as your argument.

 

An MMORPG server is an extremely controlled environment (unlike RL), if you don't like something you really have no legitimate excuse for not preventing it from ever happening, other than laziness... and I don't mean that as an insult, personally I'm plenty lazy with many aspects of my life and feel no regret for it :hehe:. If you'd prefer to just be annoyed with people doing stuff you don't like rather than modifying code or rules, it's your call, but serving up bullshit analogies won't do anything to reduce people's frustration with your decisions.

Edited by Korrode

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I was kinda surprised by this tank build when I was getting back to EL after about 6 years. This was almost unthinkable back then.

 

I don't want to add directly to the discussion, because alot has changed in the meantime of which I'm not yet aware of. But as a person who always liked the possibility in EL to develop a char in any random direction and who enjoyed playing the role of a tank in other MMOs, I'd like to ask anybody to think about this build as an enrichment to the diversity of EL. IMHO this would also fit to EL from the point of a roleplaying view.

 

So could there be a way to let people build their character as a tank without them having to abuse some of the game mechanics? It's at least possible to build a char this way, and it is even encouraged on the website to try out any build a person likes to do. So why not support this decision by thinking about some design changes which would make it possible to actually play this style?

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The rules don't mean shit if you don't get caught.

So we shouldn't bother having any laws that are fairly easy to not get caught breaking? Right.

 

Sorry but, bkc completely invalidated the example you were trying to use as your argument.

 

Tell me, are you trolling here? Or just trying to piss me off?

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If you hate afk trainers so much why not make it so people who go afk log off after 1 min?

 

'cos I like keeping my afk message up regardless I am/am not afk? I like the system as it is now.

 

 

 

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So we shouldn't bother having any laws that are fairly easy to not get caught breaking? Right.

My first thought when I read that sentence was speed limit laws for roadways.

 

Most all public roads (at least in the US) have speed limits. Many/most people exceed those limits. A few get caught and fined. It doesn't seem to change people's behavior (they still speed) and the laws are still in effect (they don't eliminate them just because they're easy to break, hard to enforce).

 

So how does that apply here? I guess in EL (as in RL) rules (laws) are only as effective as people are mature and responsible to obey them. Enforcement with penalties can help encourage people. But the only way to force compliance (especially when people don't want to comply) is with a more direct measure. On roads, that can be things like speed bumps to slow people down. In the game, that has to be game mechanics (server changes to prevent undesired builds or behavior).

 

Multi-critter def training could be fixed (without messing up other aspects of the game) by making non-invasion critters never attack a player already engaged. No need to change ignore levels, or response to magic spells or anything else. If those multiple critters refuse to attack simultaneously, the problem simply ceases to exist.

 

Large a/d gaps could be fixed by simply making the higher skill's exp stop if the gap is larger than some amount (forcing the lower skill to catch up). No need for lots of changes to try and make it hard for people to create that build by changing other aspects of the game.

 

Now of course I have no idea how easy these sorts of things would be to actually implement. But there might be less unexpected side-effects with focused solutions to specific actions/builds deemed inappropriate rather than making changes to other parts of the game in an attempt to influence (but not force) compliance.

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Bkc, the problem with Korrode is that he hates me so much that he makes himself look even worse to any reasonable, objective person.

In his previous example, he wants perfection from me, from my system, even though he knows that the real world system is not perfect. But I should be perfect. He wants me to react even before a problem is discovered, and hug those who caused that problem, because not liking them is bad. I guess I need to get some Minority Report tools.

Last time I checked, he was even against the Australia's firewall thingy, which was meant to protect the children from porn. (I am not thinking it's a good idea to have that firewall, just saying). If he continues with his blind, nihilist comments, I am going to simply ignore everything he says, won't even bother reading it.

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And speaking of real world system abuse (since Korrode really wants to bring real world crap in play), take a look at this: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/seattle-welfare-recipient-lives-million-dollar-home-161252749.html

This went on for 10 years. But for some reason I am supposed to detect abuse before it even happens, because if I don't, I am lazy or incompetent.

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Well you lost me on the whole breaking in your door and steeling all your stuff... but i dont think any build i could ever think of would allow me to break into anything that you own and steel anything... ever... and i know my stupid response to your, um, response is well... stupid... but if you would go back to page 1 and please read what this thread is about so we can get back on focus

 

also korrode, PM me when you are on next i have some questions for you...

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Bkc, the problem with Korrode is that he hates me so much

I don't "hate" you, you're just extremely arrogant and often incorrect with your assertions making your arrogance unjustified, which is very frustrating to deal with. Most people in EL who know you well feel the same way.

 

 

that he makes himself look even worse to any reasonable, objective person.

I'll let the reasonable, objective people be the judge of that, which doesn't include you.

 

 

In his previous example, he wants perfection from me, from my system

No I don't. I never said anything of the sort. You put words in my mouth or twist my words. You do this often, to lots of people, generally when you're losing an argument and can't handle it.

 

 

even though he knows that the real world system is not perfect. But I should be perfect. He wants me to react even before a problem is discovered, and hug those who caused that problem

Again bullshit. Obviously if a problem is undiscovered even by you then how can you react? I've never said or expected such a thing.

My argument in this thread has simply been that you have the ability to prevent anything from happening that you don't like. It's actually an argument that you use against people often, like if they complain about the BRoD or about being trade-scammed or something, you've previously argued that people have the tools to prevent those things from happening so they have no one to blame but themselves.

 

Your double standards are ridiculous. You're not willing to have applied unto you what you'd have applied unto others.

 

 

Last time I checked, he was even against the Australia's firewall thingy, which was meant to protect the children from porn.

lol... who's trolling now, eh?

I don't know why we're on this topic, but you're speaking without enough knowledge on the topic.

I am against the proposal to force censorship of refused classification material upon all Australian adults.

You need to understand what "Refused Classification" is in Australia. Refused Classification does not just = child porn (which is illegal).

And I am strongly supportive of an easy-to-turn-on government funded opt-in filter so parents can have the censorship in place if they so choose. I even consider an opt-out solution acceptable, where it's on by default and the account holder can contact their ISP and turn it off if they want to.

 

Once again you twist my words or put words in my mouth, trying to make me out to be saying something I'm completely not. You try to make out like i'm against protecting children, which is bullshit and i resent the insinuation.

 

 

If he continues with his blind, nihilist comments, I am going to simply ignore everything he says, won't even bother reading it.

lol nihilism, more talking bullshit about me eh? I'm a strong supporter of the police force and harsh punishments for violent crimes. I just don't like censorship, privacy invasion and victimless acts (that don't lead to victimising down the road) being considered criminal.

 

 

Anyway Radu, you won't have to ignore me. I've taken many breaks from EL over the years but certainly never claimed to have quit. Even at times when I really thought I wouldn't return I never officially quit and said goodbyes because so many people do that and then return later anyway... but shortly I'll post a goodbye thread, and leave both your forums and game for good (barring some unlikely circumstance, like you no longer being in charge of the project).

 

It's both frustrating and saddening that I have to leave behind one of the very few 3D, open-source (client), native Linux MMORPG's in world. My love for both Linux and RPG's compels me to stay and keep hoping you'll come to your senses and the project will improve. I have freely given time to this project and I would and could have given more if you, the head of the project, just weren't such an arrogant prick.

 

So in the footsteps of Linux nerds before me who've left due to you... Goodbye.

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Ok, I read the beginning of your message, seen your tone again, skipped over the rest, and will never bother to ready any of your messages again. Too bad we don't have an ignore feature on the forum :/

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Bkc, the problem with Korrode ...

I don't wish to get in the middle of the disagreement you two have going. Not my business.

 

My point is that when you DO discover some build/activity in the game that does not fit the design or intent, it is within your power to stop it. While rules can help, they require enforcement with puts a further burden on you and mods.

 

But I think there are changes that can be made to the game mechanics to address the issues. And for the (I guess) two being discussed in this thread, I think there are changes that are more direct and focused than the ones that have been made so far.

 

OK, so perhaps some new quest is delayed because you're instead spending time working on a modification to critters to prevent multi-attack on a multi-map (for example). But if you feel it's a large enough problem, then that's the trade-off you make to address it. Some times software maintenance take precedent over new feature development.

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My point is that when you DO discover some build/activity in the game that does not fit the design or intent, it is within your power to stop it.

An which one didn't I stop?

 

But I think there are changes that can be made to the game mechanics to address the issues. And for the (I guess) two being discussed in this thread, I think there are changes that are more direct and focused than the ones that have been made so far.

Changes such as?

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An which one didn't I stop?

It was not my intent to suggest that you didn't slow/stop either one. It was a statement of fact. The thread seemed to get side-tracked with the idea of being able to predict future issues. Perhaps you can't predict all future problems (as you stated above in response to Korrode) but when one is discovered, you can address it. That's all, no deeper meaning.

 

Changes such as?

Disclaimer: I don't have a large a/d gap tank build nor do I multi-train. My information comes from the game updates sub-forum and statements made in @6 (much from you).

 

I believe this thread is about two problems: (1) large a/d gap builds (tank builds) and (2) high def experience from multi-training (getting multiple critters to attack at once). They are of course related as #2 results in #1.

 

I believe they've been addressed with two changes: lowered ignore levels (Nov 16 update), and critters not agro'ing when offensive spells are cast. There may be other changes (I've heard rumors) but I don't know for sure. Both of those changes have other side-effects which may not be desirable. That is the fix has a potentially negative effect on more than just the intended audience.

 

Ignoring possible implementation issues, the ideas (which I already suggested above) were: (1) prevent a large a/d gap by not giving experience to the higher skill if the gap is larger than some amount you pick, and (2) prevent multi-training by modifying critters to not attack if the target is already engaged. Actually, #2 may prevent #1, but it would not fix characters who already have a large gap.

 

I don't know how easy either of those would be to implement, or if they are the best solutions to the problems. My point is that there are solutions that would be more focused fixes with less side-effects. The specific examples may get shot down for some reason, but the idea is still valid.

Edited by bkc56

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Just write how the game should be played . . . cause from what I seen game style is not welcomed.

 

Been playing EL for ~8 Years these are the changes that I have noticed and directly affected me; Added Cooldown, Added caps, nurfed Yeti, removed TS affect, Reduced Ignore levels, Reduced rare drops on most monsters, Reduced Ignore levels, Reduced Ignore levels . .

 

Now that different builds have been discovered it's being changed too. Soon no more strategy all with the typical p/c/r/i build or p/c/r/v build, cause mages arnt that even that great now, nerfed it enough can't kill dragons anymore with it, can't summon dragons to death anymore cause apparently only way that should kill a dragon is via melee. I just wanna know how the game should be played, cause from what I see from where I stand is that any smart/fast way is not really welcomed.

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i know what u are talking about senz but truth is that most players bitch when someone finds a smart way to level, anyway tho this thread is not about this, cause *tank* build is not profitable nor u can actually get something out of it except a big a/d gap

Edited by Mistral

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