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Revise Multi Rule?

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I tried not to bring this up because its a constant argument in el but i have to .

To be able to multi does change the economy but i think it would be for the better. My main is an all arounder and does mostly harvest and mix when not ranging. Yes if it was allowed i would make stuff just as i do now and stock my bot with w/e and buy it with my alt who is a fighter and yes is anti. The way the economy is in el it would be forcing prices back down where they should be. Because if you charge 15 for an srs you better believe i would buy it from bot before i would buy it from you., the price goes down to 14.. i will buy from you.Not everyone has an alt so there will always be ppl who will buy stuff. Fighters (most of them) HATE to harvest and mix ... permant customers. I think thats what ppl are worried about. Prices being what they should be and not inflated like they are. Hell I find someone not anti and buy from NPC most of what i need because it's cheaper than market.

 

And like TV and korrode both said, gc buyers can have a great advantage so the idea that one can use alts to gain an unfair advantage.. more like it would even out the game.

 

again. just my 3 cents.

Edited by Caliphear

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The argument that the effect of multi-ing is likely to be a positive to the EL economy seems rather naive. You might just as well try and make the same argument in favor of macroing, or any other currently illegal method of gaining an advantage over other players.

 

All it achieves is to introduce a style of gameplay that gives such an advantage to those who use it that other players are then effectively forced to do likewise if they want to compete on level terms. Thats fine, if what you're doing enhances the aesthetic qualities of the game, but multi-ing can hardly be said to do that.

 

The assumption that the benefits somehow trickle down to those who don't want to multi, ie through falling prices, assumes that players will produce and distribute a surplus. However, it kind of overlooks multi-ing as an exercise in removing the grind for those that really can't be assed to make the effort. In that respect, all it achieves is reduced need for them to buy other players goods, and the skills/effort/time that go into harving/mixing them.

 

Yup, you'd be quite right in saying that reduced demand would make prices would fall. But whether thats a good thing remains to be seen.

Edited by themuntdregger

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I tried not to bring this up because its a constant argument in el but i have to .

To be able to multi does change the economy but i think it would be for the better. My main is an all arounder and does mostly harvest and mix when not ranging. Yes if it was allowed i would make stuff just as i do now and stock my bot with w/e and buy it with my alt who is a fighter and yes is anti. The way the economy is in el it would be forcing prices back down where they should be.

Because if you charge 15 for an srs you better believe i would buy it from bot before i would buy it from you., the price goes down to 14.. i will buy from you.

 

How do you figure allowing multi will force lower prices? Greed and people who just buy at the ridiculous prices rather then making their own are what keep prices high. I don't see allowing multi changing that much. My guild and I get reasonable prices for things because we sell at reasonable prices to each other. The players of EL can already fix the price problems without any changes made to the game.

 

Not everyone has an alt so there will always be ppl who will buy stuff.

 

Not everyone has an alt RIGHT NOW. Don't you think that might change if multi were allowed? Try thinking about the future with the change, not right now the way things are

 

Fighters (most of them) HATE to harvest and mix ... permant customers. I think thats what ppl are worried about. Prices being what they should be and not inflated like they are. Hell I find someone not anti and buy from NPC most of what i need because it's cheaper than market.

 

Oh by all means lets make major changes to the game because a section of the player base doesn't like a part of it. Well I know a giant chunk of people who don't like getting killed in PK zones. Let's take all those out too.

 

And like TV and korrode both said, gc buyers can have a great advantage so the idea that one can use alts to gain an unfair advantage.. more like it would even out the game.

 

again. just my 3 cents.

 

So lets even out the game a better way and suggest getting rid of 'tolerated' gold selling

 

 

****

So much would have to change for multi to work on the main server. Getting rid of the anti and HOS perks and making depletable harvestables jump to mind right away. Then there are some little nagging issues that seem to have no answer, like leaving an alt as spy at PK map entrances and then bringing in your main when someone does go in. Whats to be done about stuff like that? Barely anyone is looking at the whole big picture when they talk about this idea they are thinking as far as their own game play and thats it.

Edited by Nova

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Even if, and it's a BIG BIG BIG "if", something were to be considered in changing the multi issue, there still would be conditions and things that wouldn't be allowed. It wouldn't be some carte blanche free-for-all.

 

Every now and then we do have this talk and it's not simple.

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But why change the rules about multi play? (I notice that it's not a mod that started the discussion, they usually are quite able to speak up for themselves...)

 

I can see all the problems for family members, that are almost by definition on the same IP address (and thus look like alts). Information on that subject for beginning players could perhaps be improved, to reduce the number of problems (but I'm not optimistic about that anyway, whatever information you make available...)

 

Otherwise, I thought the idea of the game is to develop a character as you want to develop it, and to have interactions between the players.

I can see the attraction of having alts to explore different ways of building a character, or different approaches to the game, and that is allowed under the current rules.

 

I have yet to see a reason to allow interactions between alts that are not based on

'I want to avoid the boring bits of the game with my main'

(harvesting and/or mixing in general). But, those 'boring bits' are part of the game... As for using alts to get around anti-social perk, the less said the better (or give everyone 10 PP and remove the perk :whistle: ).

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My main is a mixer/harvester/ranger and not noob levels , my alt is a fighter also not noob levels which yes before someone throws it out there was bought. So either way i am on both sides of the coin of when speaking of mixer/fighter arguments. One of the reasons for market issues is that no one wants to mix and those who do mix seem to buy the ing .. i hear all the time "my prices are so high because i have to pay so much for the ing" . Get off your arse and harvest your own stuff? My main harvests everything therefor my prices are very low. So tell me exactly how having your alt buy from your bot at the same price everyone else buys from it for is going to ruin the market? (other than aislinns concern of you knowing what your alt needs). I do have to agree with aislinn that IF something would change there would definatly still need to be rules on it.

 

Nova I'm not suggesting taking anything away from the mixers as my main is a mixer .. someone still has to mix the stuff and work for those levels no? And the pkers who hate to harvest and mix.. i highly doubt they would make an alt to do what they hate.

 

"Oh by all means lets make major changes to the game because a section of the player base doesn't like a part of it. Well I know a giant chunk of people who don't like getting killed in PK zones. Let's take all those out too." Not sure exactly how this fits into this discussion since we arent trying to remove mixing or harvesting. BUt curious for you to explain this.

 

As for the gold selling and buying, like aislinn has said they cant police that since its outside of el you really cant prove anything. So this is always going to give players an advantage over those of us who dont do it.

 

As korrode said look how many ppl get banned for multi which in some cases chase ppl away from el. Have you noticed how few players there are on el compared to even a year ago? No saying multi is the only reason for el's decline in players but it does have a hand in it.

 

Revi if your alt is doing all the boring stuff then you are still doing all the boring stuff or its not your alt.

 

My only issue about the multi rule is buying and selling to and from bots at fair market prices not using your non anti alt to buy from npc for you or make you gc from harving crap etc

Edited by Caliphear

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I agree that it would be a bad thing, mostly for the reasons already explained above. You cant even think of making any decisions without looking at worst case scenarios also, ignoring these would be the silliest thing to do. We are playing a game, not a factory line. The setup and game engine of wow cant be compared to EL. The boring bits as some call it, are as said part of the game, and if you take anti you know the price.

 

I don’t even want to suggest it, but if, if it would be approved why not have it then that first character is free, and second (etc) only available from the shop, so it would benefit the game in that way. And I am not thinking cheap, perhaps from $100 from first alt and increasing with every next one. But still, the personal gain of the few would destroy the essence of the game in itself.

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I don’t even want to suggest it, but if, if it would be approved why not have it then that first character is free, and second (etc) only available from the shop, so it would benefit the game in that way. And I am not thinking cheap, perhaps from $100 from first alt and increasing with every next one. But still, the personal gain of the few would destroy the essence of the game in itself.

 

And here is the main problem again: how to find out, if a char is an alt or not?

You can't.

Saying that a 2nd char from the same IP is an alt doesnt fit, it could be a family member or another player from the same internet cafe.

 

Or someone has access to 2 IP adresses or uses a proxy.

 

Thats why i say since 100 years: get rid of the multiplaying rule, it causes more trouble and forces players to leave the game than it benefits the game at all.

 

And to those, who say, that will ruin the economy, keep in mind, we are talking about multiplaying, not about allowing macroing.

 

So it is still one real player who plays one or more characters.

 

You think, that will still affect the economy dramatically?

 

Go on the test server and create 2 chars there. Use one to train and the other one to harvest stuff and find out, if it is still fun to play with 2 accounts AT THE SAME TIME for longer than 10 minutes.

 

Piper

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So tell me exactly how having your alt buy from your bot at the same price everyone else buys from it for is going to ruin the market? (other than aislinns concern of you knowing what your alt needs). I do have to agree with aislinn that IF something would change there would definatly still need to be rules on it.

 

Aislinns concern seems to be the more important part. It's not just the buying and the selling but the advantage of having one or more characters that 'slave' for the main character. Now you don't have to worry about giving your main any nexus to harv or mix anything so that's PPs you don't have to spend on the main. Now the main can take HOS and anti because you never have to harv or mix with it. Etc. etc. The game is set up so that you have to decide where to put those precious PPs in order to do what you want. Looking at it from that perspective, why allow multi play and blow all that away?

 

I'm not completely against multi play in a game really but it just doesn't make sense to me if you look at the way this game is set up.

 

Nova I'm not suggesting taking anything away from the mixers as my main is a mixer .. someone still has to mix the stuff and work for those levels no? And the pkers who hate to harvest and mix.. i highly doubt they would make an alt to do what they hate.

 

Who said you were suggesting that?

I'm willing to bet plenty of people would make alts to do the things in game that they don't like if they can supply their main with 'free' supplies. You can harv and mix on one character while fighting on another pretty easily. If your alt needs gc for something, the main buys it for the alt. If so inclined you wouldn't have to have any character interact with anyone at all. All that stuff will affect large portions of the game. Will it be a good or bad affect? Can anyone really take every single thing into account and know?

 

 

"Oh by all means lets make major changes to the game because a section of the player base doesn't like a part of it. Well I know a giant chunk of people who don't like getting killed in PK zones. Let's take all those out too." Not sure exactly how this fits into this discussion since we arent trying to remove mixing or harvesting. BUt curious for you to explain this.

 

Not trying to remove mixing or harvesting, obviously, but justifying a suggestion to change the game because blah blah blah doesn't like blah blah blah.

Fighters (most of them) HATE to harvest and mix ... permant customers. I think thats what ppl are worried about. Prices being what they should be and not inflated like they are. Hell I find someone not anti and buy from NPC most of what i need because it's cheaper than market.
Shouldn't need more clarification.

 

 

As for the gold selling and buying, like aislinn has said they cant police that since its outside of el you really cant prove anything. So this is always going to give players an advantage over those of us who dont do it.

 

And changing the stance that gold/char buying and selling is tolerated as long as you don't do it in official forums or channels wouldn't stop a lot of it right off the bat? It's not just as viable an idea as allowing multi play?

 

As korrode said look how many ppl get banned for multi which in some cases chase ppl away from el.

 

As much as I lubs Korr's drunken ass, how much weight can you really give that argument? It's not that it's untrue or anything but multi is allowed in some games, not in EL. If you want to have multiple characters interact then this isn't the game for you as it is now. These people are banned because they broke a rule of the game. Of course some are going to get pissed and not come back.

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Although I understand why people would want the multirule changed, i think indeed it would be a bad thing, as Nova said it would enable people to just drop the whole nexus thing altogether, when personally I think that the nexus system is actually a plus to the game, it makes that people have to think a little before they act.

 

Not entirely unrelated, the following scenario came to mind though...

 

So say 2 people have been friends for a while, are both equally commited to the game, and both wish to keep their mains free from having many nexus. They then decide to bypass the multi rule in the following way:

 

Player A´s alt afk harvests and mixes essences

Player B´s alt afk harvests and mixes essences

 

Player A´s alt donates all the items just made to Player B

Player B´s alt donates all the items just made to Player A

 

Both alts still do the work and have the nexus, while the mains have an unfair advantage. So long as the alts dont trade eachother and the mains don't either, technically speaking that's perfectly fine, but is it really fair?

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it would enable people to just drop the whole nexus thing altogether, when personally I think that the nexus system is actually a plus to the game, it makes that people have to think a little before they act.

I disagree completely.

I don't think that the points spent on attributes being the same points that get spent on nexus' is a good thing at all. It holds back all-rounders from being able to excel in combat even when they're willing to put in the same amount of time a/d training as others on 'pure fighter' chars.

 

If everyone could take the neg perks and have fewer nexuses on their combat char it would help to equalize things significantly.

 

edit:

anyways we can all speculate forever but until it's tested we never know how positive or negative the impact of allowing multi would be.

 

So lets trial allowing it for a couple months and see if the fears are founded or not?

Edited by Korrode

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So lets trial allowing it for a couple months and see if the fears are founded or not?

Probably wouldn't want to risk any potential "damage" to main. But everyone has their character on the test server so anyone who wanted to could run a 2-month test over there right now with no risks. Get 50-100 people in the test and you'd get a good feel for how such a system would work in practice.

 

And before anyone posts how they can't play main and test at the same time....

 

If that's true, then you can't play multiple chars (main + alts) at the same time either, which removes most of the advantage of multi-play anyway.

 

Of course talk is cheap. I suspect few would actually be willing to do the work of playing on the test server for a month or more to test the theory. And the test wouldn't be valid if only a few people did it "on the side" (while still focusing on their activities on main).

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Of course talk is cheap. I suspect few would actually be willing to do the work of playing on the test server for a month or more to test the theory. And the test wouldn't be valid if only a few people did it "on the side" (while still focusing on their activities on main).

Indeed.

What you suggest just won't happen.

Gotta test on the main server.

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i have a strange feeling, that if this rule is actually repealed and multi is allowed suddenly on main.. this will be the beginning of the death of EL. call me over-dramatic.. i won't write an essay to explain. i favor an "innocent until proven guilty" attitude towards same IP players and first time offenders, but that's about it.

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I don't think that the points spent on attributes being the same points that get spent on nexus' is a good thing at all. It holds back all-rounders from being able to excel in combat even when they're willing to put in the same amount of time a/d training as others on 'pure fighter' chars.

Very well put. That's how I feel too. But we're already in a situation where some folks have spent 20+ nexus. If I could level up a second char to make my HE/other stuff, then 13 of my nexus could be considered useless. It would create yet another advantage to people who just started playing or haven't put much nexus on yet.

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it would enable people to just drop the whole nexus thing altogether, when personally I think that the nexus system is actually a plus to the game, it makes that people have to think a little before they act.

I disagree completely.

I don't think that the points spent on attributes being the same points that get spent on nexus' is a good thing at all. It holds back all-rounders from being able to excel in combat even when they're willing to put in the same amount of time a/d training as others on 'pure fighter' chars.

 

If everyone could take the neg perks and have fewer nexuses on their combat char it would help to equalize things significantly.

 

edit:

anyways we can all speculate forever but until it's tested we never know how positive or negative the impact of allowing multi would be.

 

So lets trial allowing it for a couple months and see if the fears are founded or not?

If you talk to most all arounders Korr you'll probably see that they know and accept that while their levels might be the same a a pure fighter they aren't able to take abuse as well. It's that decision part of the game. If you want to do it all there is some trade over to that, same as the trade over of not being able to do a damn thing for yourself besides kicking ass and chewing gum if you want to be a pure fighter. Nothing a whole lot of hydro can't fix. And hell, we're all arounders we can harv it, mix it, mix it, manu it, run it, harv it, and mix it all with our one character so we'll get there eventually. :D

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If you talk to most all arounders Korr you'll probably see that they know and accept that while their levels might be the same a a pure fighter they aren't able to take abuse as well.

Accept? Yes, sure. And you can even argue that it's better for the game.

But it would have been nice if nexus was independent of pickpoints that you spend on attributes and that we didn't have to compromise to be able to do everything.

Edit: It's fine as it is. People can always do hydro resets. It's just thought :)

On second thought, I'm a bit off topic.

Edited by hussam

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The scenario Raz is describing is not extreme at all, it's very accurate and realistic - if multi were allowed that's exactly how the "pro" players would use their chars, and they would have to, since they "need" to be ahead of their competitors.

 

Debates on forum all of a sudden wouldn't be about if mixing leather helms in school or at Trik yields better manu XP for the effort, but rather how to best place all your alts so you get most XP in the shortest time.

 

Some silly n00bs with old computers, who cannot play more than one char at a time, would be laughed at in channel 6 "Go back to IP and

 

Oh yes, i would "love" an alt bagsitting for me at gypsum, or muling up ings so i can mix my tiger stones. No need to bother friends with it.

 

No, no, if that happens, any newbie players entering the game would believe they ended up in ghost town with all those zombies sitting around- more than it's already for a bit.. we don't want this, do we?

 

I think we had the discussion a year ago, even with voting, and the majority voted in favor of the current handling.

 

Maybe with an entirely different concept we could revise, but AFAIK there haven't been any good Suggestions yet.

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Gotta test on the main server.

 

The surgery was a great success. Pity, the patient didn't make it.

 

I can see the happiness of the community when we face a major, a few month worth rollback if your experiment does not work out. Joy joy joy. A really really GREAT idea.

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Ah yes Vanyel, because there's really risk of damage to this game's awesome economy that would be absolutely irreparable to the point were we'd have to roll back. Right.

 

 

Stop being a drama queen.

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With all due respect Korrode, Vanyel made a valid point, are you willing to pay the consequences if the experiment does not work and a rollback of x many months of the whole player base ( some not even giving a moments thought about multi playing ) would be required? Proper testing outside the game would be a first requirement, this change would involve more, much more then just a dent/bump into the economy.

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If multiplaying were allowed, it would become mandatory for those with a certain ambition. The "pr0" would do it EXACTLY as Raz described above. Not very much of a game any more ! The winners of the competition would be those with more gigabytes in their computers because they would be able to play more chars at the same time.

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With all due respect Korrode, Vanyel made a valid point, are you willing to pay the consequences if the experiment does not work and a rollback of x many months of the whole player base ( some not even giving a moments thought about multi playing ) would be required?

Hell no.

Any trial on the main server needs to be done without rollback at the end.

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The way I see it: this game was/is build upon 3 principles: Luck, Chance and making Decisions. Luck in making or failing the items, or being able to slay that creature or not. Chance; the making of a rare item or finding the rare drop from a creature or harvestable. Decisions: with every overall level you get a point how to shape (add character) to your character, will I take that perk and change the future of that character so accordingly or increase that attribute or that nexus, or... No matter if you’re a newbie or one of the oldest, every time, with every overall level it is…Decision time.

 

The community / player base of EL is very diverse, as humans are, not all find it boring to harvest or create, the same as not all find running after (or from) the wildlife their thing. And that’s how players specialized themselves. If there is something I cannot make (for whatever reason) or cannot kill (for whatever reason) I look for the best available specialist. That’s why this is a multiplayer game, not a single player. Every ‘creating’ specialist, even ‘all-rounders’, knows by the Decisions he/she made that he/she will never will be a great pure fighter, as some are, who specialized themselves into being a great pure fighter instead. That is their specialty. For a few years now there are beside the hydro bar way, stones to correct possible wrongly made choices, permanent or temporarily, I suppose by popular demand, which already lowered the importance of ‘Decisions’.

 

Just suppose, if, if it all would happen, that we all would be able to create ourselves a private team, there would be no more need of the specialists, the ‘team’ would be self fed / self supportive. Sales to/from other players and/or bots will slow down to a stop, all removal stones in-game would become totally useless and would no longer have any value, the demand of for hydro could grind to a halt, some perks have no longer any meaning and just become a pp fest, and most important Decision time has gone on a permanent holiday, one of the pillars of the game.

 

Just think if all, or lets say 70% of player base would have a private specialists team of 2-3-4 alts online, with a player base of lets say 300 it would be suddenly aprox 950 players online, of which aprox 650 afk-zombies, claiming spawns, storage space, harvestables, on the look out at pk maps. etc. etc. Even with just 25% of player base it would be approximately 225 extra afk-zombies. Is this how we want EL to look like and be?

 

Besides that, with every day we improve our team less and less interaction between other players in our every day life is required. Is this not exactly something why we are playing a multiplayer roleplaying game instead of single?

 

 

edit:typo

Edited by Nardo Lala

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