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How do you kick a person out? It requires new commands, maybe even a kick vote thing, takes time to implement, and can be abused too. How do you know people won't kick out weaker players?

And what's wrong with 2-3 teams?

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How do you kick a person out? It requires new commands, maybe even a kick vote thing, takes time to implement, and can be abused too. How do you know people won't kick out weaker players?

And what's wrong with 2-3 teams?

Well you're the coder, you tell me :P Seriously, I don't know really what we would be capable of doing.

 

2-3 teams is boring especially when one is going to dominate over everybody else all the time.

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We would be capable of doing almost everything, but of course, the question is: Are there better things to do with our time?

Regarding the 2-3 teams, I hope you understand that there is no reason why players can't change teams if they want to. Or they can have a team of 5 pros vs 10 semi pros, etc.

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We would be capable of doing almost everything, but of course, the question is: Are there better things to do with our time?

Regarding the 2-3 teams, I hope you understand that there is no reason why players can't change teams if they want to. Or they can have a team of 5 pros vs 10 semi pros, etc.

Well I think I am safe in saying time spent on a way for a team to remove a griefer would be time well spent in terms of appreciation from the player population at large. Especially given we have a couple of major ones. Would it be used often? Hopefully not, so in a warped way, not time well spent. But also knowing the ability exists could be a deterrent as well.

 

I wouldn't object to a poll about planned teams vs random teams. But NOT on @6. You want to get more people involved in pk and pvp with this who don't usually do so, so you want regular players' input, not just the vocal @6-current-loud-pkers.

 

Given how current instances go with all the planning and strategy (slow) and given how well total player-strangers work together even on the dailies when they come together unexpectedly, and given the current pk cliques who will just bond together the strongest teams per instance level they can, I don't see how random is not a win/win situation both in fun and in encouraging many more people to give it a try, when they see they won't be ganged up on by the current reigning pk gangs.

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In my opinion, I would rather have random queuing as well. As people use the system and start to pk, the strategy will fall into place with teams even when chose at random. And if a team has no rangers then that just means that they have an extra fighter to attack the ranger. It really will even itself out.

 

If a fight takes 30 minutes, people are going to get bored of it quick imo. That would be too long and drawn out. Maybe an occasional long match would be ok but not often.

 

You could integrate both ideas into one. Make it where if two people are in the same guild, they get queued together into the same team. So if a team wanted to be together they still could, while other people could random queue.

 

Just in my own personal opinion, if you have to create your own team etc, i won't use the system as much as if it had random queuing.

 

Also, would be nice if the npc was in a highly used map or better yet, a window queue on the toolbar.

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Other games (League Of Legends comes to mind) has a queue before going into the game.

 

Because you dont' know how you're going up against it allows for more replayability.

 

However, the system also allows for you to preset a team and go with them if you want. But the randomize queue also allowed you to go alone and pair up with others if you didn't know anyone who wanted to go at the same time.

 

But I feel this system would be better utilized with a larger playerbase, as it would require at least 6-10 people wanting to do this at the same time, nearly all the time.

 

 

Again, with the same LoL system, it matched players based on their levels. Meaning the teams would not be heavily stacked as all 10 people ingame were relatively the same level. (OR if a preset team, their average level with a modifier).

 

 

I got skeptic because I prefer to chose myself what I like to do on a day to day basis. Skill/Choices > Luck. -- Randomness doesn't mean luck or not, as I said earlier, replayability. If not every instance is the same, it's more fun.

 

--

And what's wrong with 2-3 teams?

Let's cut the NFL to only three teams, and a relatively static roster. They play every year. Will the turnout to the superbowl be as intense as it is now (now refering to like.. before like. the union thing..) with player changes/coach changes/etc?

 

edit:

 

What I saw this instance as was a quick king of the hill kind of deal. You shouldn't need too many supplies and thus not mules. If you're just going to fight and see who has the most HEs/SRS... we need to fix the combat system first then. (Or rather make it more balanced without luck/more criticals so fights won't last so long)

Edited by Raytray

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Well I think I am safe in saying time spent on a way for a team to remove a griefer would be time well spent in terms of appreciation from the player population at large. Especially given we have a couple of major ones. Would it be used often? Hopefully not, so in a warped way, not time well spent. But also knowing the ability exists could be a deterrent as well.

 

What I meant was, not only would I have to implement the OTHER things (which already take a lot of time) but I'd have to implement this too. And this is not easy to design and implement in a way that can't be abused. Or, I could use my time to add more daily quests, something that most people enjoy, not just a small subset of the EL population.

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Another quick comment about the griefer issue:

As long as we let them stay and determine that style of play to be a legitimate one here, albeit annoying and worse, I feel we owe it to the players to provide tools for them deal with it in response.

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As for the griefer issue, ignore.

 

It's not as teammates can (or should be allowed to) pk each other in the instance.

Sure he can plant mines, summon annoying things, but nothing to the extent where it would completely ruin the experience of others. EL has a lot of nice people in it, and I'm sure that if you can see every one who is going before the thing starts, players may take a vote where at least 7-8/10 majority is required to remove someone from the random queue... Otherwise, most people will be fine with voting yes sure lets go and play whatever.

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Well I think I am safe in saying time spent on a way for a team to remove a griefer would be time well spent in terms of appreciation from the player population at large. Especially given we have a couple of major ones. Would it be used often? Hopefully not, so in a warped way, not time well spent. But also knowing the ability exists could be a deterrent as well.

 

What I meant was, not only would I have to implement the OTHER things (which already take a lot of time) but I'd have to implement this too. And this is not easy to design and implement in a way that can't be abused. Or, I could use my time to add more daily quests, something that most people enjoy, not just a small subset of the EL population.

Hrmph, first time I've heard pk and pvp referred to as "a small subset" of EL.

I think you would be surprised how many people would go. Remember, even I went into the regular instance! And do a/d dailies!

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We obviously have different visions of how the instances would/should be...

 

What does surprise have to do with lack of prior strategy and tactics? Personally, I would think tactics is a very important and cool part.

Just have it so there's a few mins between team being made and combat starting...

 

Umm, many people don't feel like giving their Skype ID to everyone. And by the time you get everyone's Skype ID, add them make a Skype session for everyone, etc. the fight can be over.

I don't think communication methods external from what the game provides should be considered at all.

 

Would you like to end up with Morath? Or how about someone new, not very powerful? He will get blamed for his team loss.

Firstly, there's basically no players i'd pull out of the instance because of. The randomness is part of what makes it interesting. You end up fighting alongside someone you normally wouldn't and maybe get some unexpected results.

 

EDIT: If some people start deliberately ruining the instance for their team, yes obviously some system will need to be in place to deal with it... I'll think more on this.

 

I thought many people don't like the luck factor. that's why many fighters get Skeptic.

Unless complete stats are given about every member of all selectable opposition teams, there's always going to be a luck factor. You won't be able to really accurately determine the PK prowess of any group based just on a combined combat rating. (and ofc you can never predetermine general PK skill)

 

5. Without these unknown quantities, nothing would be any different than what we have already...guild vs guild, same old fighting same old.

Not at all, there would be different rules and stuff.

There's possibility to make new friends when it's random too, which is good.

 

6. I would expect this would be worked out and discussed within guilds before people signed up.

How?

If you know 2 of you from the same guild are queuing, then one could leave guild.

 

No mules mean short fights. Would be nice for the fights to last at least 30 minutes, if not more.

For me, this is the most jaw-dropping thing you've said... 30 mins? are you kidding?

It's certainly not what i envisioned and I don't think it will be popular if you tweak it so it takes that long.

It should be a quick PK game, maybe 5-10 mins, no one would be using mule because resources running out shouldn't be the primary deciding factor, most DPS should be the deciding factor.

 

EDIT: Also, the massive amount of resources required to maintain 30 mins of solid PK would outweigh the fun factor... so unless you make the reward pretty damn huge, it'd also reduce popularity.

 

(eg. If you tweak it so it's 30 mins and a massive resource burner, personally I won't be doing it regularly, if at all.)

 

Statistics are not a necessity, but are nice. And you can't have tournaments if you don't have fixed teams. And how do you decide which players will go to the instance anyway? Wht prevents someone like Morath from sneaking in?

Some kind of automated tournament system would be nice (if you meant a player run tournament that still requires people's time and organisation skills, we can do that without the PvP instance system). But the benefits of random queuing outweigh it.

 

 

If you're gung-ho on non-random queuing being possible, fine, but IMO also implement random queuing at the same time (not later), so either way we're all good.

Edited by Korrode

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Very successful games like DOTA, LoL and so on take about 30-60 minutes. If a Pk instance takes 5 minutes, I don't see how that's fun, and why do you need an instance for it. Just go in KF and skirmish a bit. Do you realize that it takes more time to gather a team (and go to the instance place, and so on) than the time you propose an instance to last? How is that fun?

 

Hrmph, first time I've heard pk and pvp referred to as "a small subset" of EL.

I think you would be surprised how many people would go. Remember, even I went into the regular instance! And do a/d dailies!

 

A lot of people are not fighters. Among those who are fighters, few are PKers.

You can't say that "omfg PK is dead" while at the same time say that PKers are not a small subset of the EL population.

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Very successful games like DOTA, LoL and so on take about 30-60 minutes.

Same with WoW, but those games (basically) don't cost you anything to PK.

Comparatively, the resource cost of going and PK'ing for 30-60mins in EL is MASSIVE.

In those games when you die during PvP you respawn within the map (and there's no death cost). They don't have single engagements that go on for 30 mins, they have lots of brief engagements, so the effect is close to if a person were to do the proposed type of ~5 min instance a few times in quick succession.

 

The way their PvP instances work is not comparable to what you're proposing.

 

If a Pk instance takes 5 minutes, I don't see how that's fun, and why do you need an instance for it. Just go in KF and skirmish a bit.

The instance system finds willing PK teammates and opponents for you.

The instance system ensures the opposition you're going to encounter isn't massively stronger than you.

The instance queuing system, if done right, can allow a person to continue what they're doing until other people are ready to PK, rather than sitting in KF doing nothing but being unable to even glance at a Youtbue clip while they wait because they still have to watch the EL window closely.

 

Do you realize that it takes more time to gather a team (and go to the instance place, and so on) than the time you propose an instance to last? How is that fun?

Only with your concept of implementation.

If you're willing to use a random queuing system, there's no need for any of that. There could just be a button on the client window (or a command you type) that queues you. boom, done, 2 seconds.

 

In WoW i don't go to an NPC or some such, i just bring up the Battleground queuing window and click 'join queue'.

 

EDIT:

 

Hrmph, first time I've heard pk and pvp referred to as "a small subset" of EL.

I think you would be surprised how many people would go. Remember, even I went into the regular instance! And do a/d dailies!

 

A lot of people are not fighters. Among those who are fighters, few are PKers.

You can't say that "omfg PK is dead" while at the same time say that PKers are not a small subset of the EL population.

Maybe we should make a poll asking people who've never been the type to PK at all frequently if they'd be willing to at least give a random queuing pvp instance system a go?

Edited by Korrode

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I don't know how WoW does it, but I know how DotA does it. And I think it is fun. And millions think it's fun. A 5 minutes PK session has very little strategy involved, only some tactics. It doesn't offer anything more than KF can offer, only that it is easier for lazy people (omfg, let the system do it for us, we can't bother to make our own teams and go to KF).

I also totally disagree with your queue system where you can watch redtube and mule silver while waiting for the instance, then you magically spawn there, from whatever place in the game you are at.

If I implement it, I want to have strategy as well as tactics, not just quick skirmishes. I want it to be fun and have more than raw PKing.

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I don't know how WoW does it, but I know how DotA does it. And I think it is fun. And millions think it's fun.

How does DotA do it? they have single combat engagements that go on for 30 mins do they?

 

A 5 minutes PK session has very little strategy involved, only some tactics.

What's funny is that even with your implementation, it's going to be extremely rare that one of the instances will last for 30 mins. You'll have to do huge amounts of work to force such a situation.

 

When full AP rangers and ACW/giant summoners and uber tinf fighters using a bronze swords and fire arrows start their DPS'ing, people start dropping.

 

Very long engagements in EL are not fun, they wouldn't be fun in any game. On my Revik char at DPa i've fought other 'DPa pr0s' and the fights go on for ages, everyone agrees it's boring.

 

It doesn't offer anything more than KF can offer, only that it is easier for lazy people (omfg, let the system do it for us, we can't bother to make our own teams and go to KF).

You expect way to much from players...

 

I also totally disagree with your queue system where you can watch redtube while and mule silver while waiting for the instance, then you magically spawn there, from whatever place in the game you are at.

If I implement it, I want to have strategy as well as tactics, not just quick skirmishes. I want it to be fun and have more than raw PKing.

I wish you the best of luck.

(Not sarcasm btw, I hope I'm wrong and you're right and the way you implement it will be popular and provide a fun PK experience. I just doubt that's going to be the outcome is all.)

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How does DotA do it? they have single combat engagements that go on for 30 mins do they?

Of course not.

 

What's funny is that even with your implementation, it's going to be extremely rare that one of the instances will last for 30 mins. You'll have to do huge amounts of work to force such a situation.

You don't even know all my implementation details, as we didn't discuss everything. I can assure you that I have a very easy, fun and elegant way of 'forcing' instances that can take up to 30-60 minutes.

 

 

When full AP rangers and ACW/giant summoners and uber tinf fighters using a bronze swords and fire arrows start their DPS'ing, people start dropping.

Yes

 

Very long engagements in EL are not fun, they wouldn't be fun in any game. On my Revik char at DPa i've fought other 'DPa pr0s' and the fights go on for ages, everyone agrees it's boring.

I agree. And that wouldn't be possible anyway outside of DPA (except for pvp training purposes).

 

You expect way to much from players...

You know, buying a nice car takes a lot of work, but many people drive nice cars. Why? Because to them the reward is worth it. If people are so lazy that they can't spend a few minutes organizing fights, that means they don't enjoy PKing that much.

 

I wish you the best of luck.

(Not sarcasm btw, I hope I'm wrong and you're right and the way you implement it will be popular and provide a fun PK experience. I just doubt that's going to be the outcome is all.)

 

Thanks. I am quite sure my system would work.

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6. There is no penalty for death, but when you die you GTFO.

I've taken "GTFO" as meaning 'You leave the instance'. Unless I've misinterpreted that, I'm very interested to see what method you have of making the instance last for ~30 mins for anyone other than the top combatants in the instance.

 

Feel like elaborating? :)

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Hmm, right, I said that and I should have elaborated a bit.

The idea is that you will have multiple lives, and when they expire you GTFO.

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Well some of mine thoughts.

1. About teaming for pvp , maybe the players that want to be at the same team buy an item from this npc(the other team buys another item - maybe 2 kind of tokens would work. ) , and keep it until the end of the instance, if they die without a rosto will lose this item and leave pvp arena or otherwise they keep the item and continue fight. When there will be a winning pvp team, the players that have not died (and left arena) they give the item to the npc and get the reward.

 

2. Well the exp/gc thing as reward is good but it will be boring after a while to continue doing it, especially if strong group of players get teamed up for every pvp fight. So what are you looking for is for people not to get bored after trying it for some time, you need a long term goal for players. Well as i see it, there should be a achievement after some pvping, maybe when u reach the number of 1k fights u get a nice big reward :P and then u can continue to silver and golden achievement ranking with nicer rewards :P

 

 

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I have never played Dota but LoL is the game i was referring to. Thats where inferno and I went while we were taking a break from el. Also where he got the idea for the experience boosts. There are many EL players on LoL.

 

No matter what you do you can not make everyone happy. someone will always complain. But remember you can always tweak what doesnt work. But I do agree if there was a way to make it random if you chose to, or didnt have a team together or even enough players for a team, that would be ideal. But i am no coder. Making it more strategic and allowing multiple lives i think will get many more ppl pking, hopefully even draws more players in.On another thread about this there was a few non pkers who said they would try this.

 

In LoL we always had skype going and you would be surprised how many ppl freely give you their skype id knowing it makes the game go more smoothly.Even when TKN vs PRKL fights were a nightly thing we had a skype call going. I dont think that will be an issue at all. If the dont want to skype then you will have to use the chat system for that player.

 

As far as the unfavorable players, i say just see what happens. Morath can play nice when he wants to and so can dubro. If they cause problems then deal with it.

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An easy way to randomize the teams could be done similar to the existing instance entry method.

 

For example, 10 people join a chat channel for the instance and go to the battle hall. Then 1 person talks to the npc to enter the team. The server then picks the 2 highest combat level people to be on opposite teams - perhaps designated as 'leaders' if there is a reason to have a leader. Then the remaining people get assigned randomly to each team after that. Everyone's existing guild could be logged, and then the server could automatically pull them out of their guild and stick them into a temp guild for the instance. At the end of the instance, the server could then stick them back in their regular guild.

 

IMHO, the less fumbling around with special commands and creating/leaving guilds the simpler this will be, and the more popular it will be. This also prevents people like Morath from causing problems as you would have to give them the chat channel number to begin with.

Edited by Quesar

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Well I think a simple poll should be done about random vs planned teams, and about length of instance.

Fun is a relative term, everybody has a different idea of what it is. But my opinion is you have to look at what your goal for EL is. Are you making a game for just yourself to play or do you want more players AND to please the players you already have AND to get more players involved in multiple aspects of it?

 

Here is what I see right now as a problem:

1. The modified suggestion is nothing like the original posted suggestion. I've seen multiple people both here and ingame (and make note: none of them in channel 6) who would love the random factor and would try it in that scenario. But what will happen is, the modified suggestion gets put in, and people don't bother with it, and then you get angry that you put all this work in and people don't use it.

 

2. I personally would try the instance as proposed originally, short and random queue. I have NO interest in a long drawn out organized and planned version of what we already have in pk. It is a given that very quickly players will figure out which combinations for each instance level will produce a power-team. All the planning and strategy in the world won't make it any more fun to have to fight those teams every blasted time and lose. Even if there ended up being 2 or 3, that still is no fun. You can go get an easy death now by the same handful of people every time you walk into the map. Why code extra for more of the same?

 

3. I thought the whole purpose of this is to add variety and fun to pk/pvp and bring in more players at all levels so people have fun even though they aren't the top tier of pk? AND to bring in more players who don't usually pk/pvp because it's a pointless venture for the casual pk/pvper?

 

4. I would suggest you make it both ways: a random queue instance and a strategy-make-your-own-power-team instance. But I also know that's not fair because it's your time I'm volunteering ;)

 

Also I disagree with the assessment that people want the random queue because they're lazy. Reasons for wanting it have already been outlined in this thread and none of them imply lazy.

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I see radu and korr arguing about 2 different things which could be made into 2 different types of instances if people are patient and radu has time.

 

1- Korr's idea of quick PK battles w/ a random queue. Maybe have the winners be decided by best 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 5 (or more) short battles once the teams are picked.

 

2- Radu's idea of something that would take more strategy. Something like capture the flag (like he mentioned in the first post) where there are 'flags' at each end of the map that the teams have figure out how to guard theirs while getting the other teams and getting back to safety.

 

I'm not a PKer at all, the only thing I've ever killed is an unlucky ant who caught me on a bad day, but I would try both those types of instances.

Edited by Nova

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Here is what I see right now as a problem:

1. The modified suggestion is nothing like the original posted suggestion. I've seen multiple people both here and ingame (and make note: none of them in channel 6) who would love the random factor and would try it in that scenario. But what will happen is, the modified suggestion gets put in, and people don't bother with it, and then you get angry that you put all this work in and people don't use it.

 

2. I personally would try the instance as proposed originally, short and random queue. I have NO interest in a long drawn out organized and planned version of what we already have in pk. It is a given that very quickly players will figure out which combinations for each instance level will produce a power-team. All the planning and strategy in the world won't make it any more fun to have to fight those teams every blasted time and lose. Even if there ended up being 2 or 3, that still is no fun. You can go get an easy death now by the same handful of people every time you walk into the map. Why code extra for more of the same?

 

Also I disagree with the assessment that people want the random queue because they're lazy. Reasons for wanting it have already been outlined in this thread and none of them imply lazy.

I agree 100%. It seems to me all that your doing now is making it to where you have to go to an npc to enter kf and you get a small reward in the end. That sucks imo, no different from whats already ingame.

 

Someone mentioned about teams dominating the pk instance. In my opinion, we have enough domination of pk by players as it is, why would we want this? It would be tons more fun to switch the teams up so everyone gets a chance to win. Don't make this a one sided instance from the start. Random queuing fixes this.

 

As I said before, if you wanted to mix the ideas where if a team wanted to go together, make it where the queue will sort all guild members into the same team. Everyone else is distributed evenly between the other teams. If you have to organize your own team, the only time anyone will ever use this is if their whole team is online. Whats the point of that? Make it where anytime anyone gets bored, they can random queue and go pk.

 

The only strategy that I would have in a 30-60 minute long pk instance is on how to not fall asleep at the computer O.o I have no desire to stay that long.

Edited by Kidberg

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Radu said (i'm paraphrasing here) he believes it will get used more by the existing playerbase if people can go with their friends (random queuing requires a bigger playerbase with more already-PK'ers).

 

From my experience in other games more strategy, competitiveness, and merciless smashing of opponents with friends = most fun. And I always thought PK in EL could be more than: go into PK map looking for enemies, see enemy, kill enemy.

 

One idea is to make regular competitions for the PvP Instance with fixtured fights on the weekends (to avoid time issues), with every team playing off in a knockout type format until there are two teams left to face off by the end of a few weeks. I think radu's Capture the Flag idea is awesome and would work with this, as different maps with different obstacles (e.g choke points for summons, cliffs for archers) can help with strategy and tactics. The weekdays in between could be used for planning, practice, gathering supplies, or whatever.

 

That goes without saying players could just do normal PvP Instances for fun or to practice with each other if they wanted to.

 

There could be some kind of a reward at the end for the team who wins the knockout competition. Players in the competition winning teams could get a special achievement too like 'Champions', 'Premiers', or something.

 

A bit of a deviation, sorry, but just a thought.

Edited by Sonny

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