Minerva Ownership

[XenaMT]

Disclaimer: I apologise in advance for the Tirun-like length, but I never thought I’d be using this section of forums.

 

As many of you have seen, I have begun playing EL again. I was playing another game and was reaching the endgame point where it was time to move on. I had played several other games since I left EL in April, but could never find the sense of community in any of them that I experienced in EL, a sentiment echoed by many players who return to these lands.

 

July ’09: Fatboyjaxx gives me the bot Minerva with no provisos or stipulations, and indirectly, control of our old shared guild AoI (as Minerva is the rank 20) and he liquidates his storage as he is leaving EL. His girlfriend ezmerelda had already stopped playing, and the other main AoIer who had anything to do with Minerva, Cruella, had long since stopped as well. Other than that, it was a dead guild. I gladly took over as I had no RL-$$ to spend to fund my own bot.

 

April ’10: I decide to leave EL for an unspecified time as well. However, I don’t get rid of Minerva, because I feel I will return one day.

 

May or June ’10 (can’t recall exactly): I log on and empty Minerva for safety. I fear with me not around she is especially vulnerable to hackers.

 

mid-Dec ’10: after logging on several times over the previous couple months, I log on again. I PM Minerva to see if she had been locked yet (she was due for renewal in late Sept or early Oct, but Radu often lets it slide for a month or 2). To my surprise, she’s not only not locked, she’s stocked up as well. Shortly after, I get a PM from Cruella saying she had renewed Minerva at the beginning of December and was running her again. I was shocked and unimpressed. She told me that she, fatboy and ez had all recently returned. She said that fbj had tried to get a hold of me. I check my Yahoo (which I rarely check) to see if I had an email from fatboy. Nothing. I didn’t have a Gossip message. I didn’t have a forum PM. I wonder how exactly contact was attempted to be made? Shout out in local chat at VOTD sto and pray I heard?

 

Day or 2 later: I log on again when I check Players Online page and see fatboy online. We chat awhile. I’m Buddhist irl, and very non-confrontational, so I try to be very pacific as we talk. After all, we’re old guildies and friends, and since I haven’t commited to playing full-time yet, I feel it would be uncool of me to force the situation yet. We agree to jointly run Minerva and if and when I decide I want to run her again solo, they would use the gc and items from her to get another bot. As a show of good faith, I deposit 1.4 million gc back on Minerva a couple days later (she had 1.3 mill gc or so when I took ownership)

 

January 6th ’11: I start playing again. I don’t use Minerva for the first 2 weeks or so I play – I’m out of touch with prices, and unsure of what I’m doing again, what kind of projects I want to focus on, etc. I just want to get my feet again, so to speak.

 

January 21st: I PM fbj again, and mention that now I’m settled again, I’d like to take over Minerva again as we discussed and fbj himself suggested in December (I do too many skills in the game to have a 4-way share be practical). At this point, fbj says that they are not prepared to give Minerva up, despite what he had said previously. He indicates I should just get my own bot, as it’s easy with Dogbreath’s service, etc etc. A short while later I log off for the evening.

 

January 22nd: I log on in the morning, and lo and behold, they have taken me off of Minerva’s admin and I can’t access her anymore. Again, no Gossip, no forum PM… nothing. Maybe they thought I would do to them what they so callously did to me? Sad that people think so little of my honesty. I could have done that at any point since mid-Dec if I so chose, but did not.

 

That brings us up to today. As of yet, I still have heard nothing. No doubt they have been waiting for me to post here and are waiting to present their side of the argument. Let me say that I understand where they are coming from: they have some history with Minerva. She was bought and paid for from funds raised through guild projects, blessing and all. Fatboy even hosted Minerva for awhile before the Dogbreath free service came along. Cruella ran Min when fbj and ez weren’t really playing all that much, when AoI was in decline. And they are 3 old players from the same old guild (they never even returned to the old guild mind you, just went straight to Nano – they just want the guild’s old bot). I understand all that. But Minerva was given to me, and I’ll say it again, with NO provisos or stipulations. She was registered in my name, I paid for her year out of my own pocket. And even if I was not in the game for awhile when they came back… so what? What is the statute of limitations on ownership? I had control of Min for just shy of 1.5 YEARS. If they had come back after a couple months, I would have had no problem with giving her back, but one and a half years? Come on. If Eviljoe somehow got unbanned and came back, would he expect to have Tina, etc back? I seriously doubt it.

The only real mistake I made was to leave these folk on the admin and not change the password, which out of laziness, a sense of courtesy or nostalgia, I didn’t do. It’s like a guy gets a job that requires him to move overseas, so he gives his friend his old car. Friend registers the car, insures it for the year, etc. then he decides to go travelling for awhile, so he parks it at his parent’s house. Original owner moves back to home country, finds the friend gone, but sees the car parked at friend’s parent’s place. Luckily he still has a set of keys, so after talking to the parents (in this case, Radu) just takes it.

Fatboy said it was easy to start up and get a bot going… that’s great to hear. Why not just do it then? I’m not the computer savvy guy that he is, undoubtedly it would be much simpler for him. And I doubt getting a bot together with 3 gainfully employed people would be much of a challenge either. I even offered ALL the gc from before (which is still on her) and would throw in some items. I even offered to Western Union or PayPal Cruella the $$ for the entire year, even if I wouldn’t use the bot for the whole time.

I loved having Minerva - made my game-play fun again. I’m locked out now and I don’t expect much to come of posting this. I waited some time to gather my thoughts and not speak out rashly. I just needed to get this off my chest. This isn’t the wonderful community/spirit I remember when I decided to come back. At worst, it’s an out-and-out theft, at best it’s a very shabby thing to do to an old friend. I guess might (3 of them) makes right. Here are some screenies to have a look at if you haven’t gone cross-eyed yet from reading all this….

 

 

Peace… Xena

 

DecemberChat1

 

DecemberChat2

 

January21screenie

 

January21screenie2

 

January21screenie3

 

January21screenie4

[Entropy]

Your problem is here:

July ’09: Fatboyjaxx gives me the bot Minerva with no provisos or stipulations

That means, he can take it back whenever he wants to.

[korrode]

Sorry Xena but as you said:

The only real mistake I made was to leave these folk on the admin and not change the password, which out of laziness, a sense of courtesy or nostalgia, I didn’t do.

They had access to the admin panel, the password for the bot... you should have changed it to protect your ownership. It's the same as buying an established house and not getting the locks changed, it's risky.

 

I see why you're annoyed but can't offer too much sympathy, however if you do have any complications setting up a new bot let me know as i'd be happy to help if i can.

[XenaMT]

That means, he can take it back whenever he wants to.

 

huh?

[Cruella]

The bot Minerva has been bought by the AoI guild before XenaMT and I joined the guild.

 

70% of the work in the project that resulted in purchase has been done by two players - EvilMangoPie and FatboyJaxx.

 

XenaMT has joined when the bot was in place, and left AoI without any claims to the bot.

 

FatboyJaxx was AoI GM and Minerva's "owner" - by unanuimous decision of all guildies.

 

When FatboyJaxx has decided to stop playing EL, I became responsible for both AoI and Minerva. I've been running both the guild and the bot for several months, until I've decided to take a break.

 

Since both FatboyJaxx, Ezmerelda, EvilMangoPie and me decided to return to the game, we understand Minerva is still a property of FatboyJaxx and former AoI guildies. Since we are all in Nano, Minerva will follow us to Nano.

 

In my undestanding Minerva has NEVER been given to Xena, Xena was just allowed to use her during FatboyJaxx's (and other AoI members) absence. FatboyJaxx was always a main holder of both Minerva's hosting and Minerva's EL account login credentials, so saying that not changing passwords was a mistake is quite suprising, since in my understanding changing them would have had to be treated as attempt to steal the bot from legitimate owner.

[Sonic]

No matter how I look at it I cannot imagine how you think you(XenaMT) are entitled to this bot. But lets go through this in a logical, objective and orderly fashion.[points 1 & 2]

 

[1]:The purpose of Minerva was to serve a group of players needs. A tradebot for AoI(or to be more accurate in current times, a group of players from the guild which is now inactive[read: jaxx, crue, ez, yourself, myself, evilmangopie...pretty much any old AoI)].However Evil and I probably account for less than 1% in terms of usage, we have little need for it. As I see it, there was no conflict with the aim of the asset until you decided you had too many skills for the bot and demanded it ALL to yourself. Years of sharing precedent (granted, people fade-in and fade-out of EL in various degrees of [in]activity).

 

Recap:

• Sharing is the policy.
  
• Time passes.
  
• Summary[xenamt]: I want the bot for myself, I simply have to many skills to share it with anyone.
  
• Summary[others]: They also have diverse skill sets(which is nothing new since the inception of Minerva). However these people want to continue in the sharing fashion.
  

 

Judgement: The objective/aim is most suited for [others] where sharing is the standard.

 

[2]: Ownership.

 

• Jaxx and Evil are majority shareholders in terms of initial capital invested.(extensive logs of this are on hand)
  
• Or...who has the User and Pass. Afaik Jaxx/evil/crue have this. In terms of EL rules they are owners of the character.
  
• "NO provisos or stipulations" - Seems like people can do what ever the hell they want, there are no restraints/clauses/conditions on what they can do.
  

 

Judgement: Yes, sometimes Minerva has a sole caretaker/janitor due to others inactivity, but with regards to ownership.. The ownership in my eyes rests with either Jaxx/ez/crue/evil or all of them together (as is the current situation after xena is excluded for being unable to share).

 

[3]: Some personal opinion and notes.

 

You raise a lot of irrelevant propaganda.

I never thought I’d be using this section of forums.

huh?

I wonder how exactly contact was attempted to be made? Shout out in local chat at VOTD sto and pray I heard?

I helped in that search for you, we asked in-game for your email(which you say you rarely check anyway) but nobody had some way to contact you. You were 100% inactive since my return, forum PM was considered, but in space of 2-3 days where payment was needed, this was most likely ruled out as an effective way to catch you. If my harddrive had not crashed I could go back in my logs a few months and pull a list of Italians and others who I personally sought to find your contact details.

 

This is an absolute slap in the face to ez, jaxx and crue..with such loaded statements. You are an English teacher after all,you know what you are saying, so it is clearly intentional. To what extent? Idk. Maybe you know you have lost the chance to be a part of Minerva now, and want to tarnish its reputation as one last kick in the ribs.

 

And they are 3 old players from the same old guild (they never even returned to the old guild mind you, just went straight to Nano – they just want the guild’s old bot).

I'm not entirely sure what your intention is with this. You yourself were out of guild / in other guilds as well. Why is it brought up in such a snide manner?

 

Lastly: As I said in the beginning, I use the bot (with ez/jaxx/crue managing the details) rarely, im not a mixer, but sometimes i want to sell a stone I found or a drop i was lucky enough to find. They do this because I'm an old AoI (no claim to the bot at all) and friend, yet they will try to find a spare slot for me to use if I ask. That is the spirit it is currently operated under, as well as outlining the quality of people who currently/now maintain this asset.

 

 

~Ex-AOI, cute gnome, self-proclaimed sexah detective, observer-of-drama and current Nano GM.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Frost

[Raz]

Your problem is here:

July ’09: Fatboyjaxx gives me the bot Minerva with no provisos or stipulations

That means, he can take it back whenever he wants to.

I would say otherwise - an unconditional gift is unconditional....

[forever]

Your problem is here:

July ’09: Fatboyjaxx gives me the bot Minerva with no provisos or stipulations

That means, he can take it back whenever he wants to.

I would say otherwise - an unconditional gift is unconditional....

 

Based on my readings, the bot never solely belonged to him to begin with. It was a joint bot and should be treated as such. 1 person can't give away something 6 people put effort/time/money/whatever in.

 

#edit

 

I know i said 6 people. Exaggerated and such. Point still proven.

Edited January 24, 2011 by forever

[Cruella]

Your problem is here:

July ’09: Fatboyjaxx gives me the bot Minerva with no provisos or stipulations

That means, he can take it back whenever he wants to.

I would say otherwise - an unconditional gift is unconditional....

 

Was it a gift, or was it permission to use for the time of FBJ's (and other AoI members) absence?

 

I'll stop discussing this part, FatboyJaxx is an appropriate person to do so.

 

Just one comment on another topic:

 

I deposit 1.4 million gc back on Minerva a couple days later (she had 1.3 mill gc or so when I took ownership)

 

Just to clarify, gold coins held by Minerva were always considered to be "AoI stash".

 

On a day you took sole ownership of the bot:

 

a/ you were not a member of AoI (you left the guild many months earlier), so your rights to the stash share have expired

 

b/ you forgot to tell about value of items on the bot (including some removal stones etc), approximately at least 500 kgc of value at that time, which makes a total value of AoI stash equal to at least 1.8 million gc's year ago

 

c/ you have withdrawn 6 million gc's from Minerva over the course of sole ownership, you've put a total of 300 kgc on her, recently you have returned 1.4 million - that means for a one time yearly reneval fee of 20$ you have made 4.3 million gc of income, which makes up for financial claims I suppose (this is just result of gc flow analysis, the total would be much higher if we analyze items flow)

 

The only reason I publish these figures is that you are trying to create an impression of your generosity and being ripped off.

 

We appreciate that you've returned AoI stash, we do not want to go into details and calculations, however please do not play a person being ripped off by FatboyJaxx, me or any other AoI member, since it is simply not the case.

 

As you perfectly know, over the years various AoI people were paying Radu for Minerva reneval, whether they have been directly using the bot or not. You are just first one who thinks such payment gives the rights to sole ownership.

 

We have been trying to be polite and friendly, despite of your attitude. You will surely confirm that upon your recent return to the game I have set you up with shared access to Minerva, you however haven't even bother to answer pm's when I was informing you about that. We have even offered you to use Minerva's gc's to buy a bot for you, for your sole use (!), but apparently none of our good will gestures have been accepted. In a light of such circumstances I'm not surprised FBJ considered discussion being over.

 

At worst, it’s an out-and-out theft

 

No comments.

[groomsh]

July ’09: Fatboyjaxx gives me the bot Minerva with no provisos or stipulations, and indirectly, control of our old shared guild AoI (as Minerva is the rank 20) and he liquidates his storage as he is leaving EL. His girlfriend ezmerelda had already stopped playing, and the other main AoIer who had anything to do with Minerva, Cruella, had long since stopped as well. Other than that, it was a dead guild. I gladly took over as I had no RL-$$ to spend to fund my own bot.

Well considering this, i'd think that at least some word(s) to Xena would have been nice prior to making such changes.

I know Xena good enough to say it's a VERY HONEST person.

 

What would really be interesting to know, how have you tried to reach Xena ?

[FatboyJaxx]

Well I guess it's time for me to reply. I'm going to try and keep this relatively short and just make a few points which I think are most relevent.

 

July ’09: Fatboyjaxx gives me the bot Minerva with no provisos or stipulations, and indirectly, control of our old shared guild AoI (as Minerva is the rank 20) and he liquidates his storage as he is leaving EL

 

1. When I passed you ownership I said "I doubt I will ever be back back but if myself or any other AoI do return we'd like to have access to her". You say otherwise. On this point it is my word against yours afaik neither of us have logs going back this far. Regardless of this, it was AoI guild bot, I would have had no right to speak for everyone else and give you sole ownership.

 

2. When we returned we offered to have shared ownership with you which you threw back in our faces basically saying some bullshit about "I have too many skills to share with other people". Considering this bot has always been a shared bot I think you're incredibly selfish to think you have any entitlement to sole ownership.

 

3. We offered to buy you another bot with money from Minerva's stash which was a very generous offer imo but that also wasn't good enough for you. However, after looking through years of minervas trade log you have already had many millions of gc from her which covers enough to buy several bots for yourself. Also, I find the whole "Oh it would be so much easier for you 3 people with jobs to get another bot between you" laughable. Besides the previously mentioned money you've obtained from Minerva through trades there were also a lot of items on her when we left including nexus removals and tons of bindings etc and if I refer people to http://s1.zetaboards.com/Unofficial_EL_Forums/topic/2307156/1/ you will see that xena's EL life is far from fiscally challenged.

 

4. We could also go through who actually paid the majority of the money for minerva's blessing and the 3 out of 4 years you didn't pay for. Most of this was paid for from AoI guild funds which i have spreadsheets for that detail every transaction and show quite clearly that you didn't contribute to the guild funds until after Minerva was originally purchased and blessed. 70% of this contribution was myself and evilmangopie. Here are the spreadsheets: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AiEut5y8q5LFcGFpLTBwUkVTVl8xbWR2c3lSLUJiRnc&gid=3 the oldest projects on the right and the newest on the left, minerva was purchased immediately after the 4k moon meds project.

 

 

Finally, I'm glad this has come out into the open so people can see what a selfish asshole you really are. We were friends for many years and I never expected you to come along and try to claim something that many people have worked on as solely your own. Currently there are 6 people from AoI guild playing, 5 of them are in the same guild and want to continue sharing her and 1 person (you) wants to take her for yourself.

 

Also, since we should probably cover the actual El rules rather that just who said this and that and what is fair. We have held the Minerva EL account password since she was created and you only held it for about a year at which point we still had the password. Currently the only people with the password to her account are myself and Cru which makes us owners of the character.

 

I guess it all boils down to my 1st point and what was said when it was passed to you which we are are in disagreement about and since there are no logs it's your word against mine.

 

So much for keeping this post short....

[FatboyJaxx]

What would really be interesting to know, how have you tried to reach Xena ?

 

I helped in that search for you, we asked in-game for your email(which you say you rarely check anyway) but nobody had some way to contact you. You were 100% inactive since my return, forum PM was considered, but in space of 2-3 days where payment was needed, this was most likely ruled out as an effective way to catch you. If my harddrive had not crashed I could go back in my logs a few months and pull a list of Italians and others who I personally sought to find your contact details.

 

This is an absolute slap in the face to ez, jaxx and crue..with such loaded statements. You are an English teacher after all,you know what you are saying, so it is clearly intentional. To what extent? Idk. Maybe you know you have lost the chance to be a part of Minerva now, and want to tarnish its reputation as one last kick in the ribs.

[korrode]

so saying that not changing passwords was a mistake is quite suprising, since in my understanding changing them would have had to be treated as attempt to steal the bot from legitimate owner.

The bot hosting software should provide functionality so that the "real owner" can allow others full administrative trading functions whilst protecting ownership (i.e. no ability to change the password, no "say"/"#say" style commands accessible). I don't know if DB's service provides such functionality, if it doesn't then perhaps the feature(s) should be requested or you should change bot hosts, if it does then no one ever has anything to complain about; the true owner would have to very knowingly relinquish ownership to lose the bot.

 

 

Was it a gift, or was it permission to use for the time of FBJ's (and other AoI members) absence?

That really is the question. Without a log of the conversation(s) it's hard to form a (personal) judgement.

"It's unconditionally yours" and "You can use it unconditionally" ...similar in wording but so different in meaning... which is why the software should be used to keep things black and white.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Korrode

[Cruella]

The bot hosting software should provide functionality so that the "real owner" can allow others full administrative trading functionality whilst protecting ownership (i.e. no ability to change the password, no "say"/"#say" style commands accessible). I don't know if DB's service provides such functionality, if it doesn't then perhaps the feature(s) should be requested or you should change bot hosts, if it does then no one ever has anything to complain about; the true owner would have to very knowingly relinquish ownership to lose the bot.

 

The thing is we had so much trust in all AoI long time members including XenaMT that we have never thought such precautions could have been necessary. We have simply never thought someone might make a claim of being the sole owner of the bot shared successfully for years, without the slightest issues. We were naive, lesson learnt.

[korrode]

Err i just remembered that changing the password requires knowledge of the current password, so really if you all (incl. XenaMT) knew the password, then ya there's the lesson.

 

@FBJ

If currently you're not the only person with knowledge of the bot's password, maybe you should change it.

[Cruella]

@FBJ

If currently you're not the only person with knowledge of the bot's password, maybe you should change it.

 

I have nothing against that, never claimed bot sole ownership and never will, despite of paying for her yearly fee recently.

[FatboyJaxx]

Err i just remembered that changing the password requires knowledge of the current password, so really if you all (incl. XenaMT) knew the password, then ya there's the lesson.

 

@FBJ

If currently you're not the only person with knowledge of the bot's password, maybe you should change it.

 

 

At the moment only me and Cruella have the password and I'm happy with that. I trust Cruella implicitly.

[Nova]

@ korr. don't hop on them too much about trusting their guild. We know how that can go sometimes. No opinion on anything else in this thread. sticky situation. i hope you can all work it out and stay friends.

[korrode]

@ korr. don't hop on them too much about trusting their guild. We know how that can go sometimes.

Indeed.

I should have worded some of what I said as general observations and less directed. The people involved in this are long time friends or acquaintances and i believe they're all pretty trustworthy people, I can see why they would have no problems with each other having top level admin access to the bot.

 

My main point is that restricting access to passwords and high-admin stuff that won't even affect friends/guildies intended usage of ones bot isn't a bad idea, because you just never know how things will go. A point I make largely due to what you're referring to.

[STAnGE]

Share the money, then kill the bot.

[Garnoo]

I, Garnoo, member of guild CA$H, previous member of guild AoI would like to make the following statements:

 

-During my short period as a member of guild AoI I witnessed evilmangopie's departure from the eternal lands. Before leaving he (evilmangopie) left me and other active AoI members part of his treasure. My share looked like this: 20.000 silver ores, many insignificant items and 2,7341% share to the bot named Minerva.

 

-Since my logs were lost during a terrible and unforgiving battle with an army of viruses which managed to gravely wound my OS and since evilmangopie's lawyer lost his client's testament I have no way to prove my claim to the bot. It is my word against anyone who dares say I'm lying.

 

-With my last two points I made it clear that at the time when FatBoyJaxx gave XenaMT ownership of the bot I had roughly 2,73% more claims to the bot than him/her (XenaMT) and any other active player which leads me to the following statement:

 

-I should have been the one to receive ownership of Minerva during the absence of FatBoyJaxx.

 

-Since the mistake has already been made and cannot be undone XenaMT is a bigger share holder than I.

 

-In any case I would like this wrong to be corrected and justice to be done!

 

-Having posted this I demand 3 million gold coins (from the ones obtained while I should have had control of the bot) from XenaMT as compensation. The rest of the money I would like to leave to him/her out of the kindness of my heart. The gc I leave to him/her should also be enough to cover the cost of running the bot so XenaMT will have no reason to be upset after this affair is over.

 

-As a last note I would like to say that I'm willing (again-out of the kindness of my heart) to negotiate with FatBoyJaxx and the Nano guild a price for my shares. (Attention!: This negotiation will only take place after I receive my rightful 4 million gold coins from XenaMT. I take this measure of precaution so that there is no confusion about the rights to the 4 million gold coins.)

 

Thank you for your time!

[evilmangopie]

Not a great deal I can add to this thread, my guildies have said most everything. Just a few things I would like to consolidate on.

 

Firstly, Minerva was bought by the guild AoI from funds raised through various guild projects, before XenaMT had joined. The majority of the funds from these projects (~70%+) were from mine and fatboyjaxx's work (We have spreadsheets etc. for exact amounts). All of us have taken periods of leave from the game at one point or another, and when that happened we agreed those who remained would run it until the others came back and it could be a shared venture again. The whole aim for Minerva was for it to be a guild bot, if a guildie had something they wanted to sell/buy, then we could put that on Minerva.

Regarding us not returning to AoI, on my part that was because you had changed the name, info etc. of the guild. I typed #guild_info AoI and did not see the same name etc., I assumed Xena had just kept the tag, but made a new guild. Iirc it became "Antiguildies of indifference" and in the guild info it suggested it was not a real guild and was for Xena to AFK, not exactly how I remember Ancients Of Irilion

 

Some important points:

 

• Many members of AoI have contributed to Minerva (from the old projects to recent fees etc.). XenaMT was by no means the major contributer.
  
• Minerva was always intended to be a bot for the guild of AoI, that all could use and benefit from. Although it was managed by a few, it belonged to AoI.
  
• Minerva was never given to XenaMT, instead we trusted him to look after it, and based on his recent behavior, his greed caused him to abuse this trust.
  
• After some time many of us from AoI have returned to the game, and wanted to use Minerva as she had been used before, a shared venture. XenaMT did not agree to this and felt that he deserved the bot to himself, for some reason
  

 

To be honest, I am really sad that it has come to this. It marks the old days of our guild being a group of comrades through thick and thin being ended. Hopefully, this can be resolved easily, although that is looking to be increasingly unlikely.

 

evilmangopie, founder of AoI, all those years ago <3