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makuyi

skipping school

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fair enough. i'd prefer to live in a world that contains people who would inform on my own children playing truant, but accept the fact that there will be those who won't. vive la difference eh?

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You throw terms around such as "the moral good" and "our moral obligations" and "my moral duty", etc.

 

You can decide for yourself what is morally right or wrong, but you have no authority to decide for me or others. You of course are within your rights to judge others accordingly.

 

And I'm pretty sure you do not understand my point at all.

Oh well.

 

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."--Benjamin Franklin

 

Slippery slope.

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Morale is a point of everyone's perspective (whether you like it or not)

 

Laws or rights are not, they are bound by written paragraphs and enforced by courts (whether you like it or not)

 

Road to hell is paved with good intentions. You cannot put subjective morale above law or one's rights. Or you can, but face the consequences of breaking the law or rights then...

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You throw terms around such as "the moral good" and "our moral obligations" and "my moral duty", etc.

 

You can decide for yourself what is morally right or wrong, but you have no authority to decide for me or others. You of course are within your rights to judge others accordingly.

 

And I'm pretty sure you do not understand my point at all.

Oh well.

 

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."--Benjamin Franklin

 

Slippery slope.

Easy there, I never implied or made pretensions to any form of authority. If anything, I said I didnt envy you of yours?

 

And I do see your point. And understood it. I do not throw around these terms arbitrarily either, I am a parent and my role has a responsibility inherent within it. Just because I would prefer a world whereby ALL adults showed this responsibility towards minors should not make me a target, particularly when I am showing empathy for those who, like you, have a job that will at some point give a conflict between moral and ethical decision making.

 

And as for quotes:

 

"For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing."

Simon Wiesenthal

 

Now, since I have already been responsible for derailing the topic widely, and am in great danger of "sliding a slippery slope" to becoming a troll here, I am gonna just stop at this post on this thread, it's already gone past the point I should have had the sense to stop myself hitting reply.

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Easy there, I never implied or made pretensions to any form of authority. If anything, I said I didnt envy you of yours?
You misunderstand my use of the word "authority". Not authority in these forums, but authority in life, in judgement, in a higher realm, determining what constitutes moral behavior and what does not.

 

And I do see your point. And understood it. I do not throw around these terms arbitrarily either, I am a parent and my role has a responsibility inherent within it. Just because I would prefer a world whereby ALL adults showed this responsibility towards minors should not make me a target, particularly when I am showing empathy for those who, like you, have a job that will at some point give a conflict between moral and ethical decision making.
I am a parent as well with responsibility. It's somewhat amusing that you are both implying my lack of responsibility AND presuming to assign appropriate responsibility based on your decision of what that responsibility should be. I have no lack of responsibility to minors, mine or anyone else's. I will absolutely unconditionally help any minor in need of it. My "job" here will never place me in a position to be forced to make a choice between right and wrong, morally or legally. Nor do I need a lecture as to what IS right and wrong.

 

And as for quotes:

 

"For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing."

Simon Wiesenthal

I"m curious where you found me say I do nothing. ;) (Just another example of how you not only did not pay attention to what you read, but did not understand it either.)

 

Please do not try to accuse anyone of making you a target. You are the one who jumped into this thread bemoaning the fact that there are people like me in this world who do not have your stellar moral fiber.

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The only reason his school was contacted was because someone didn't have a life of their own and constantly picks on people on the internet ;) WHY... I would never think of doing something like that,, its just plain weird.

Just my opinion

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Easy there, I never implied or made pretensions to any form of authority. If anything, I said I didnt envy you of yours?
You misunderstand my use of the word "authority". Not authority in these forums, but authority in life, in judgement, in a higher realm, determining what constitutes moral behavior and what does not.

 

So you're now saying I have no authority in life, judgement, or in a higher realm...? Bit of a personal observation, isn't it? Feel free to provide evidence on my lack of authority for my own opinion, which is, after all, what I have been posting here. No wait, don't bother, I just realised, I have absolutely no counter evidence. Point to you on that one.

 

And I do see your point. And understood it. I do not throw around these terms arbitrarily either, I am a parent and my role has a responsibility inherent within it. Just because I would prefer a world whereby ALL adults showed this responsibility towards minors should not make me a target, particularly when I am showing empathy for those who, like you, have a job that will at some point give a conflict between moral and ethical decision making.
I am a parent as well with responsibility. It's somewhat amusing that you are both implying my lack of responsibility AND presuming to assign appropriate responsibility based on your decision of what that responsibility should be. I have no lack of responsibility to minors, mine or anyone else's.
Actually, I implied no such thing, with regards YOUR responsibility nor assigning said appropriate responsibility TO YOU based on my own musings of morality. *See below for why that is the case*

 

I will absolutely unconditionally help any minor in need of it. My "job" here will never place me in a position to be forced to make a choice between right and wrong, morally or legally. Nor do I need a lecture as to what IS right and wrong.

 

Glad to hear that you would help any minor in need of it, and since your job here will never place you in a position where there IS a conflict of morals vs ethical professional conduct, then clearly, that part in my post which refers to those in authority LIKE YOU, did not, in fact, INCLUDE YOU.

 

*NOTE: I think this is basically a human flaw in both of us aislinn, you and I have both read each others replies here and naturally, being human and subject to personal biase towards ourselves, assumed that we WERE who the other was directing the posts at. This is not the case with my posts, for instance, I count 11 times I said the word "I" and only two times I said the word "YOU". Out of those two times, only one was a reference to you. The other was a comparative to those who had a position of professional responsibility to protect personal data, like you yourself do. UNLIKE you however, since we have established above that this job for EL will NOT put you into a conflicting role, they WILL come across it, someone somewhere. My whole posting on this thread was an attempt to point out I..ME..personally, would prefer to see a world wherein it would be acceptable to allow (without penalty to the informer) a truant child to be informed upon. You have to remember, when deciphering this moutain of crap I posted in this thread, that I am self effacing and judging not you, but myself, when I use terms like "I am a parent" and wishing ALL adults (again, not you since you ARE one) had the same feelings of responsibility towards minors that parents (generally, not specifically) are held to have naturally.

 

 

 

And as for quotes:

 

"For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing."

Simon Wiesenthal

I"m curious where you found me say I do nothing. :P (Just another example of how you not only did not pay attention to what you read, but did not understand it either.)

 

Please do not try to accuse anyone of making you a target. You are the one who jumped into this thread bemoaning the fact that there are people like me in this world who do not have your stellar moral fiber.

Final note, this quote is again evidence of personal biased, it was not in fact aimed at you, so to satisfy your curiosty, here's what I meant by posting it...and to hopefully try to redress the widening gap of misunderstanding that appears to have occured:

 

If, using Makuyis example, we were to say that the minor in question was my own, I, as the parent, would welcome the moderator for that forum to inform on my child. (Yes I DO know that ISNT what happened, this is where I am having to use hypothesis to explain my reasoning). I would thank them for it. Not all people think like I do, I accept that. I wouldn't want people to see this post and suddenly decide to act differently because of it. I am just explaining I'd rather my kids data wasnt as 100% protected by the moderators in charge in this particular instance than them sit back like some jobsworth and say "hey, privacy laws, not our problem, you sort your shit out, we're nothing to do with it".

 

THAT is where my quote comes into play. It wasnt directed at YOU at all, Aislinn, and if you for even a moment thought it was then I owe you an apology. Sincerely, I'm sorry for not wording it better and giving you that impression, it was NOT my intention.

 

Nor was I moaning that there are people like you in this world, since you clearly arent part of the problem I am outlining, you have already stated you would do anything to help a minor in trouble. But from the point of view of those who, from a professional and ethical point of view, would rather sit on knowledge that could lead to truancy being stopped, instead of breaking their ethical code, I would just rather that did not happen. That's why I'd rather see morals, in certain cases, outweigh ethics. NOT 100% of the time, not a complete breakdown in data protection or privacy. JUST where it IS morally the right thing to do.

 

And before anyone just jumps in with that previous arguement about "How would you like it if someone told your boss "etc etc, well...

 

There is a world of difference between:

1. An employee sneaking games/forums time at work, where he potentially is risking his own job by doing so, if it is outside of breaks or any other time he wouldnt be allowed to do so. He is, after all, an adult and is supposed to be aware of his responsibilities for his own actions. Plus, any boss worth his salt shouldnt need informing, drops in productivity, KPI's and communication with the IT dept would tell him if something's amiss.

 

and..

 

2. A minor who acted on impulse, whose parents are NOT aware of his truancy, whose parents could, in some countries (like here in the UK for example) face fines/jail/criminal charges for that truancy.

 

I know so far I have been arguing that Moral VS Ethics have been the whole issue, but it's also worth mentioning that, when a moderator, "if the issue ever arose", quotes chapter and verse of data protection & privacy laws as a reason for not informing a school of absenteeism, they ARE in fact aiding and abetting the breaking of Educational Laws. Parents are held accountable, as I am sure you will be aware, so the consequences for not informing, even though it's ethically the professional thing to do, are something any moderator should consider carefully, if they ever find themselves in that same position.

 

 

Summary:

 

I've attempted to stay away from this topic after my last post, but felt I could not leave it open with your curiosity unresolved, and my own attempts at explaining what I meant so misworded that they left you with the impression that I was targetting you as "the root of all evil". If you still have that impression, grab a cup of coffee, reread it all, and TRY to think of this as just a guy trying to explain his way of looking at things, NOT as a guy who is out to change other peoples way of doing things. You are too sly an antagonist to even attempt trying to get you to change your mind on what you'd do in a given situation, Aisy, and WAY more cynical than I could ever hope to persuade by mere text. I too am cynical though, and KNOW that somewhere out there, some mod WILL be in that situation whereby they could do the RIGHT thing morally, even if it's the WRONG thing ethically, but they wont. That is anathema to me. Simple as that.

 

Now, I hope this explains what I was feebly attempting to say, without further disagreement to my saying it, however, since I figure it wont be liked by everyone, I will end by asking anyone who disagrees, lets agree to that. Disagreeing.

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I know so far I have been arguing that Moral VS Ethics have been the whole issue

You continue to assert that there's universal agreement on the 'correct' morals for the situation and that law or professional ethics are the only places reasoning for non-disclosure of private data to 3rd parties comes from.

 

Myself, and many other people in this world, especially I.T. professionals* (system admins and such) that often have access to and responsibility for systems that hold private/personal data, do not consider protection of personal data simply a professional ethic that we follow due to the law or written regulations for our position.

 

I consider it immoral to disclose to 3rd parties non-public, personal data that I only have access to due to a position of administration.

I look with disgust at anyone who does such a thing in the same way I would look upon a violent criminal.

That's my personal view.

 

I accept that people have different views on what's ultimately right and wrong, and thus any given moral ideal is not necessarily universal.

For you, me and many other people there's clarity in our minds on what is morally right and wrong for this situation (whichever side of the debate that may be).

For many other people it's not as clear, Aislinn perhaps is such a person:

Interesting moral dilemma really.

 

The point of all this is that I think you believe that everyone in the world believes it's morally right for a forum moderator/admin to report information about a truant child to a school, and that we only argue against that on an ethical ground... but this is not the case.

 

Khalai already said it:

Morale is a point of everyone's perspective (whether you like it or not)

Just seemed like it needed reiteration. :P

 

EDIT:

* I, of course, am not speaking for every I.T. admin on the planet. I know (first hand) that there's some that don't share my moral view... but I know (also first hand) there's many that do share it. I meet more that do than I meet that don't.

Edited by Korrode

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I think, as a student as well, that the kid had an obligation to attend the school by being enrolled in the school. Its his fault for trying to skip out on an obligation. In my opinion, the person who reported him had the moral sense to do so to show the kid that there are consequences for your actions, which is a life lesson people need to learn. (So many of my peers seem to not realize that.)

 

Who decides Whats right and whats wrong? That question always comes up, and I always say- Whoever has the other's best interests in mind. Honestly. If it will help them in life without harming others, I think its right. In the long-run, not short term. If it helps, it is very likely to hurt short-term :fire: Much like teaching the man to fish instead of giving him a fish. He will go on being hungry for a little longer (short term pain) but will come out knowing how to provide for himself even after you leave.

(I believe this to an extent.. If it's trying to completely change who they are and how they act, then... no.. There are always exceptions which we must be open to...)

 

I'm a firm believer in "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." While I will say that in the kid's situation, I would HATE the person who reported me short-term, in the long run I would look back and thank them for keeping me on-track (On track meaning teaching or restating a much needed life lesson)

 

(I mentioned life lessons above. By that I mean a way of interacting with people in our world that is widely accepted and requested and will keep you "in good terms" with everyone or bring long-term rewards. For instance, in school if I turn in an assignment late, I get points deducted from my grade. In the real world, if I turn a project in late to my boss, I can have money deducted from my salary or be fired and lose income. That lost money could have gone towards food, clothes, shelter, etc... and I could potentially starve if turning things in late is a constant habit.)

 

 

That's my word on it... :P

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For many other people it's not as clear, Aislinn perhaps is such a person:
Interesting moral dilemma really.

Sorry for not being clear, I wasn't referring to this specific case with that observation but the issue in general, and about everyone's take on it... not just mine. And we do have an interesting conversation going, wouldn't you say? :D (I am very clear fyi)

In this specific case example, I have stated I would personally talk to the person in an attempt to accomplish the same goal.

As I've also stated, if I felt there was serious danger involved (life death situations), I would probably step in somehow.

However, in "simple" cases of "only" "breaking the law" (which would vary from state to state and country to country), does that mean the same person who is morally obligated to report in minors skipping school, is also obligated to report any other "crime" they see posted? Drugs, underage drinking, real life threats, etc? Those sort of posts run rampant as well. Where is the morality then? If you are morally obligated for one, you should be morally obligated for all. If you are not an admin, do you hound the admins to act or for the information when you see these posts? It would be the morally right thing to do then, would it not, if you were inclined that way?

Where does it end? Online police and Big Brother?

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That made me "LOLz".. Someone turned in a kid for skipping school tryn to find help to come up w/ a better excuse to tell his teacher. lolz..

 

In all seriousness. I also think the admin that reported the student shouldn't have taken any steps further then speaking directly to the student. If not want drugs, bad words, skipping school in they're forums or etc. Then should make it a public rule or some bs and advise its users in a proper manner. Anything more then that is ridiculous. Same goes for the bs going around a while back where people were making blogs, and employers were firing the employee's (blog writters) for bs that was stated or being talked about with in that individuals blog. These two topics work hand in hand.. I think both are bs. I think big brother needs to find something more important to do...

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Speaking as a parent, if my children skipped school, their heads would roll.
I think, as a student as well, that the kid had an obligation to attend the school by being enrolled in the school. Its his fault for trying to skip out on an obligation.

 

 

ouch, seems I had a really playful school time,

in high school I didn't attend about 25% of the classes (statistics were done every half a school year - and I wasn't ever number 1 in that list  :P )

 

 

I got a parental excuse to skip school every time I just used the phrase "I don't want to go today." or "There is no point of going today."

 

Why? Simple - because my grades were good and I never misbehaved while i skipped school - just had better things to do with my time than to sleep in classes

 

But maybe we just have a different school system in the country where I live and skipping some classes isn't such a big deal.

Or maybe it was just the fact that the school is in the country side not a city school.

Edited by zalic

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