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Even getting stupid players would be a start, the populous is too small and maybe a "dumbing down" is what it really needs. I mean, "20 or so maps" with 1-15 people on them when some of them are quite large maps isn't really exciting. And let's be honest, from a PKer perspective (yes I went there) some of the people that were in PK every day were as dumb as a door knob, but they still stimulated the economy, they made players have fun etc. The only time I found EL really any exciting, was the mass PvP you got in KF once every blue moon. I don't know about you but I don't think it's fun grinding away at the same mob for hours, or spending hours in front of an ore, or sitting in a storage for hours clicking to mix something. No game that I know of, requires you to spend weeks or months grinding the one mob to move to the next.

Edited by Sabbath

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And EL isn't a complex game, it's just badly documented, that way it is hard for a player to start with the game. After that all choices are kinda the same for everyone since there aren't too many builds that are useful in the game. Like for instance, that guy just had luck that he wanted to click on the unicorn flag, otherwise he would never have left IP. When he started walking in WS, he saw nothing else than trees and a walking path. How do you think people look to it the first time? The game should be way more exciting for new players. From the moment you leave IP it actually becomes pretty empty for a newbie.

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And EL isn't a complex game, it's just badly documented, that way it is hard for a player to start with the game.

I disagree.

 

However, I will agree that it's "badly documented" IF you expect everything to be done for you, no thinking required.

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Like for instance, that guy just had luck that he wanted to click on the unicorn flag, otherwise he would never have left IP.

AFAIK there is an NPC named Ios just standing right in front of that boat, giving all relevant information about using the boat.

He even warns players about watching out for gargs in the night time on WS.

 

So what?! The info IS there, just READ and USE it.

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And EL isn't a complex game, it's just badly documented, that way it is hard for a player to start with the game.

I disagree.

 

However, I will agree that it's "badly documented" IF you expect everything to be done for you, no thinking required.

 

 

Exactly, whats the point in playing a game if you got everything? I enjoy it as it is,,yes i get annoyed sometimes with stuff but is in any games after all. As a newbie you should ask for help and read the dam Tutorial NPC and stop bitching about it. He was complaining like a kid about not seeing it but he was just 2 steps away from it, come on !!! And he started his review by saying who made the game and next thing he is just next to radu, wtf :) ??? Can you ask for help if you think you cant manage? Plenty of players were near by..sure someone would anwer his call.

 

I was a newbie as well and learn how to travel, took me 5min to learn it how, took me another 10min to understand what continent 2 is :blush: etc etc but hey i am here and thanks to those who answered my questions i am still learning lots.

 

 

He is just passing by and not playing his 10min ..thats all i see in this video :D

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Even getting stupid players would be a start, the populous is too small and maybe a "dumbing down" is what it really needs. I mean, "20 or so maps" with 1-15 people on them when some of them are quite large maps isn't really exciting. And let's be honest, from a PKer perspective (yes I went there) some of the people that were in PK every day were as dumb as a door knob, but they still stimulated the economy, they made players have fun etc. The only time I found EL really any exciting, was the mass PvP you got in KF once every blue moon. I don't know about you but I don't think it's fun grinding away at the same mob for hours, or spending hours in front of an ore, or sitting in a storage for hours clicking to mix something. No game that I know of, requires you to spend weeks or months grinding the one mob to move to the next.

This.

 

...but of course we know EL is intentionally geared for a very niche type of MMORPG player.

IMO that's a bad thing, but I know in some other people's opinion it's a good thing.

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Attract 10 year olds like runescape does.. Make the game easy, proven concept :)

 

Serious, stating the obvious (like the example of the question mark) will get the attention of those who are not big readers and are not willing to read all those dialogs. So what if little kids are annoying? Their parents give them money and they buy stuffs and play games.

 

A step down may be a step in the right direction.

 

 

The grinding on one mob or ore is not unique to el... Although other games might have more different mobs that can be trained at the same levels.

Adding more variation by 'mutating' the mobs so that not every location holds the same looking monster (rocky maps may get grey wolves, woods a brown wolf etc.. nearly the same stats). Also adding 'boss' monsters that spawn amongs the normal mobs will make fighting more interesting (like the rare events make harvesting interesting).

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Hmmm....first impressions being wrong or clueless.....sounds about right to me. Sometimes people will totally misunderstand things on their first impressions. I have seen few newbs that understood EL very well at the start. Most of those are experienced with other MMORPG's and may even have kids. Only a few newbs under 18 seem to know about what they are doing when they first play.

 

As for calling the guy dumb or whatever for making a first impression video and getting alot of stuff wrong, why not wait till you read his article and Actual review and Then call him a dumbass if he proves to be. He may actually call Himself a dumbass for thinking this or that during his review. We won't know till we read it.

 

As for Radu at the beam, I hear "who is this Radu guy?" and "who is Entropy" and "This dude in the one channel called Radu is bossing me around. I think I will tell him to go F*** himself" from newbs once in a while. At that point, I have to let them in on the little secret of the game.....that the game owner actually shows up in it. Until Radu/Entropy has "(game owner)" next to his name on channels, local text and floating over his head, the newbs will Not know who on earth he is.

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That said, it is an insight into "average-joe-nub's" first impression of EL, and since he makes up like 70%+ of the MMO players out there, changes to the game to appease him are worth at least considering.

 

Really? I'd rather just take the 30% that are already appeased. It's not like we're talking about 30% of 50 people or anything, It's thousands. I think the pool is big enough as it is.

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That said, it is an insight into "average-joe-nub's" first impression of EL, and since he makes up like 70%+ of the MMO players out there, changes to the game to appease him are worth at least considering.

 

Really? I'd rather just take the 30% that are already appeased. It's not like we're talking about 30% of 50 people or anything, It's thousands. I think the pool is big enough as it is.

 

And herein lies the heart of the problem:

Do we want thousands of average-joe-nubs in the game and by necessity dumb down EL into a different game?

 

Or do we want EL as we know it now for the most part, and keep the player base smaller and more ambitious?

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That said, it is an insight into "average-joe-nub's" first impression of EL, and since he makes up like 70%+ of the MMO players out there, changes to the game to appease him are worth at least considering.

 

Really? I'd rather just take the 30% that are already appeased. It's not like we're talking about 30% of 50 people or anything, It's thousands. I think the pool is big enough as it is.

Is it? Those 30% players may seem a large number but when you think about it....well... there are hundreds of mmorpgs so it is impossible to get all those 30% to play EL hence the really small community. One of the most important things you have to consider when making an mmorpg is that you don't have to force anyone to read novels. Those 70% players that don't read all the dialogues might not be the idiots you think they are. I happen to know quite a few (myself included) that tend to skip all the useless npc dialogue and just read the plain task and most of the times those are the guys that know most about game mechanics and that get to the top because they want action and let's face it: if someone wants to read a good story (s)he buys a damn book. Last time I checked people played games to be immersed into a story/to be part of it. And talking about action I agree that new players should see something more exciting. Why not put them in a newbie instance as soon as they enter the game. In that instance you can give them objectives and hand them some cool looking weapon and in the end have them fight a newbie dragon (which would look like one of the many dragons we have but with low stats) and after that drop them on IP and make up some reason to why they lost their power and cool looking weapon and cannot defeat dragons until they regain it.

 

@Aislinn: You could fairly well desing a sleek interface that has a medieval look. Here are some examples of medieval interfaces:

http://static.computergames.ro/cg/assassin...rchlight118.jpg

http://img709.imageshack.us/f/screen32p.jpg/

http://seniorgamer.files.wordpress.com/200...3interface4.jpg

 

They key of success is to be open-minded.

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Honestly it was a little frustrating to watch simply from the standpoint that it seemed the reviewer had to keep talking shit the entire time he was exploring EL. He couldn't stop to read & understand what the Tutorial NPC had to say b/c he has an audience he has to entertain. In that sense I don't think it's a realistic first impression. Most anyone else has the time to stop & read.

 

As far as players not wanting to read NPC dialog, that's fine - don't explore for NPCs or talk to NPCs. Use google or guild web sites or w/e other means to gain knowledge about the game once you have friends, but in any game that provides any semblance of a tutorial, there is some reading comprehension required and the newly updated tutorial in EL is pro.

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@Aislinn: You could fairly well desing a sleek interface that has a medieval look. Here are some examples of medieval interfaces:

http://static.computergames.ro/cg/assassin...rchlight118.jpg

http://img709.imageshack.us/f/screen32p.jpg/

http://seniorgamer.files.wordpress.com/200...3interface4.jpg

The first one looks tacky and cheap and gaudy.

Second one looks similar to what we have.

Third one is ok but what is the point really?

I can't imagine what's wrong with what we have...the windows move around, can be resized, can go transparent or not, and I much prefer the chat setup here than shows on any of your examples. We even have the option to choose how the chat shows up.

 

 

They key of success is to be open-minded.

Ahh but you are leaving out the most important thing: defining success in the first place.

And as we see, there are differing definitions.

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They key of success is to be open-minded.

Ahh but you are leaving out the most important thing: defining success in the first place.

And as we see, there are differing definitions.

Well of course you have to decide if having a playerbase that gets smaller with each passing day is or isn't the way to go.

 

EDIT:

I can't imagine what's wrong with what we have...the windows move around, can be resized, can go transparent or not, and I much prefer the chat setup here than shows on any of your examples. We even have the option to choose how the chat shows up.

Technically speaking the interface is as ok as it can be BUT we all know Roja is a great designer and we also know that the interface didn't get too much attention over the years. We had the characters remodelled, the models remodelled so what's wrong with this picture? Something is missing...Oh I remember! It's the interface! Making something more appealing to the eye never hurt anyone.

Edited by Garnoo

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They key of success is to be open-minded.

Ahh but you are leaving out the most important thing: defining success in the first place.

And as we see, there are differing definitions.

Well of course you have to decide if having a playerbase that gets smaller with each passing day is or isn't the way to go.

I don't think that is a newbie problem, and I don't think dumbing down EL is the solution. But that is an off-topic-here kettle of fish for another day.

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They key of success is to be open-minded.

Ahh but you are leaving out the most important thing: defining success in the first place.

And as we see, there are differing definitions.

Well of course you have to decide if having a playerbase that gets smaller with each passing day is or isn't the way to go.

I don't think that is a newbie problem, and I don't think dumbing down EL is the solution. But that is an off-topic-here kettle of fish for another day.

So you are saying that those 70-80% players that don't read quests are dumb and the others are smart? I will have to disagree on this one.

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They key of success is to be open-minded.

Ahh but you are leaving out the most important thing: defining success in the first place.

And as we see, there are differing definitions.

Well of course you have to decide if having a playerbase that gets smaller with each passing day is or isn't the way to go.

I don't think that is a newbie problem, and I don't think dumbing down EL is the solution. But that is an off-topic-here kettle of fish for another day.

So you are saying that those 70-80% players that don't read quests are dumb and the others are smart? I will have to disagree on this one.

:)

 

 

 

Oh I remember! It's the interface! Making something more appealing to the eye never hurt anyone.

Why do you presume to judge appealing for everyone?

Hmm of the 3 examples you gave, I like the middle one the best. And that looks almost like what we have already.

The first one was ugly as sin, the third one was distracting in it's massiveness, pretty enough but overwhelming the game itself.

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Those where just windows in the first and third one like the inventory window and the skill window its not the hud, all are close able. Its obvious I guess that most of your probably havn't played many mmorpgs besides EL but if youve ever played everquest, everquest 2, or dungeons and dragons online you would see how they have the interesting role playing dialogue for the players who enjoy reading it and holding a conversation, but they also have it so you can skip the dialogue if you so choose and go straight to the quest without having to search through the dialogue for the quest. Those games are being known for having the best role playing elements and story out of just about any f2p mmorpg, I don't see why EL only has to support the type of player who enjoys the role playing element, and cant also support the type of players that enjoy getting to the action right away. Players who enjoy getting to the action right away are by no means dumber then a player who enjoys the rpg element to the game. You wouldn't be dumbing it down you would just be opening up for a different kind of player to enjoy.

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I like the middle one the best. And that looks almost like what we have already.

Seriously(and no offence): wtf? In no way is it even close to the EL interface. Maybe the color and transparent windows but that's it. If you ask me it is a real pleasure to work with an interface like Martial Empires (I believe that's the game) has. The EL interface on the other hand get's the job done but in terms of looks it's closer to this: http://www.warungdigital.com/wp-content/up...k-interface.jpg than to what Martial Empires has. Go ahead and open the Inventory. There's no way on Earth that window looks medieval and the same goes for all the other windows. Even some stylish borders with leaves or wood or whatever would make a huge difference and would look way better than those 'Windows 98 lines'.

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That said, it is an insight into "average-joe-nub's" first impression of EL, and since he makes up like 70%+ of the MMO players out there, changes to the game to appease him are worth at least considering.

 

Really? I'd rather just take the 30% that are already appeased. It's not like we're talking about 30% of 50 people or anything, It's thousands. I think the pool is big enough as it is.

 

And herein lies the heart of the problem:

Do we want thousands of average-joe-nubs in the game and by necessity dumb down EL into a different game?

 

Or do we want EL as we know it now for the most part, and keep the player base smaller and more ambitious?

 

I think this is the business of Radu & Roja.

It's nice to have a small and nice community but when you make such a game you also expect to make some money from it. Well, at least it's my opinion. So the more people you have, the more money you can expect to get...

 

Unfortunately, the guy who made the video is probably like 90% of the actual gamers. So at some point, you have to choose to put some water in your wine if you want to grow or at least to survive...

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@Schmurk:

Pretty much I agree with you. I was using "we" more in reference to the debate that was sparked, than the reality of who chooses EL's path.

 

Don't forget to add "integrity" to the mix though. It's pretty obvious Radu and Roja consider that as well, and have their own ideas as to what they want EL to be and look like. It's a hard balancing act.

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lol at all the people trying to crucify him because he make some criticisms. DAMN HIM!!1! (I mean honestly... what did you think a "first impressions" quick video for a hugely popular mmo site was going to be; him reading through the encyc and all the NPC dialogue to do the tutorial? :S)

 

Anyway, all the points he raises are good ones; the main problem is, as it always has been, that this game will never have a large population. It doesn't conform to most common mmo forms; and it is this that makes it different (and therefore in some respects good), but guarenteed to have a low playerbase.

 

The interface is clunky; the camera moves annoying slowly if you come back to EL from a game where you can pan it with the mouse. I've also always wondered why there aren't other small, easy improvments such as a simple outline of a body behind the equipment section just to make things slightly clearer for new players... it wouldn't exactly be hard to do would it?

 

Not going to bother going through the rest. If you want the population of the game to increase then all those problems would need to be addressed, if not that it doesn't matter. Going by the past... 7+ years now? (scary) it's not radu's main concern. As long as he's happy with it that way then not much else matters; the game has a pretty consistent population even if it is small.

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That said, it is an insight into "average-joe-nub's" first impression of EL, and since he makes up like 70%+ of the MMO players out there, changes to the game to appease him are worth at least considering.

 

Really? I'd rather just take the 30% that are already appeased. It's not like we're talking about 30% of 50 people or anything, It's thousands. I think the pool is big enough as it is.

Is it? Those 30% players may seem a large number but when you think about it....well... there are hundreds of mmorpgs so it is impossible to get all those 30% to play EL hence the really small community. One of the most important things you have to consider when making an mmorpg is that you don't have to force anyone to read novels.

My criticisms of him have nothing to with not being willing to 'read novels'. I agree it's unattractive game design to force huge amounts of reading, but he wasn't willing to read anything.

Sorry but having a first level domain and some web-hosting doesn't impress me or automatically make him good at anything.

He's a shit reviewer (first impressionist, whatever ;p) because of as Aislinn said:

He really shouldn't be stating as fact the incorrect things he's stating.

He literally comes to conclusions without having any evidence.

He complains about things, that wouldn't phase me, like they're big problems.

 

I think EL could use a big 'tune up for the masses' in many areas, certainly with stuff related to that initial 15 mins for a new player.

Cater for joe-nub;

  • Put exclamation marks over the Tutorial NPC
  • Have "(QUEST)" in bright green or yellow next to the parts of his dialogue that lead to starting quests
  • Make him give some uber basic and immediately achievable quests (like "kill 4 brown rabbit and bring me their furs") that have decent rewards
  • Change brownies and beavers so they're weak as piss and a person could kill heaps of anything on IP without dying (no one likes dying, even if they do just goto beam and don't drop, and making it so easy to die so early ain't good)

 

And of course the other stuff, cater for joe-MMO;

  • Balance combat equipment
  • Stop trying to achieve a real-world economy model
  • Stop focusing on sinking gc
  • Fix the NPC prices
  • Make the char development 'end-game' achievable in less than (the stated) 10 years
  • Fix death penalty (requires economy fixing first)
  • blah blah etc.

 

the camera moves annoying slowly if you come back to EL from a game where you can pan it with the mouse.
ummm you are aware of the function of middle/scroll click, yeah?

 

Not going to bother going through the rest. If you want the population of the game to increase then all those problems would need to be addressed, if not that it doesn't matter. Going by the past... 7+ years now? (scary) it's not radu's main concern. As long as he's happy with it that way then not much else matters; the game has a pretty consistent population even if it is small.

This is basically it.

Everyone in this thread acknowledges there's changes that could be made to make the game more attractive to the masses, the only real argument is whether or not that's a good thing. We could no doubt get consensus on at least some of the changes that would achieve this if we kept to discussing... but there's no point at all.

 

Anyone who's closely watched this game develop for a few years knows: it's not Radu's main concern. He won't make those key, big changes that separate EL from the kind of games that have tens of thousands of players.

 

So there's just no point talking about it.

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Ahh welcome Lorlen, right on schedule. We can always count on you to show up in the key threads to spread your wisdom, wit, joy, and truth. ;)

 

 

(first impressionist, whatever ;p)

:)

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