Debate on military & Iraq

[Flexo]

Finally i have to agree with ent, there is nothing glorious in US army, and that idiot son of an asshole Bush. Your whole nation is so rotten and controlled by media that it makes me sick to even think 'bout US politics and Bush's ignorance towards enviromental issues and all other things he does. When a man can't breath&walk&eat at the same time he can't play leader of the world and decide death for civilians that has nothing to do with saddam/osama. Memorial day yea, i think it should be called the day of war criminals. We in Finland have a veteran day and i have great respect towards our veterans, they defended MY country and didn't attack for oil to anywhere. We were attacked by russia during ww2 and for my grandparents deserve the honor of veteran day. Veteran day is not for rapist and torturers like US troops

[KillerQween]

Memorial (as stated before) is for remembrance of ALL people who have died. Like your relatives military and non military.

 

Guess what Flexo...your millitary ain't perfect.

[warder]

i was just scanning this thread and saw ent talking about how the A Bombs killed thousands in cold blood. I live in the town where the A Bombs were developed and have visited the museum and talked with my grandfather who worked on the bomb about this many times. The majority of military historians believe that the first bomb saved lives. An attempted land invasion by the US would have been disastrous on both sides. I do, however, see what your saying Ent. I also agree the second bomb was completely wrong. I am against the war in Iraq because the reasons behind it. Personal gain is what drives this war. The company that the vice president was CEO of at one time and is still a major stockholder is a oil company and has made 38 billion dollars since the beginning of the war. I doubt i'll post again in this thread because it has just turned to pointless arguing, its past the point of debating. People are just refusing to even try to see a different point of view. You don't have to agree with it, just look past your own thoughts. That type of mentality causes ignorance and hate. I hate the threads where someone voices there own opinion and then someone comes through and instead of voicing theres they resort to "your teh dumbest asshole ever" and "your wrong you idiot." Well, I've rambled enough. I hope everyone had a nice weekend off and a safe one.

 

sincerely,

andrew

[Flexo]

Guess what Flexo...your millitary ain't perfect.  

 

No, but our soldiers don't rape and torture innocent civilians unlike US army does. Our military is all recruit military, i've been there and the thing we do here is VERY different, our main goal is to DEFEND our country not ATTACK other countries WITHOUT a REASON.

[Flexo]

Memorial (as stated before) is for remembrance of ALL people who have died.  Like your relatives military and non military.

 

I wouldn't want to remember my grandparents if they were rapists and torturers nor should anyone else since its utterly WRONG against mankind

[Flexo]

AND the bad things they've committed ALLWAYS outweights the few good things they've done ever. Your nation is just controlled by media and lies you don't give a shit 'bout world politics you don't give a shit 'bout europe but europe has to care 'bout you and your actions. I really despite all americans for the actions they have made. But why i can generalise all americans for this is that MAJORITY voted for bush so all actions bush mades reflects all that you think since you have chosen that idiot son of an asshole as your leader, eventho the election was fixed there was still enough ppl to vote the bastard so that it could be fixed. Bush is an ex-junkie, caught drunk driving, his children are junkies etc. Does that qualify as a good leader

[shasso]

*remembers all the brave soildiers*

 

That died heroically to opress others....

 

That is their job, i believe that 99% of them did not wish to go in a war. They chose that proffesion from one reason or another, maybe they had no other choice, and signed a contract wishing for no war. But the politics fecked them up... So i believe they still deserve some respect

[Entropy]

That is their job' date=' i believe that 99% of them did not wish to go in a war. They chose that proffesion from one reason or another, maybe they had no other choice, and signed a contract wishing for no war. But the politics fecked them up... So i believe they still deserve some respect[/quote']

 

I disagree. When you join the army, you do something VERY important. It is going to affect (or even end) your life in a VERY significant and unavoidable way. The whole purpose of an army is to KILL. The KILLING is done for various reasons: defending the country, helping an ally, stealing oil, opressing other people, saving lives, liberating nations, etc. But the purpose of a soldier is mainly to KILL. Don't tell me they don't teach you so many ways to kill, in the army.

If those who joined the army did it because they wanted to pick daisies on sunny fields, surounded by butterflies, then, well, they are stupid. before making such an important commitment, you should accept, and even embrace the fact that most likely you will have to kill people (or help others do that). In my beliefs system, with very few exceptions, killing is WRONG. I also believe that those who kill people that didn't hurt them personally (ie. people defending their country) should die, preferably a slowly, painful death.

The WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam wars were fought with mostly unwilling people. Most of them didn't want to fight, but they were kidnaped by the government, and forced to fight. They have an excuse. But those who VOLUNTARELY join the army, and commit crimes against mankind diserve no prise, no flowers, no tears, and no appreciation. But they do diserve to be remembered, so we can avoid becoming like them.

 

Of course, this is my personal belief. Feel free to agree or disagree, afterall we live in free countries, where free speech is legal, and should be encouraged.

[Tzale]

Finally i have to agree with ent, there is nothing glorious in US army, and that idiot son of an asshole Bush. Your whole nation is so rotten and controlled by media that it makes me sick to even think 'bout US politics and Bush's ignorance towards enviromental issues and all other things he does. When a man can't breath&walk&eat at the same time he can't play leader of the world and decide death for civilians that has nothing to do with saddam/osama. Memorial day yea, i think it should be called the day of war criminals. We in Finland have a veteran day and i have great respect towards our veterans, they defended MY country and didn't attack for oil to anywhere. We were attacked by russia during ww2 and for my grandparents deserve the honor of veteran day. Veteran day is not for rapist and torturers like US troops

 

Your grandparents were probably the biggest rapists and torturers. If your going to lie and assume that all Americans are rapists, then guess what your entire country is made up of racists too. WHAT RIGHT do YOU have to say something about Americans who don't even fall into the category you say? Hey, guess what Americans are EUROPEANS... Do you not remember that almost all Americans came over from Europe? My ancestors are from Poland, Germany and Ireland just because they live in America doesn't mean they are rapists! ARE YOU STUPID?

 

Don't put down America because of politicians I am SICK of the jealousy towards America. Your jealous, that's what it comes down to you make me sick.

[Tzale]

My family has fought in the Civil War (my mom's side) for the union (north), World War I and my grandfather fought in World War II against the Nazi's. Korean War my other grandfather fought in, Vietnam my father was drafted into and he was AGAINST that war... AKA hippie movement. My uncle, Jim Dalton lost his life in that fucking war Vietnam because of that bastard Johnson. Don't say these people are rapists. They are far from it, they fought for their country even when some of these wars were not justified. They fought because there leaders told them to. You NEED to get your facts straight, and stop buying into every little anti-american thing you hear. Your going to say our media is fucked up, well it is... But so is yours, all media is biased. Learn to accept that....

 

Just so you know, I'm not a ultra-patriotic American, I would love to move to Europe in a few years. If a draft broke out, I'd move to another country. But I don't think you should call all of us rapists! That's WRONG.

[Entropy]

Don't put down America because of politicians I am SICK of the jealousy towards America. Your jealous, that's what it comes down to you make me sick.

 

Admit it, Flexo and others, you just hate the great american people because they have bigger cars, better schools, more freedom, less polution, and a much higher standard of living! And their leaders have balls, not like you pussies!

[Tzale]

Don't put down America because of politicians I am SICK of the jealousy towards America. Your jealous, that's what it comes down to you make me sick.

 

Admit it, Flexo and others, you just hate the great american people because they have bigger cars, better schools, more freedom, less polution, and a much higher standard of living! And their leaders have balls, not like you pussies!

 

Honestly there is no point in arguing with you guys. I never said America is better, it just happens to be that America is the center of the world. The same way Europe used to be. It's a big power in the world, and people are going to get pissed at stuff they do. I don't really care anymore, I just want Bush out of office and I want to enjoy my life. I can't be bother fighting over this. I can't change anything anyway, the corporate elite and Israeli terrorists will always run America so what else is new. Just don't put down soldier's. That's just low. Put down the ones who rape, and torture people. Humans are going to always have war, that's the way it works. I don't support war where it's not needed. America is NOT the threat to the world, it's ISRAEL. America is a puppet for ISRAEL.

[Entropy]

You didn't say America is better, but you said people hate America because they are jealous. Now what does that imply?

Anyway, with very few exceptions, no one hates every single american.

When people say they hate America, or the american army, they don't mean every single citizen, and every single soldiers. I am sure there are kind and generous soldiers in the american army. I know that there are intelligent and good americans (I even had the privilege to interact with quite a few).

What people hate about America is it's government, and the arrogance of a large part of the population. What they hate about the american army is the attrocities they commit, and the fact that they are not punished for their actions (being degraded or discharged, for torturing people, is not a punishment).

[Grum]

I never said America is better

Than what else does the statement "Your jealous, that's what it comes down to" imply?

it just happens to be that America is the center of the world

That's a common misconception in the US, I think this is exactly what Ent was trying to point out. People are not pissed off at America because it's successful. People are angered because of the way the US uses it's succesful status to push their views on the rest of the world.

[Tzale]

I never said America is better

Than what else does the statement "Your jealous, that's what it comes down to" imply?

it just happens to be that America is the center of the world

That's a common misconception in the US, I think this is exactly what Ent was trying to point out. People are not pissed off at America because it's successful. People are angered because of the way the US uses it's succesful status to push their views on the rest of the world.

 

Then I don't see why were are fighting about this. I said earlier I agreed that there is a lot of problems with that. I think it's 100% wrong that we can say they can't do something but we can do it. When I mean Jealous I mean everything is here, and all. I'm not saying it's better, just that we are a "super power" like Russia once was. People generally hate the big guys, because the power goes to their head. You don't know how sick I get when I hear 5 Americans killed, they donate an hour to that yet 30,000 people die in a earthquake in Iran and it got 1 minute air time on CNN, a few months back. It makes me sick how money controlled we are, and how we give everything to Israel and hurt the Palestinians. I don't know how we can support Israel after what they did to the Palestinians homes a few days ago.

 

It's time for me to get some sleep. It's 5:15 AM.....

[Tzale]

One more thing..... I said from Day 1 that Bush was going to start wars, even before he got elected by ONE person. Who just happens to work for Bush's brother Jeb (governor) of Florida. I also never thought this plan would work in Iraq. I believe if the Iraqi's wanted democracy they would overthrow Saddam and create it themselves. It's just not going to work over there. It's wrong we are forcing it on them. It's not liberation it's occupation. I really hope we can pull out and stop all the killing, soon..... Hopefully Kerry will be elected and atleast do a little better job then Bush.

 

-Tzale

[Flexo]

Don't put down America because of politicians I am SICK of the jealousy towards America. Your jealous, that's what it comes down to you make me sick.

 

Admit it, Flexo and others, you just hate the great american people because they have bigger cars, better schools, more freedom, less polution, and a much higher standard of living! And their leaders have balls, not like you pussies!

 

 

Ent, I live in a very developed country, Finland. (And i got your irony on that one)

 

Your grandparents were probably the biggest rapists and torturers. If your going to lie and assume that all Americans are rapists, then guess what your entire country is made up of racists too. WHAT RIGHT do YOU have to say something about Americans who don't even fall into the category you say? Hey, guess what Americans are EUROPEANS... Do you not remember that almost all Americans came over from Europe? My ancestors are from Poland, Germany and Ireland just because they live in America doesn't mean they are rapists! ARE YOU STUPID?

 

Don't put down America because of politicians I am SICK of the jealousy towards America. Your jealous, that's what it comes down to you make me sick.

 

 

Tzale please study a little of finlands history. We have been ruled by other countries for a LONG time. We got independent in the early 20th century, we were independent for 'bout 30 years until russia attacked us, and still we didn't rape/torture them. We took war prisoners but they were treated in very good manners according to how they could've been treated during that time. So please shove that patriotic attitude up your ass. We know how it feels to be invaded and i don't want that feeling to anyone in the whole world and you stupid americans just keep going everywhere just like nothings wrong 'bout it.

 

Atm all europeans are mostly shamed that americans have roots here

 

Why would i be jealous since everything here in Finland is so much better than in america. We may pay higher taxes than you but the money our country gets from taxes are used for good purposes such as WORKING social care etc. NOT warfare

 

And all american ppl, try to find other sources of news than cnn, you'll find many things a whole lot different there. Viva Micheal Moore

[Kira]

I have to agree with Tzale...

 

I was not happy with Bush being elected. And I was against the idea of Iraq since before we went over there.

 

Worse of all, I live in his home state, so I am constantly getting crap for my opinions.

 

But let me ask you anti-Americans out there... What was Iraq like before we got there? A leader, his sons, regularly torturing his own people. Housing terrorist in this country. Oppresion of religion. Oppression of freedoms.

 

I hope we do move out of Iraq... and soon. And despite SOME soldiers' stupidity, I hope that the MAJORITY of soldiers' efforts (and lives) will have meant something to that country. That there people will be free. And that there leaders will no longer oppress and torture them as it was before we got there.

 

Again, I don't like us being over there... but if some good can come of it...

[Flexo]

Its the iraqi ppl to solve their problem, no1 has declared US as the world police, or? Its a UN issue and it should've been done in a peaceful way. And US didn't go there to liberate the ppl, they went there just and ONLY for the oil

[Kira]

We get an EXTREMELY small percentage of our oil from IRAQ.

 

And is it now the view of all those in Europe to pretend nothing is happening when people are being oppressed and tortured?

 

Well, not all Europeans. Ent believes that the US is an oppressor... just not Saddam...

[Flexo]

YES you will get a little now, but when your own sources run out WHERE do you go? I won't be guessing here 'cause i KNOW where you will get your oil in future, from IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN.

 

And think 'bout the amount of money you have used on 2 manhunts and one of them has been a *?*success*?* ? Think 'bout how you would've improved your systems there? And how exactly did those war actions in Iraq help an average american? How could that money been invested more wisely? I can think a lot better ways than those you have used for them.

[becher]

I have read all posts in this thread and now Im very shocked how the media-brainwashing is working perfectly in your U.S...

Ent is absolutely right with his thoughts about the last wars started by the U.S. and thats the reason why nearly the whole world hates the U.S. And its not that the whole world is jealous - really, as an European I will not spend my holidays in the U.S. anymore nor I wont live there *shovers*

I dont hate the PPL but the politics of the US and they are voted (nearly 50% pro-Bush). So lets say I hate half of them or think they are stupid.

And to say "the soldiers have no choice..." -come on, thats a really POOR excuse. U have to think before u join the army about killing inncent ppl.

And all soldiers are knowing that they have to kill ppl. And the last

decades they did NOT to protect there country but to force there very own interests - so better think about it, twice!

[Guest Toyminator]

One thing: In The Netherlands (and US) you WILL NOT get shot when not following a order, maybe in some countries like Iraq etc you will...

 

But in the Western culture? no, sorry...maybe you would get a panishment but killed goes to far!

 

PS: Peace.

[fred_penner]

I just wanted to point out one recurring theme I noticed:

 

Guess what Flexo...your millitary ain't perfect.

 

Defending your point by saying some else is worse doesn't make sense. That's like saying it's ok that you're a murderer because at least you're not a mass murderer.

 

Guess how many women iraq has tortured or raped? guess how many american forces did?

 

Are you nuts? You want to base a defense on who's raped fewer people?

 

The US military isn't OK just because there are worse examples out in the world.

[KillerQween]

My point in saying that to flexo was to have him do some research. Have everyone do some research into their own beliefs, countries, etc. I wanted him to go "oh yeah" and start looking.

 

No i'm not saying one is better than the other for raping less people, i'm saying people are using one example in the long history of this world. That is wrong, very wrong. Yes some American soldiers have committed attrocities, but if you do the research, every army in the world has in our history committed horrible horrible attrocities. You cannot single out one person from one army. It is an ongoing problem, has been since the beginning of man made war. Yes we are more civilized now, which is why people, in general, are treated better during times of war. But there are always going to be a few bad seeds in EVERYONE's army. I agree the media is very biased, and therefore are only going to show what will get them good ratings. That is sad, for there are other things happening, esp in Iraq that would make people realize that some good is being done there. I don't like Bush, never had. When he was running for election I told everyone he is gonna try to finish the war his daddy started, kind of a vendetta thing. Which is why I did not vote for him, I voted for Nader (lesser of two evils there) Sadly, I was right. I do not stand behind Bush, I do no agree with him, but I'll be damned if i'm going to bad mouth the American soldiers are doing their job and what they were ordered to do.

 

No one likes politicians, I'm learning that quickly in my research. For example in Finland, after the Winter War and The continuing war several Finnish politicians were tried for war crimes for their part in the war. That outraged the Finnish people. I would love it if Bush was tried for his part in this war. He used 9/11 as an excuse to finish his daddy's war, and that is wrong. There are a lot of politicians who should be tried for their action, but alas never will be.

 

I hope this clears up a bit