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KillerQween

Debate on military & Iraq

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I have no idea what queenjenny did in the army, so I can't comment about her(?) actions. Anyway, I don't remember saying that all the american army is made out of cold blooded criminals and rapists.

My initial statement (in this thread) was something like: "Let's prise the american soldiers who heroically give their lives to oppress others".

Which is very true. After the WW2, that's why the american soldiers lost their lives: To opress others (and teal their oil, etc.)

 

@Kira

Where I come from is not a perfect place, but our army doesn't kill civilians. Instead, our army (parts of it, of course) goes in PEACE KEEPING UN misions.

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UN missions?

 

Wasnt' it the US who pressed for the UN?

 

And hasnt' the UN had it's share of problems and debacles?

 

Again... I don't think there is a perfect place. I look at the US army as being one of the largest... take the "crimes" you mentioned and rate them as a percentage of the size of the army. I have a feeling you will see far worse from many, MANY other countries (i.e. Russia, and the half of Europe that used to fall under the umbrella of the USSR, China, Korea, Vietnam).

 

Is the US the great pinnacle? No... but look carefully around you... you might be surprised

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My initial statement (in this thread) was something like: "Let's prise the american soldiers who heroically give their lives to oppress others".

Which is very true. After the WW2, that's why the american soldiers lost their lives: To opress others (and teal their oil, etc.)

 

^^this is where you've been wrong all along, and you don't seem to be getting the message: the american army is given orders, they don't just sit around and think up horrible things to do (until recently). I agree with you 100% that the leaders of the army (the president, the army commanders, etc) should not be highly regarded, because much of their commands end up causing far too many unnecisary deaths. But dont say that the american soldiers lost their lives to opress others, because they didn't. the american soldiers lost their lives to follow out the orders of their commanders, or their president, because at the moment, they were told that this was the right thing to do. the soldiers do not go into war thinking "alright how can we piss of another romanian". they go into war with a pride for their country, and they do what they are told, because they believe that what they are told is the right thing to do. Their commanders are to blame for 99% of the wrongdoings, not the soldiers themselves.

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USSR, China, NK, etc. do not brag about how they are the pinacle of freedom and justice. And I thought that America (and the americans) thought of themselves to be SUPPERIOR, which dissalows use of barbaric tactics in war (such as torturing civilians).

 

Wasnt' it the US who pressed for the UN?  

Umm, no? USpretty much told UN to go fuck itself, and then they invaded Iraq.

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US pressed for the UN at the inception... lately we have told them to fuck off (again our leaders who I do not agree with)

 

And it is YOUR perception that we all see ourself as the be-all-end-all of the world. Not mine.

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^^this is where you've been wrong all along, and you don't seem to be getting the message: the american army is given orders, they don't just sit around and think up horrible things to do (until recently).

 

This is where you've been wrong all along.

I never claimed that the American Army was bored, so one day they decided: 'Gee, it's so boring, let's go and opress Iraq".

Of course that part of the fault are the leaders, but that doesn't mean that the american soldiers that died in Iraq didn't die to opress others. That's why they died: to opress others.

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thats why i said "until recently". I disagree with most of what has happened recently in Iraq, because there are so many civilian killings and horrible things going on. But I also said "Their commanders are to blame for 99% of the wrongdoings, not the soldiers themselves." 99% of the wrongdoings. You only mention the bad things in Iraq and a few other times. Like i said earlier, these wrongdoings do NOT add up to the good that has been done by the US. The things that have happened in Iraq have been bad, but the overall goal is not to opress others. A few soldiers here and there may want to die for this, but the overall goal has been to rid Iraq of Alqaida (spelling?) and set up a democracy. This obviously went completely haywire, but you can't only look at the bad in things.

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I've listened to enough:

 

Ent: you obviously have a boulder sized chip on your shoulder, who put it there i don't know. But you are in error in a lot of your judgements towards the US. I don't consider our country superior or anything, but i know one thing. I can walk down the streets of this country saying whatever i want, i can vote for whomever i wish, and i can sleep at night knowing there are people watching over my country. Yes there are bad soldiers, in the US army, in the UN, in your country's army (don't deny it's true everywhere), but I never was. I went VERY PROUDLY into service for my country to do my part, I wasn't forced to i chose to. I was in the AIR FORCE! And I will give you Sh*t about the innocence of millitary personnel. Most of them are 17 or 18 upon entering service. They are scared to death right from boot camp, as you would be. What they learn, they learn from the people they deal with, commanders, tv, radio, enemy forces. Guess how many women iraq has tortured or raped? guess how many american forces did? Not even close huh? Before you go preaching about oppression and such, perhaps you should do a bit of research? Or go live somewhere that is oppressed, vote Saddam as rule of your country for a while. Just a thought :P

 

And yes we are very against people who hijack our planes and crash them into civilian buildings, killing hundreds or thousands of innocent people. Add up all the people (millitary and civilian) the middle eastern people have killed, and compare to america's army, to the world. Saddam has killed thousands in his reign needlessly. He is an evil man, and if you dont see that perhaps...nope won't finish that one. I'm better than that.

 

And as for your hatred for those soldiers who dropped the bombs on Japan...they were following orders (you obey u ok, get it?) they had no choice in the matter. You wanna be angry, put it towards the right person: Harry S Truman. He ordered the bombs dropped, he made a very hard decision. I'm not saying he was right, but damnit he's the one who did it. So quit slamming US mililtary, unless you're willing to slam every military in the world (and btw i have done the research and European military doesn't have a good war record)

 

Thanks for letting me vent.

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The commanders just give orders. The soldiers are not forced to obey orders that are contradicting international conventions US signed. or are they?

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Hi,

 

I am strongly opposed to the Iraq war, however I honor those who have fought for this great country. We are a world super power, with crazy politicians who send off the soldiers to kill people. DON'T put down the soldiers, put down the bastards like George Bush who send off soldiers to kill people. I honor ANY soldier from ANY army or ANY country who fight for their country. This includes America, Japan (WW2), Nazi Germany, Iraq (current war). While I might not agree with what they have done, I honor them for fighting/dieing for whatever they work for. Leaders brainwash, the soldiers just follow orders. Rich man create's wars, poor man goes to fight them. America is currently the largest source of fighting because we are a super power, and we have stupid ass politicians. MOST Americans don't feel superior to other countries! It's these dumb fu$%ing politicians and media who make it look that way. Also just so you know, I don't honor terrorists. They are completely different then what I mentioned before. Terrorists go after innocent civilians without any prewarning. Attacks like Pearl Harbor are different, they go after military installations. If the terrorists were to blow up the Pentagon without using civilian planes it would be a different story. Now I know what your thinking, Americans kill thousands and thousands of innocent civilians in wars like Iraq. Well, I know that's true and it's a DAMN SHAME. This is the reason we shouldn't be there. But I can't say those soldier's do this, they are given orders by there superiors to strike X target at X time. It's not the poor man in the field.

 

I'm going to stop rambling now. I just wanted you to know that I am a strong anti-war person, however I believe honor should be given when a person fights for there country. I don't care what country is, or what war, while I may not agree with those countries actions I can't say the soldiers are wrong for following what there leaders told them.

 

Just so you know, I agree AMERICA was WRONG to drop those bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima then start wars decades later over non-existant weapons of mass destruction when AMERICA was the only country to ever use them on a large scale. Saddam was a bad man, he killed a lot of people but while he was doing it, we were friends with him. They have pictures of Donald Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand during the time he was killing Kurds. It wasn't against our policies then, but for some reason it is now. Make's me sick.... But do me a favor, vote against assholes who support this shit. Together we can have peace.

 

I hope I convinced you, about the true meaning for this holiday.

 

-Tzale

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The commanders just give orders. The soldiers are not forced to obey orders that are contradicting international conventions US signed. or are they?

 

You posted this while I was posting my reply above this one. Yes, they are required to follow those orders. If they don't they are SHOOT dead on the spot if it's a time of war. This is the way it has been for thousands of years. WAR is not a game, sadly humans will kill each other over stupid shit. They signup for this crap, and they are forced to follow orders or else they could be killed or put into prison for a long time. There is talk about starting the draft again. This is complete BS. Now people who do not want to be in the war will be forced into it. This happened during Vietnam, I believe 16 year olds were being sent into war. WHAT FOR? That war was not-supported by a lot of Americans.

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Given the choice of following an order given by your commanding officer even if you don't agree, OR being placed in a military prison, being removed from military dishonorably (meaning no benefits), and who knows what else, what the hell would you choose? Have you ever even been in the military?? From day one they break you down, turn you into a military force. You are taught to follow orders.....period. Try joining your country's military, then come talk to me.

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If I would be ordered to torture a civilian, I'd fucking blow the comannder's head off (and then mine). I was never in the army, because I don't believe in being ordered to kill people (there is no virtue in doing that).

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one problem here is that if a soldier dont like an order they can just lay down theyre weaponsand refuse to do it, alteast that was what one of the agreements signed after WW1 say i belive...

 

the problem with the UN is that it have a flawed setup, no one contry should be able to railroad it like the US or some of the other contrys can with theyre right to veto any resolution. oh and guess who have the most uses of theyre veto right...

 

as for the vietnam war, its was a war fought to protect a corupt south vietnam goverment from socialist/communist takeover by its own people. personaly i see communism failing in other contrys as they are stonewalled by capitalist contrys that fear them religiusly. if russia/sovjet had not started on a armsrace with the us then it could have worked out nicely as long as they had a system where the people on top where rotated at regular intervals just like in a democratic system, in fact communism dont need to be a system where one person sits on top until he dies, most of the democratic control structures can be put on top of a communist/socialist base. in fact the cold war was of communism vs capitalism, not communism vs democracy.

 

as for this war against terrorism, maybe one should sit down and look at why they are angry rahter then just shooting back. i do belive that one will find the reason for all the anger is israel. the US dont realy try to stop them from acting like schoolyard bullys, in fact its just recently that they didnt veto a UN resolution against them, they didnt vote at all.

 

btw, should not this thread be in off topic? this is most definetly not general chat about enternal lands...

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If I would be ordered to torture a civilian, I'd smeging blow the comannder's head off (and then mine). I was never in the army, because I don't believe in being ordered to kill people (there is no virtue in doing that).

 

I don't agree in killing people either, if we are a true democracy we can talk things out. However, these soldiers are ORDERED to do it or they are killed. If you don't follow orders, they kicked you to the ground and put a bullet in your back. Sad but true, in War they don't play games with this type of stuff.

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Thank god we have a forum on here. That's what this world lacks. If we could all debate things the way we are doing it right now there would be no wars.

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Thank god we have a forum on here. That's what this world lacks. If we could all debate things the way we are doing it right now there would be no wars.

 

I know I said I won't post on this thread, but, well, this is a subject change.

Saddam actually proposed Bush to have a talk on public TV. Bush said; "No".

So no, peaceful conversations usually don't get far.

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Entropy, that's what I mean. George Bush is NOT a true believer in democracy. He would not debate with Saddam Hussein. What I mean is that if we could all communicate and not put down requests for debates the way Bush did there would be no wars. All problems would be solved in the public realm.

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That's not true. This war didn't happen because a communication failure, but because Bush wanted the blood for oil program.

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I agree with you to a point. I believe it was a communication failure, because if George Bush listed all of his reasons for war and Saddam could openly respond LIVE then it would be a different story. It wouldn't be the same type of war, if any could happen.. I don't think George Bush could pull of his scheme if the world saw a live debate between Bush and Hussein, where all of the problems were openly debated in a closed amount of time and not spread out over a couple months allowing people to be confused by George Bush's real intentions. I hope I made this clear, if not it could be a communications failure on my part. :wink:

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Well, that's why Bush didn't want to talk. So the problem was nto a communication failure, it was rather an unilaterald ecision to go to war. Even if they had a live TV discussion, the average american would have believed Bush.

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Well, that's why Bush didn't want to talk. So the problem was nto a communication failure, it was rather an unilaterald ecision to go to war. Even if they had a live TV discussion, the average american would have believed Bush.

 

That's not true, I just read only 43% of Americans are in-support of Bush currently. I know the numbers were higher when we went to war but I think if people saw the lies live they wouldn't support him. Remember, all the media is controlled to be pro-israel anti-arab. That's why we have these problems. Please stop putting down Americans as dumb. The media is a big problem, and most people can't access news from other sources. So they buy into the propaganda.

 

I'm going to go play some EL now.. I think you understand me.

 

PS: May I ask what country you are from, and where do you live in America now. This might explain why you think all Americans are pro-Bush. Generally speaking there are states which will always agree with Bush and ones which will not agree, or they take sides depending on whats happening.

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I am from Romania, live in PA, for about 15 months.

And not all the americans are dumb, of course. But according to polls, about 70% are (those who supported the war in the beginning).

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