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Game ethics

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Well as most of you know there are some ethics in game that have been kept for a long time affecting most of the players attitude .

Like

1. "No bagjumping"

2. "Branch policy"

3. "Honorable PK "

4. "spawn serping"

 

 

I understand why some old players/guilds made those community rules, maybe at that time the players werent at so high levels and actually loosing some items or broke some other items - it would be hard to replace.

 

Did those community rules destroyed some aspects of the game? Was it a mistake to demonise some people and make them community outcasts? Do u think it would be to the community´s benefit for those rules to stop existing?

 

Even though some of these rules provide some "comfort" gaming time, i can see that they are destroying some parts of the game and the game eventually becomes a little boring each time.

 

I trully think game needs some "evil" , what are your thoughts about this

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If u had better options for punishing players that act against your moral codex u could settle problems in game (e.g. by pking those players) instead of discussing on the forums. What i m trying to say is that: Im not against this discussions but u have to face the fact that the people playing this game are just the same kind of people that live in the real world. And what do u do in rl if someone behaves badly? You react appropriately. On main your options are severely limited. Therefore malbehaving players do not have to fear reactions. However on the pk-server the situation is more realistic with higher ethical demands.

 

btw this also explains why there is such a low population and so "little" pk on the pk-server since as long as there are to few bad boys the malbehaviour is a costly strategy. The frustrated single bad boys leave and voila the great surprise: almost no pking between the people that have no reason to pk each other. Then the "good" ones have no one to fight and leave as well. (I guess once a certain population is reached the pk-server will be much more atttractive than main to adult (as regards reasoning) players.)

 

Hm. One would think i was trying to make a point here. Maybe it is just the wellknown "Join our server please! Will you?" from a frustrated pk-player, but maybe...

 

Oh too bad g2g now B) but im really looking forward to the flaming B)

 

Edit: Forgot something: The first person to get my point and posting it gets as price a pk-server char with 10kgc and some equipment for a better start :icon13:

Edited by LewisCarroll

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PK server ? it is another story, i was against it from day 1, no need to devide players unless u already had like 5-10k playing already at main :icon13:

 

Also there is no comparison between rl and playing games at net, huge mistake if u say it is, even bigger is u say that the person that is doing "bad" in a mmorpg is the same in rl.

 

and @ ignoble

simply there arent many

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I fully agree with Xanthus. In these days players get used to these ethics so much that

game really becomes a little boring and too cute.

In my opinion:

1. PK is for PKing! Without rules!

2. If Im harvesting something on PK arena, its logical that someone will kill me to

sell my excavator cloak and buy SRS/hes or better pk gear! (if you want harvest you can pay for guard or

bring friend)

3. If I died, why someone should give me back my DB?

4. If you walked off bag, it will be stealed!

Of course if you behave good you will be honorable and much-loved player but it shoudnt

be every-day reality.

(to anticipate questions: yes; I was BJ-ped, and no, i dont bagjump myself :icon13: )

Edited by Leaf

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Well I like these community rules, but not for the reason most people do. If those things were completely accepted among other players, it would be just boring. It would just lose the "taste of forbidden fruit". Imo if you do those things in game, you actually except that people will threat you different way than honorable players. It's same thing in RL. There's lots of "community rules" that aren't forbidden by law, but community dislikes them.

 

So I think those community rules are the thing that keeps game interesting also for those people who don't want to be nice guys and girls. I just wish people don't take them too personally, this is a game after all and has nothing to do with RL. You can hate people in game and make their life as hard as you want, but remember it doesn't mean he's bad person irl.

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Well as most of you know there are some ethics in game that have been kept for a long time affecting most of the players attitude .

Like

1. "No bagjumping"

2. "Branch policy"

3. "Honorable PK "

4. "spawn serping"

 

Did those community rules destroyed some aspects of the game? Was it a mistake to demonise some people and make them community outcasts? Do u think it would be to the community´s benefit for those rules to stop existing?

 

I trully think game needs some "evil" , what are your thoughts about this

 

I do believe EL needs evil, or those that think outside of the box. As for the "code of ethics" in place from long ago. I think they need to be in place to a degree. To a degree that doesnt outcast a player from the game. And turns a entire community against them, forces them to either leave or no longer enjoy the other fun aspects of EL. Just because someone on the game enjoys serping, bag jumping, brod'n, etc. Doesnt mean theyre going to steal your car irl.

 

I believe many people need to learn to accept this as game play. Because with out evil, who are you going to cry about, chase after, help boost your ego trip?

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Morals and manners should always exist no matter where you are. They are not mandatory, but something that each person must decide to follow or not follow. A game has a thing called role playing. A person can choose to play a good person or an evil one. If there is no evil, you won't know what good is. What I like most is when the evil players actually admit they are evil and force people to accept it.

 

What is truly sad is when a guild gets red tagged and all the members of the guild get treated like slime because the guild was actually willing to let a person attempt to change their ways and no longer be an evil person. "You are my friend" turns into "I don't trust you because you have that member in your guild". I have had people do such a drastic turn around on me a few times as I tried to let someone try to change their spots and not be evil pkers anymore. These people decided to leave my guild on their own to spare my guild the distrust and red tagging and Broding from people with grudges that they don't let go. Sparing a guild the burdens of your own deeds.....does that sound so evil? Grudges are another form of evil, if you ask me.

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How can you have good, if you have no evil?

 

Not that I like being bagjumped, nor do I like loosing my stuff if I die, (obviously there are ways of mitigating these risks) but imho the drama that results from those who go against the 'community rules' is half of the game.

 

I agree with Nathanstenzel, it is sad when one individuals actions brings retribution onto their guild, but oftentimes I tend to think that is because the 'injured party' feels they have no other recourse against that individual. For example, bagjumpers rarely go into PK areas.

 

Ultimately I feel that it's up to the player to decide for themselves how they will approach this game. If people want to bagjump, fine. If people want to adhere to 'community rules' that is fine too. Both approaches are valid, it's up to the player to decide which works best for them.

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well, i don't think its about 'good' or 'evil' when i think about bag jumping or spawn serping,

its more about, how can some get lots of gc / xp very fast for them self.

 

about game fun, well how do you feel when you are in bethel on the cliff, ranging in a party

planing how to get the creatures down to get most of the bags in one run...and someone, waiting

at sedi entrance gets in invisible and steals them.... not fun

 

i was in real good teams, even with 'evil' peoples....but ethic gets lost when some starting to think

just for them self.

 

i wouldn't call them evil, i call them fun-thieves...

 

well but no wonder, if some don't have the patience for this game and just have one goal :

'all for me' some others might get upset and even leave, or stop doing things the liked with others...

 

in hope the community will win, wuffzel :icon13:

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there's a difference between people who decide to play the bad guy, and people who think they have more rights because of the levels they have, or the money they have invested.

 

Having people ingame like Newhope, or Rayla and Tyrone whenever they decide to honor us with a visit, or even the people who never speak up but who do spend hours looking for hyperbags to loot, makes EL, or even any other game more fun. It´s part of player interaction, and it's something that actually keeps people interested and entertained. The same goes for the people on the extreme other side, the ones some of us talk about as the peacefull treehuggers. EL wouldn't be EL if there weren't room for people who go and protest at the well in IP against mines working on peaceday.

 

But if you mention ethics, what first comes to mind is the recent outlaws post about whether or not someone is honest about a monster drop. Also, botowners totally outpricing eachother, only to monopolise the market, and with that driving up prices like crazy, totally forgetting about Joe Average not at all being able to afford things. Ethics, to me, is treating other players with respect, and not screwing them over. It´s being able to be happy with any help you get, from whatever level player offers the help. It's about working hard, gaining levels, and still be as friendly as you were when you needed the help yourself.

 

Oh, and I also want worldpeace.

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What is truly sad is when a guild gets red tagged and all the members of the guild get treated like slime because the guild was actually willing to let a person attempt to change their ways and no longer be an evil person. "You are my friend" turns into "I don't trust you because you have that member in your guild".

Reimbursement is often the best first step towards redemption.

 

If you encounter the situation you describe again in the future, I'd suggest finding out exactly what losses were caused by your new guild member and try to arrange for them to be paid back. A person truly looking to change their ways should be happy to reimburse those they've wronged, no?

 

I bothered posting this because wWw, which i wrote all policy for, was (well, is) one such guild that will brod/serp/etc. an entire guild if they take in a shitlisted individual. It's a policy that's in place for very good reason and will never change. However, it's also guild policy to be willing to un-shitlist a person if they're prepared to offer apologies and appropriate compensation for the losses they caused.

 

Just a suggestion. :icon13:

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about game fun, well how do you feel when you are in bethel on the cliff, ranging in a party

planing how to get the creatures down to get most of the bags in one run...and someone, waiting

at sedi entrance gets in invisible and steals them.... not fun

 

We have ranged many times together and we have always shared drops from monsters, but this is the part when strategy/ cost comes and u have to go get the bag from the dead monster. The cost increases but if u want t3h drop u have to get it. It would be nice if gatherer med worked for rangers too, but unfortunatelly it isnt.

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I fully agree with Xanthus. In these days players get used to these ethics so much that

game really becomes a little boring and too cute.

In my opinion:

1. PK is for PKing! Without rules!

2. If Im harvesting something on PK arena, its logical that someone will kill me to

sell my excavator cloak and buy SRS/hes or better pk gear! (if you want harvest you can pay for guard or

bring friend)

3. If I died, why someone should give me back my DB?

4. If you walked off bag, it will be stealed!

Of course if you behave good you will be honorable and much-loved player but it shoudnt

be every-day reality.

(to anticipate questions: yes; I was BJ-ped, and no, i dont bagjump myself :) )

Common sense ftw!

It's a game people! Designed to have pitfalls such as being serped, have bags not be safe, dying, etc. You didn't leave your wallet in your death bag. (And if you did, that is your own fault for bypassing the expected ways of earning your stuff here :) )

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Community rules are in place for one reason imo...

 

It's really hard to gain items most often used and any tactic to steal/destroy/loot them gives a person a real life feeling of loss which nobody likes.

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upsy, please don't get me wrong....

 

i didn't want to complain about that things got stolen or better say

 

went away :)

 

i wanted to show, there are players following their ethic they had chosen

 

whether its 'good' or 'evil' ... but some are just without any ethic against

 

any sort of community, thats what get me sometimes frustrated...

 

if someone pk's me .. i see his / her name... if someone gets 'my' bag

 

i know him / her for later.....so no problem with this for me, i can avoid it !!

 

if we all play this real good game, ethic will work :)

Edited by wuffzel

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What is truly sad is when a guild gets red tagged and all the members of the guild get treated like slime because the guild was actually willing to let a person attempt to change their ways and no longer be an evil person. "You are my friend" turns into "I don't trust you because you have that member in your guild".

Reimbursement is often the best first step towards redemption.

 

If you encounter the situation you describe again in the future, I'd suggest finding out exactly what losses were caused by your new guild member and try to arrange for them to be paid back. A person truly looking to change their ways should be happy to reimburse those they've wronged, no?

 

I bothered posting this because wWw, which i wrote all policy for, was (well, is) one such guild that will brod/serp/etc. an entire guild if they take in a shitlisted individual. It's a policy that's in place for very good reason and will never change. However, it's also guild policy to be willing to un-shitlist a person if they're prepared to offer apologies and appropriate compensation for the losses they caused.

 

Just a suggestion. :medieval:

 

Yes. It is a condition of mine for letting in the people that wish to change their ways.....they have to be willing to regain their honor. If a person is no longer eligible for repayment (perhaps because they no longer own the character that was owed something...think 'multiplay') then I see no reason to say more than "sorry" though. Newb helping (a part of the guild and a form of community service) is also required for the bad guys who wish to change their ways and join my guild. And if anyone was wondering, yes, honor is part of my guild's rules. Rule 8 to be exact.

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Ive been playing since mid to late 2004 somewhere in that time frame i started..... And i would think due to my antics in the past I would be ranked of the the more "evil" players left from the good ole daysm and crdible when i answer.

 

 

I understand why some old players/guilds made those community rules, maybe at that time the players werent at so high levels and actually loosing some items or broke some other items - it would be hard to replace.

 

These rules were already there since day 1 of my starting this game. back when the community was Super small. In fact I got a very bad reputation very fast because of the "community rules" and it stuck for many years.

 

Did those community rules destroyed some aspects of the game? Was it a mistake to demonise some people and make them community outcasts? Do u think it would be to the community´s benefit for those rules to stop existing?

 

it made it better you had it keep most of the community behaving (like a religion would affect real life culture) but when you had just a few a few people like me or Pookies that would brod up to 16 people in 1 day (no drop day was very easy for brod hits) it didnt ruin the fun for the "good people" and us outlaws kept the PK going with honorable PK guilds Vs the evil ones. Too many outlaws would have ruined the fun for the players. Back then you had many LARGE guilds and the PK back then was hard and vengeful lol. all pking instead of just 1 guild having a picnic in KF (on the rare occasion people are there) like you see now.

 

Even though some of these rules provide some "comfort" gaming time, i can see that they are destroying some parts of the game and the game eventually becomes a little boring each time.

 

Trust me.. if you had no community rules and everyone was getting screwed over you would not like the culture of this game and people would leave. One aspect of this game that the bigger names don't have is just how close and friendly you will get with other players. After a few monthns here you will know your EL friends better than many of your real life ones and that is because your working together and not screwing each other over.

 

I trully think game needs some "evil" , what are your thoughts about this

 

LOL my thoughts on this- that's risky for me to say LOL... But what i am willing to divulge in open forum... "MY" thoughts on this are.. well thewe bottom line is "fun" EVIL was made very hard to do AND it ruins the fun of the game.

 

1. They put that red cape perk on mage pants too so u cant use rings or brod people. Nowadays people ALWAYS have that stupid perk thats why i dont PK anymore I harvest all day LOL me? Once known as one of the most Evil Pkers int he game IMA HARVESTER NOW!. BROD was SOOOOO much fun for "evil people". Its a shame they ruined it.

 

2. Bagjumping is not only boring now that there is so few people harvesting with those mini events so frequent... but more expensive than harvesting your ore yourself it might take 20 keys at 150 each to find a bag of just 1k ore if you even find it because theres so few hyperbags due to the reduction in harvesters. back in the day you could bagjump a guilds project easily and cash in :medieval: Thats just very hard to find nowadays.

 

3. The armors got too high level to "remote heal the monster" while low levels train. They also made training a whole lot easier so killing a noob in such a way to take his stuff wont work unless you spend hours in olow level areas.

 

4. Capping the characters made PK less fun. I don't care what anyone says IT DID and if you want to ignore the fact that it did u can scratch your head and wonder all day at why we went from HUGE PK wars to nothing so fast. ALSO it wont be the same until its uncapped especially now with overpowered archers in the game a fighter needs their full strength to kick their ass if second they get their hands on them.

 

and Im not crying or bitching like some ppl about the overpowered archers - but plain and simple if u make a archer OP you better give the fighters a chance to get their hands on them and uncapped they don't have a chance - Using strategy or not OR ITS NOT FUN. And fun although often overlooked, IS IMPORTANT!

 

5. Rostos are not needed for KF. LOL I dont know what genius thought this one up but Whats the fun of killing someone if they dont need a rosto? Well its fun ONCE or TWICE maybe even 3 times BUT AFTER A WHILE ITS GONNA GET BORING! Wheres the fun of revenge for the people that did get Pkd if they didnt lose a rosto. We lost the rivalry we once had here! We lost the vengeful fun of this game! This arena bullshit you have now is NOTHING like the wars in KF. We had no drop day for this and it was fun so many people would go for massive amounts of players PKING because it was a special day and it was fucking awesome. No drops should have been left at that - a special day.

Edited by LuciferX

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1. They put that red cape perk on mage pants too so u cant use rings or brod people. Nowadays people ALWAYS have that stupid perk thats why i dont PK anymore I harvest all day LOL me? Once known as one of the most Evil Pkers int he game IMA HARVESTER NOW!. BROD was SOOOOO much fun for "evil people". Its a shame they ruined it.

Hmmm sounds to me like "The only way I could 'own' anyone (with similar stats, obviously) was with a brod, cause i really wasn't such a great PK'er". :)

 

4. Capping the characters made PK less fun. I don't care what anyone says IT DID

Easy for a pp buyer who had over 120 coord to say. :medieval: ...what did u get up to in the end Luci? 140? 150 coord? more?

 

and if you want to ignore the fact that it did u can scratch your head and wonder all day at why we went from HUGE PK wars to nothing so fast.

LOL, you make out like we had huge PK activity one day, then attribs got capped, and the next day PK was dead.

I was there and PK'ing well before and after attribs got capped. PK was dying well before the cap, and PK activity increased after the cap was introduced.

 

with overpowered archers in the game a fighter needs their full strength to kick their ass if second they get their hands on them.

 

and Im not crying or bitching like some ppl about the overpowered archers - but plain and simple if u make a archer OP you better give the fighters a chance to get their hands on them and uncapped they don't have a chance - Using strategy or not OR ITS NOT FUN. And fun although often overlooked, IS IMPORTANT!

On this I agree.

I have no problem with archers being able to do the damage they currently can, but yeah when a melee fighter gets their hands on them they should drop fast.

 

But i guess this is an inherent issue with a 'classless' game.

Though it could still possibly be addressed with big melee damage penalties so long as you have a bow equipped, and a cooldown on being able to re-equip a bow after unequiping.

EDIT: Not being able to have 'heavy' armors equipped at the same time as a bow could be good too, or at least, giving huge ranging accuracy penalties when heavy armor is equipped... which makes RP sense too.

 

5. Rostos are not needed for KF. LOL I dont know what genius thought this one up but Whats the fun of killing someone if they dont need a rosto? Well its fun ONCE or TWICE maybe even 3 times BUT AFTER A WHILE ITS GONNA GET BORING! Wheres the fun of revenge for the people that did get Pkd if they didnt lose a rosto. We lost the rivalry we once had here! We lost the vengeful fun of this game! This arena bullshit you have now is NOTHING like the wars in KF. We had no drop day for this and it was fun so many people would go for massive amounts of players PKING because it was a special day and it was fucking awesome. No drops should have been left at that - a special day.

KF was dead.

Unequivocally the most dead I ever remember KF being was in those weeks leading up to when it became no drops.

It was made No Drops and it immediately became more active.

Obviously with the game in the state it was, KF being a drops map was not working.

EDIT: I'm not saying KF being no-drops is a good thing irrelevant of the circumstances, I'm saying with various aspects of the game being as they are, It's a good thing.

 

I'm not saying certain changes and additions to the game didn't ruin KF, in fact I agree that they did, I'm just saying that the changes you claim are the ones that killed it were not the key issues, if issues at all.

Edited by Korrode

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You joined July 2006 your too new to know what it was like back then. You missed a lot. Also don't let your hatred of me cloud your memory or change history. I was a very skilled player although I quit by the time u were high enough to pk. Open your eyes to what's going on here the game is a ghost town compared to how many players we used to have it should have grown not shrank.

Edited by LuciferX

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Also don't let your hatred of me cloud your memory.

What hatred?

I like you.

 

Well actually I don't know about "like", but I don't think your presence in EL has been a bad thing.

Edited by Korrode

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<CLIP>
with overpowered archers in the game a fighter needs their full strength to kick their ass if second they get their hands on them.

 

and Im not crying or bitching like some ppl about the overpowered archers - but plain and simple if u make a archer OP you better give the fighters a chance to get their hands on them and uncapped they don't have a chance - Using strategy or not OR ITS NOT FUN. And fun although often overlooked, IS IMPORTANT!

On this I agree.

I have no problem with archers being able to do the damage they currently can, but yeah when a melee fighter gets their hands on them they should drop fast.

 

But i guess this is an inherent issue with a 'classless' game.

Though it could still possibly be addressed with big melee damage penalties so long as you have a bow equipped, and a cooldown on being able to re-equip a bow after unequiping.

EDIT: Not being able to have 'heavy' armors equipped at the same time as a bow could be good too, or at least, giving huge ranging accuracy penalties when heavy armor is equipped... which makes RP sense too.

<CLIP>

Melee damage might not have a penalty, but there is a different penalty.

SNAP! No more bow!

 

Any penalty from heavy armors is probably because you may have trouble keeping your arm extended for long periods of time. I believe that is why you would usually see people using crossbows while wearing platemail on tv.

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You joined July 2006 your too new to know what it was like back then. You missed a lot. Also don't let your hatred of me cloud your memory or change history. I was a very skilled player although I quit by the time u were high enough to pk. Open your eyes to what's going on here the game is a ghost town compared to how many players we used to have it should have grown not shrank.

 

I been here a bit longer, Not as long as you of course. I was at the tail end of the major pk action. And the game has changed a lot. One would argue it is not the same game at all.

 

Here are a few issues, in my opinion why the player based shrank...are you ready for this......

 

Buying and selling charaters..

 

A top person decides they can get some money for there charater, so they sell it and quit as starting a new charater is painful when used to being able to pawn all. So they go find a new game.

 

Some Noob buys top charater and trys to bring storage from alt to new charater, or gc's gets caught and gets locked (cheating) Feeling terrible that they just spent dollars for some top toon lose intrest and quit

 

Someother noob, does the same as above, spends top dollar for top charater and then figures out, wow it this game gets boring when you just own every mob in game, and even the dragons ignore you, so little risk, too much farming for hydro/nexus stones and then realize by buying a top charater they by-passed the fun part of the game...playing it.

 

The other problem is that the top charaters rarely leave game, they are traded around and are contiunaly getting stronger, which makes it more difficult for the casual player to become competitive. (I do think the daily quests are helping to bridge this gap) imo

 

@@6 and unoffical forums , the oldshcool trolls and naysayers that are always speaking ill of the game/the devs/ This helps no one other then some 16 year old ego's

 

Nexus removal stones , You can talk about the caps all you like, they are not really the issue, the issue here is those that have the real life dollars to spend on inflating the price of nexus stones end up becoming very very strong. This would not bother me as much if those in game gc's was being generated by shop sales, as it is mostly being generated from unoffical sellers of gc's. Now with the caps, these folks are less-strong then they would be otherwise. And I do agree that rangers are overpowered when working with a tank. I would agree something should be done to make rangers easier to kill (armor limits) or fighters to take a pentely with an item that would cancel some of the high damage from rangers. There is another thread for this discussion.

 

It is easy to bitch, but lets provide some soultions.

 

The adopt a newbie program which never really took off, is still the best way. Just do it unofficaly. Spend some time on IP, or at raven, If there is some noob that is intresting to talk to, take him/her by the hand, show them the ropes for a month, Advise them how the game mechanics works. Buy their items as they need to sell them, If we all did this, I bet we could double the pk population in a year.

 

Let us discuss some ideas about rangers and some solutions and provide some insightful soultions to Radu. The man is not un-reasonable. If we worked together I am sure he would listen and take us seriously. But we need something concreate and balanced before we really bug him about it :medieval:

 

Keep being ebul... If your an ebul player, great! It brings some much needed drama into game. Remember How FURY used to wind everyone up? How Luci you had your brod permatly attached to your fighting hand ^^ There is nothing wrong with normal game play. This being said, those of you that think drops are the most important thing. Please lay off the new players too bad until they get a decent bank account, stroage, It is fun to get a good drop, but for a few weeks old player to lose 20k-50k in a 3 seconds fight, discourages folks from playing.

 

ANyhow. I dont have all the solutions of course, this is just a few things to consider. I may be right/wrong but these are my feelings on it

 

Wizz

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yes, buying a high-end char isn't a real good idea... on PK server maybe yes, but ...

hmmm is el realy not more then PK and getting loot ? what about players like me who

just fight monsters ?

i guess there are lots of players who like to build up a guild for to work together to reach a goal...

but not realy many of them post here :medieval:

 

well the game has so much more to give then just being the 'biggest' fighter

 

hasn't radu build a real good alch / craft / manu ... system to give us more capabilities to

enjoy the game ???

 

what about me, i spended over 700000 gc for getting my ranging level up since january, cause im hunting

the novac creatures, and im good in it, have to get the yeti next :omg: ...should i get a penalty?

 

well its a problem when players have reached the highest level....well if you mean just a/d.

 

building bigger monsters to satisfy them ? well why not :)

 

in fighting i'm a noob, but i love to go with the tough fighters to get a castellan down :) and it works

'evil' and 'good' players with one goal, get this beast down :)

 

later there can be a contest maybe....who has the faster team :)

and why not building a 3rd continent, put the PK server on main, so you get all in one game...

 

so much more then just PK....but....the ones who buy a char are the ones who will loose :)

 

they missed the hard work to level up, and have no respect for the players who made the long way...

 

umm, ok....just my thoughts for now :)

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what about me, i spended over 700000 gc for getting my ranging level up since january, cause im hunting

the novac creatures, and im good in it, have to get the yeti next :) ...should i get a penalty?

Considering someone with like level 40 ranging can shred down a Yeti way easier than someone 40 a/d can, or even someone with 80 a/d... probably, yes :medieval:

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