Game ethics

[Ateh]

i was only joking nathen you are genuinely one of the only players on the forums who consistently thinks about the game from the viewpoint of new players

 

its a comendable thing, to have a guild such as PEN that obviously encourages helping and assisting new players in the first stages of thier life in El

 

keep up the vibe

[marack]

Well as most of you know there are some ethics in game that have been kept for a long time affecting most of the players attitude .

Like

1. "No bagjumping"

2. "Branch policy"

3. "Honorable PK "

4. "spawn serping"

 

 

I understand why some old players/guilds made those community rules, maybe at that time the players werent at so high levels and actually loosing some items or broke some other items - it would be hard to replace.

 

Did those community rules destroyed some aspects of the game? Was it a mistake to demonise some people and make them community outcasts? Do u think it would be to the community´s benefit for those rules to stop existing?

 

Even though some of these rules provide some "comfort" gaming time, i can see that they are destroying some parts of the game and the game eventually becomes a little boring each time.

 

I trully think game needs some "evil" , what are your thoughts about this

 

There are two obvious sets of rules that I'm aware of; EL Game Rules and Guild Rules. Some guilds may not have rules at all which is their perogative.

 

There is a third set of rules that I keep hearing about; "comminuty rules". This set is more elusive. Just ask a number of people, new and old, guild or guildess, and you will get a variety of rules with many different interpretations.

 

Maybe, some one with time on their hands should draft up a set of community rules and see how many guilds would actually sign up to them

 

Regarding "evil doers" are a component of the game dynamics and as long as "U Obey. U OK!" then they are here to stay.

[tork_unib]

I think the whole point of the 'community rules' is that they are basically a bunch of unwritten rules, based on treating people how you yourself would like to be treated.

 

Having said that, I think you could summerize it thus:

 

DON'T BE A PRICK

[Sithis]

DON'T BE A PRICK

 

why not?

[Vanyel]

Well as most of you know there are some ethics in game that have been kept for a long time affecting most of the players attitude .

Like

1. "No bagjumping"

2. "Branch policy"

3. "Honorable PK "

4. "spawn serping"

 

 

I understand why some old players/guilds made those community rules, maybe at that time the players werent at so high levels and actually loosing some items or broke some other items - it would be hard to replace.

 

Did those community rules destroyed some aspects of the game? Was it a mistake to demonise some people and make them community outcasts? Do u think it would be to the community´s benefit for those rules to stop existing?

 

Even though some of these rules provide some "comfort" gaming time, i can see that they are destroying some parts of the game and the game eventually becomes a little boring each time.

 

I trully think game needs some "evil" , what are your thoughts about this

 

I don't agree with any of the community rules you have quoted. Honestly, I hate any kind of community rules. They, often enough, are created post-factum to cover for one's own foolishness.

 

"No Bagjumping"

As far as I know (death)bags were never meant to be used in the way that would make bagjumping possible. If you decide on risking, you have to face consequences. The very same goes for people losing their belongings in case of dying.

 

"Branch Policy"

I'm not a big fan of brod, though, it's part of the game. Live with it or leave 'cos of it.

 

"Honorable PK"

Umm... what?

 

"Spawn serping"

Learn sharing. Nobody owns even a single spawn.

 

 

Let's stop the hypocrisy. You screw just admit it instead of shoving other people's faces with this or that 'community rule'.

 

Side question.

Who decides on what is or is not a community rule? What community? Do I need to be a part of it? If I don't feel I am a part of this community, should I follow these rules?

[tork_unib]

DON'T BE A PRICK

 

why not?

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't by any means. This is merely my rule-of-thumb interpertation of 'community rules'.

[korrode]

"Spawn serping"

Learn sharing. Nobody owns even a single spawn.

I don't give a shit if it's a "community rule" or not, if i'm on a single spawn and someone comes and starts attacking it, i'll be sure to make their EL life hell at every chance i get (and their guild's too).

 

With how combat training works in EL, "sharing" a single spawn just isn't feasible and both involved parties would be better off if the later comer went and found another already free spawn, even if all the other spawns of that creature are taken so they have to goto a slightly weaker creature, both parties are still better off, so not going to another spawn is plain stupid wasteful.

 

I'm just glad my fellow players who train the sort of creatures I do have all done enough training to know exactly what I mean and these days I don't really have to deal with nubs who can't do the simple math required to see that sharing a single spawn just wastes everyones time.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Korrode

[Tico]

Saying that comunity rules ruin the fun is absurd.

 

Ppl sometimes dont obey game rules. (Most got punished due to that, but not always since its impossible to mods cant prevent everything in game)

no one

 

If this happens to game rules, what to say about comunity rules, no one realy sticks on that. So how comes a rule that no one realy follows it will ruin someone else fun ingame.

 

If u think its fun to obey and be a nice person, do it.

 

If u think its fun to screw others, well, od it aswell

 

Just dont spect everybody likes you, each path you follow will lead you to be hated or respected by the comunity.

[Vanyel]

"Spawn serping"

Learn sharing. Nobody owns even a single spawn.

I don't give a shit if it's a "community rule" or not, if i'm on a single spawn and someone comes and starts attacking it, i'll be sure to make their EL life hell at every chance i get (and their guild's too).

 

Which is a solution, too. I completely do not care whether you or anybody else decide on 'protecting' their turf. I would say more, I prefer your solution over calling others 'outlawers', getting into stupid and useless disputes, and the like, based on a set of weird 'community' rules.

[Aislinn]

"Selective community" rules.

 

I would consider everyone here part of the EL community yet not everyone here cares about the "community" rules or had anything to do with deciding what they are or setting them up or wants to follow them. Nor are there any elected officials put in the position to think for the community.

 

Part of the game is the interaction and dynamics between the people who play here. As anywhere else, everyone has different morals and ethics and thoughts on what is appropriate behavior in a public setting. Some think "it's just a game" and think they can do whatever they want (not talking game rules here), and some take it as seriously as they take real life.

 

I personally think it's kind of silly...the game was set up to have some risk...you die, you lose stuff most likely and are LUCKY if you get it back. You want to gamble and use a bag for mixing or hauling stuff to storage...it's a GAMBLE, not a given right the stuff is YOURS. Could poof, could be bagjumped due to misclick or lag...you are GAMBLING. If you don't pay attention when doing trades, you might get scammed. If you just want uninterrupted level grinding mass-training for your a/d, go find a single player game.

 

EL wasn't designed to have a safety net or be everyone's morality judge so when YOU take risks or do something stupid, it protects you. It wasn't designed for safe and uninterrupted mass a/d level grinding, although that's what some of you try to use it for. It is a mmorpg, the major part of the game IS the interaction both good and bad.

 

If a certain behavior is allowable because of game design and game mechanics (not counting bugs or bug exploits or behavior that goes far enough to break game rules), get over it and move on and learn from the experience. You either want a mmorpg or you don't.

[hussam]

"Spawn serping"

Learn sharing. Nobody owns even a single spawn.

lmao, how can you exactly share a single spawn?

Edited July 1, 2010 by hussam

[nathanstenzel]

"Spawn serping"

Learn sharing. Nobody owns even a single spawn.

lmao, how can you exactly share a single spawn?

Sharing a single spawn on a multi-combat map is easier than on a single combat map. On a mult-combat map, you can fight the same critter at the same time (preferably with a weaker weapon or a creature above the fighter's combat level). The goal being to not kill the critter too fast so that both people get some xp from it.

 

For a single combat map, sharing a single spawn would mean taking turns. One person might fight while the other is busy with something or a person might fight the critter every other respawn so it is your turn, my turn, your turn, etc.

 

Granted I have noticed that a number of players are just too greedy and territorial for such simple concepts of sharing and some don't feel the other person has the right to the spawn in the first place, but really, Radu owns the spawns......not players.

[chr0nik]

That makes no sense nathan. As Korrode already pointed out, the xp/hr you'd get in the scenarios you suggest would be pointless. Whoever wanted to share the spawn and train every other one or train at the same time would get more xp and likely more drops training a lower level mob by themselves. Also as Korrode said, thank the gods the people who train to high levels mostly agree on spawn etiquette so this stuff is rarely an issue. The rest of EL can debate how to share spawns in such a manner.

 

It's not even a community rule or game ethics issue w.r.t. spawns. High a/d players understand that spawns are limited and if you ever expect to have good training sessions, you have to afford the same luxury to other players. That's the only reason places like yeti spawns, the feros cave & rot fchim double even work at all.

[hussam]

No offense nathan but a lot of what you said doesn't work. This isn't really your area of expertise. First of all, if two people multi a creature, only one person will get defense experience. The monster will direct it's hits to the person wearing the less armor (if equal armor, the weaker person with less defense..)

Taking tuns won't work either. It will result in very little hourly experience.

 

The "I have noticed that a number of players are just too greedy" is offensive too. You always try to portray fighters are greedy people who will sell their children for a spawn. That's really offensive and wrong.

 

Once you reach monsters like chims, getting serp spawned is something you are extremely unlikely to experience (unless it is guild vs guild issues). I've been training chims since forever and never seen one greedy trainer. Even people who don't really like me haven't serped me or exhibited greedy behavior. People DO know how to cooperate. Almost every time when all spawns are taken, people offer to PM me when they're done training so I can have the spawn.

[Uncertain]

Old habbits, long ass post. Dont read this, cuz may bore you to death lolz

 

I'll admit. I'm a greedy bastard. I'm very territorial when it comes to where exactly I sit before I log off. Honestly I can say Nathans post is inacurate. I wouldnt suggest sharing a spawn as stated already by someone for purpose to aquiring exp. Its not feasable imo, unless your trying to take down a creature much larger then you and your pals and are wanting to share the profit from the drop(s). Or you and your pals are doing it mostly for enjoyment. If not these cases, and souly for exp aquired only. You would be better off finding a different spawn for yourself to train on.

 

However, I can't say in "community ethical" terms. That I've never serped, or interfered with someones training a/d. Though my reasons are positive. For example other day I saved someones life, by killing a yeti that appeared to me to be beefed up on steriods because its sister was killed by a drugged out crazy imp. Did the individual get agrivated? Of course. But credit is due, because the individual didnt go off onto some long speach preachering me how I am corrupted and he is all mighty rightous. Some just dont see the positiveness of my actions. Though I told that individual to have fun, and that I wouldnt be helping again. (Cuz honestly, how often do you really see a steriod using yeti? Maybe once in a lifetime?)And my word is golden.

 

I think when people go back on they're word, is where many get the idea that all people that do etc, are bad people. Its a shame. Only because not only is that person victimized, outcasted from getting to know some fun people only because they have done etc. But anyone that has a interest in helping, being friends with that individual, may also become outcasted by "community ethical" voters. I have seen a entire guild break a alliance with a long lasting ally, only because the ally guild invited 1 individual to join they're guild. I bet this isnt uncommon. Though why cant that 1 individual just be the magnet to the negativity, if its is negativity? How is it that a different guild can protest to another guild, you do this or else? I think that part of community ethics is a little funked up to say the least. Long Friendships, alliances, and etc are ruined only because a handfull of people have a hard-on for 1 individual.

 

I think some need to loosen the ego bowtie a little bit. And try to understand that we all, are only in control of our own actions.

[wuffzel]

ummm, sorry xanthus, i didn't realy answered your 1st post

 

so do we need evil beside the good....hmmm

 

not easy to say...

 

to be honest as i started the game, all was anonymous for me...had the idea to

follow players and get their stuff if they die, well i never found a db as a newbe...lol

 

so a week later i got invited to LLL and there i found players who are working hard for

their levels....without even thinking about getting gc by bagjumping or so...

we try to save and return every bag we find...why not, its our way.

 

and we are not poor on gc, cause most of us have patience and take our time to level

and earn gc out of the skills we level...

 

well and i often get upset if i get bagjumped or if someone steels drops from invasion, but to

be honest again...im only upset a short time...i find allways players to chat with to calm down.

 

so yes, sometimes the game need 'evil' players to keep us up

 

and as i say, sometimes i join the 'pure' fighters to have some fun in invasions...

 

but aislinn made it clear and thats also what i think, this game is not for getting a/d as fast as possible only,

 

i spent lots of hours exploring, and i found some ogre and orc spawns where i was training allone for days !!!!

and i guess for cyclops, which i train now i will find a nice and lonely spawn too...

 

don't know how many secret places are left....ummm im getting away from the beginning of the thread, sorry...

 

so i would say : yes el needs 'evil' players too...but please NO SCAMMERS, and NO INVISIBLE THIEVES ... ups sorry

 

if i get bagjumped i want to know, 'who was it' .... so, xanthus i hope i got back to your question

 

only my thoughts

Edited July 1, 2010 by wuffzel

[nathanstenzel]

You guys didn't get the point of what I posted earlier. Only the first scenario of a multi-combat map with a stronger critter would really have a chance of getting you much xp.

 

Taking turns on a single-combat map would not be much xp, but would let you get some xp while distracted or multi-tasking or needing to cool off your dis ring.

 

Do you guys always assume that everything is always about xp/hour? Ever think someone might not need to pack the maximum xp/hour into their play time to enjoy it?

 

Hussam asked how you could share a spawn. He did not ask if it would be feasible.

 

I said "greedy" because I have had some people try to push me out of a triple spawn area and take all three damned critters and cuss at me for trying to take one. Greedy ass bastard. That was only a few kills an hour too. Meanwhile, if someone comes in and wants to train where I am training, I just ask that they share nicely. I would often point the person to the nearest ogre in the PV cave, because obviously, I can't fight two ogres in two locations at the same time. It has been a while since I used that cave, but I still share. I try not to be greedy and shoo people away when they want to train near me.

 

Please excuse me if wanting to keep something to yourself instead of being willing to share it is not your definition of greedy. It is my definition of it. I never accused anyone of selling their offspring for a spawn. XD

[Ateh]

It depends how you look at it, ive shared multi spawns with tonnes of people just fine, but ive also been to melinis before and seen someone fighting every fucking creature on the map after they were assisted in doing so by one guy luring all the mobs to him, which makes you mad when he tells you ''dont attack or we serp every time you train''

 

go with what your heart tells you, if you want to be a dick just dont expect anyone to like you or give you much help in return

[korrode]

You guys didn't get the point of what I posted earlier. Only the first scenario of a multi-combat map with a stronger critter would really have a chance of getting you much xp.

...

Do you guys always assume that everything is always about xp/hour? Ever think someone might not need to pack the maximum xp/hour into their play time to enjoy it?

When we're talking about training, where the idea is that you're training your combat skill, increasing your levels; yeah exp p/h is a key point.

 

No one's talking about when you (and maybe some friends) go and try some stronger creatures to see if you can kill them, only for the sake of victory against the strong foe.

 

Taking turns on a single-combat map would not be much xp, but would let you get some xp while distracted or multi-tasking or needing to cool off your dis ring.

Again if you're having to use diss rings whilst training, you're doing it wrong.

 

I said "greedy" because I have had some people try to push me out of a triple spawn area and take all three damned critters and cuss at me for trying to take one. Greedy ass bastard. That was only a few kills an hour too. Meanwhile, if someone comes in and wants to train where I am training, I just ask that they share nicely. I would often point the person to the nearest ogre in the PV cave, because obviously, I can't fight two ogres in two locations at the same time. It has been a while since I used that cave, but I still share. I try not to be greedy and shoo people away when they want to train near me.

 

Please excuse me if wanting to keep something to yourself instead of being willing to share it is not your definition of greedy. It is my definition of it. I never accused anyone of selling their offspring for a spawn. XD

Well considering all these last posts on this topic have specifically been about singe spawn training, why did you even mention it in relation to this?

Half your post that is seemingly in opposition to what we're saying is a rant about something that happened to you at a multi-spawn.

We ain't talking about multi-spawns.

 

Seriously nathan, 4 damn years we've been on these forums and the whole time you've felt some need to vehemently inject into combat discussions like you're an authority on the subject... how about you go utilise this combat system that you're so willing to debate the technicalities of with people who have 10+ times the experience you do, and actually crack 100 a/d?

Edited July 2, 2010 by Korrode

[groomsh]

Seriously nathan, 4 damn years we've been on these forums and the whole time you've felt some need to vehemently inject into combat discussions like you're an authority on the subject... how about you go utilise this combat system that you're so willing to debate the technicalities of with people who have 10+ times the experience you do, and actually crack 100 a/d?

Well i can see what he is trying to say.

I'm in no way a fighter, i even don't like training a/d and do it VERY rarely, but i guess this does not disqualifies me from topics about combat.

Why is his voice or mine or somebody else considered as not needed ? Is it because you really can't read opinions other then yours ?

I know that you and other players that do (or have done) fighting/training 24x7x365 are very picky about spawns and spawn policies etc.

On one hand i understand it, as spawns are the only limited resource in the game, but on the other hand is it really needed to say GTFO to someone who is only walking by (yes this happened to me several times) ?

I've seen lot of a/d trainers and overall it's not a minority of them who are in my opinion "greedy". You can't deny that. It is very nice that yeti trainers do have some spawn policy and they stick to it, but how many players do train yeti ?

Also the xp/hour thing ... i personally had never that feeling that if i don't make the maximum exp per hour, it's no fun. But maybe this IS why fighters do play this game ...

[korrode]

I'm in no way a fighter, i even don't like training a/d and do it VERY rarely, but i guess this does not disqualifies me from topics about combat.

Why is his voice or mine or somebody else considered as not needed ? Is it because you really can't read opinions other then yours ?

It's not about being disqualified from discussion about combat. It's a public forum, anyone will post on any topic they like.

It's about having the personal integrity to identify your own strengths and weaknesses, your own rates of knowledge and capability, and act appropriately.

I'd never have the audacity to debate the trials and tribulations of training manufacturing with Nathan, because with my experience with that skill, which has equated to level 32 in manu, I would never presume to grasp the the big picture or all the related aspects as well as Nathan with his 82 manu does.

 

 

 

I know that you and other players that do (or have done) fighting/training 24x7x365 are very picky about spawns and spawn policies etc.

On one hand i understand it, as spawns are the only limited resource in the game, but on the other hand is it really needed to say GTFO to someone who is only walking by (yes this happened to me several times) ?

I've seen lot of a/d trainers and overall it's not a minority of them who are in my opinion "greedy". You can't deny that. It is very nice that yeti trainers do have some spawn policy and they stick to it, but how many players do train yeti ?

Also the xp/hour thing ... i personally had never that feeling that if i don't make the maximum exp per hour, it's no fun. But maybe this IS why fighters do play this game ...

See you of course can express any opinions you want, but with the amount of assumption you make don't be surprised if people are lining up to shoot you down.

 

1. I don't train "24x7x365", in comparison to some people who've played as long as I have, my a/d is low.

2. I have never in my EL life said "GTFO" or anything similar to anyone at a spawn until they actually, repeatedly attacked the spawn I was trying to train. Don't make baseless assumptions about me and what my spawn etiquette may or may not be.

3. LOL, It's not just Yeti trainers where the majority have 'good' spawn etiquette. The vast majority from fluffy's and up know exactly what I mean when I say "sharing single spawns is pointless and wasteful, and people shouldn't engage a creature someone else is already training if they don't want them to." Oh look, surprise surprise, "fluffy's and up" is beyond where you and Nathan are at with a/d, what a coincidence.

4. Exp peh hour is not generally the only thing 'higher levels' are trying to achieve with their training, but yeah, it's always one of the key things.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Korrode

[Garnoo]

You joined July 2006 your too new to know what it was like back then. You missed a lot. Also don't let your hatred of me cloud your memory or change history. I was a very skilled player although I quit by the time u were high enough to pk. Open your eyes to what's going on here the game is a ghost town compared to how many players we used to have it should have grown not shrank.

You like my join date better? I didn't join the forums right away. In fact considering that you made forum account the day you made the char too I might just be older. Anyway the point is I can vouch for everything Korrode said by now and knowing him I could probably say the same thing about what he will say in future. But some people simply fail to see the logic in his words. I am by no means a Korrode worshipper or anything (never was and never will be) but one has to be blind not to see the game knowledge he has and how his suggestions could radically improve the game.

 

EDIT: Biggest pk days I've witnessed were by far the no drop weekends from the TooM era. kf, td, dpa and nca were all packed and I mean really PACKED. There were so many players you could barely see anything. Maybe you have witnessed better days (which I highly doubt) and in that case forget I said anything.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Garnoo

[groomsh]

Oh look, surprise surprise, "fluffy's and up" is beyond where you and Nathan are at with a/d, what a coincidence.

Well you do realize that i meet players in game with higher a/d then mine ? Being not able to train/fight monsters from fluffy and up does not mean that i am blind

I don't have to train these critters to see how players training them behave. Yes of course my view is probably not right as i don't spare that much time on these spawns, but this could be the problem of all who are not pure fighters.

Probably the problem is in the way how fighters treat mixers... If i'm sent to GTFO several times by different trainers, then you can't blame me that i say fighters are greedy.

[korrode]

If 5 trainers say "GTFO" to you, what about the other hundreds you've walked past in your EL life that didn't say that?

Or are you seriously saying that more than half the times you walk past high a/d'ers training they say "GTFO" (or whatever)?

 

I don't think so

I seriously doubt that your interactions with "fighters" equate to a legitimate claim that 'most' of them are "greedy".

I think you're just doing what humans do; applying the bad actions of a small minority to an entire group/culture/race/whatever.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Korrode

[groomsh]

I seriously doubt that your interactions with "fighters" equate to a legitimate claim that 'most' of them are "greedy".

I think you're just doing what humans do; applying the bad actions of a small minority to an entire group/culture/race/whatever.

Yes i completely agree, this is exactly what i'm doing. If i go and train VERY rarely and out of these very few training sessions i see such behavior then it's logical to say:

Most fighters are greedy except of playerX, playerY etc ..

My former opinion was that most fighters are ok, but i changed it according to my own experience which was overall negative - this is also what humans do.