Pin Poll

[Nova]

Mare Bulangiu can't be pinned, for some reason this is also the mob that is always killed last in invasions.

Probably as it is the toughest mob.. for the same reason the goblins and ogres tend to get killed first.

 

Last night invasion with Robin Tell. I log in and 3 monsters left. Been like that for a while too. There were few going to take the MBs, but one died due to lag.

Not many fighters take on Ice Dragons either, but surprisingly the Iceys die in invasions the moment someone finds one. No risk.

If they were pinnable, there'd be 0 mobs.

 

Thats probably why Radu made MBs non pinnable. Those MBs and icys came after loads and loads of giants and nasps and other stuff, and they were thrown in at the end. Its a good bet that all the rangers ran out of arrows and had had all their fun already. (Seriously, even with the great xp of robin tell, I can only click so many times before my finger wants to fall off). Also by the time the rest of the invasion mobs had been cleared it was that time of day/night where there are 150 players or less logged on and probably 1/3 of those are afk. Ask in a few hours and I bet you will find a few fighters, a few summoners and some rangers and mages who will want to team up and go work on those mobs.

 

Killing mare bulangiu is a team effort, the way it is supposed to be on top monsters. There are two opinions to this. Those who like some challenge and those who like easy levels. I always thought EL was supporting the challenge.

 

Funny how you are all about supporting a challenge now that you have used the 'easy way' to get your own levels. Not that pinning the regular dragons in their caves is that easy unless you spend hours there doing it. EVERYTHING gets easy with practice.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Nova

[Aislinn]

Killing mare bulangiu is a team effort, the way it is supposed to be on top monsters. There are two opinions to this. Those who like some challenge and those who like easy levels. I always thought EL was supporting the challenge.

Funny how you are all about supporting a challenge now that you have used the 'easy way' to get your own levels. Not that pinning the regular dragons in their caves is that easy unless you spend hours there doing it. EVERYTHING gets easy with practice.

Dugur's hipocrisy or lack of it (I am NOT commenting or judging on that here btw) is not the issue nor should it have anything to do with the issue. Just because one person took advantage of something that is a bug or an abused intended feature, doesn't mean it should stay so everyone else can continue to abuse it too. (There are plenty of other issues that fall into this category btw, not just pinning). This is by no means the first time this subject has come up and been debated about, although it appears to be the first time it's shown up in general chat in forums.

I also don't think that the argument that it is the only way archery is useful is a particularly valid one. Useful is not always about gc per hour or exp per hour. Nor does everything in EL have to be profitable. Whatever happened to just doing something because it's fun and different? Maybe people should look at archery as a sport skill, or maybe some things could be added less abusable. Again, something abused shouldn't stay just because there is nothing immediately available to replace it and provide the drops and exp you all have been getting accustomed to.

Pinning is the easy way, it looks like nothing better than a game flaw, and really isn't a challenge unless you call all that clicking on a helpless creature that should be invincible a challenge.

[Nova]

Killing mare bulangiu is a team effort, the way it is supposed to be on top monsters. There are two opinions to this. Those who like some challenge and those who like easy levels. I always thought EL was supporting the challenge.

Funny how you are all about supporting a challenge now that you have used the 'easy way' to get your own levels. Not that pinning the regular dragons in their caves is that easy unless you spend hours there doing it. EVERYTHING gets easy with practice.

Dugur's hipocrisy or lack of it (I am NOT commenting or judging on that here btw) is not the issue nor should it have anything to do with the issue.

But it does and it should. His post smacks of ulterior motive. He gets to #2 or #1 on the rankings list and THEN suddenly has mixed feelings toward pinning? I myself don't care much about my ranks, although it is fun to see your name climb up the list, I'm willing to bet some nice armor that a lot of the people in the top 10 to 20 don't take as cavalier an attitude as I do about it though. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the ranking list as motivation to have fun while playing. But getting to the top then making a post that has the potential to incite a big game change that will make it very hard for anyone else to get ranks.....sucks, even if it brings up valid issues.

 

Just because one person took advantage of something that is a bug or an abused intended feature, doesn't mean it should stay so everyone else can continue to abuse it too. (There are plenty of other issues that fall into this category btw, not just pinning). This is by no means the first time this subject has come up and been debated about, although it appears to be the first time it's shown up in general chat in forums.

Being able to pin (mostly) doesn't seem like a game flaw to me. If we want to look at it from a rl perspective, archers in battle would shoot off walls, cliffs, trees, houses, anyplace high to be able to do maximum damage with minimal risk. Sport archers now use tree stands to hunt bigger more dangerous game like bears. Some of the pin spots in EL seem pretty unrealistic but maybe they can be replaced with higher more realistic places where you not only need to lure the monster to, but you also need to tele to range to get to it. There were some suggestions about arrows that freeze the target in place for awhile, those are interesting ideas too.

 

I also don't think that the argument that it is the only way archery is useful is a particularly valid one. Useful is not always about gc per hour or exp per hour. Nor does everything in EL have to be profitable. Whatever happened to just doing something because it's fun and different? Maybe people should look at archery as a sport skill, or maybe some things could be added less abusable. Again, something abused shouldn't stay just because there is nothing immediately available to replace it and provide the drops and exp you all have been getting accustomed to.

Pinning might not be the only way the archery skill itself is useful but it is one of the only efficient and non bank breaking ways to level your skill to a useful place to help out with MBs in invasions and other similar activities. It's hard to see ranging as a sport skill when it takes so much gc to use it. Even if you just like to range and go around one shooting rabbits and beavers and such its still pretty expensive with all the misses. Personally, I never expect to make gc when I go ranging, even if I am ranging a dragon, but it is nice to have a way to use the skill without it draining all your gc.

 

Pinning is the easy way, it looks like nothing better than a game flaw, and really isn't a challenge unless you call all that clicking on a helpless creature that should be invincible a challenge.

In an earlier post you mentioned that you have range level 22 without pinning anything. Thats a great and tough level to get to without pinning, I know because my alt character has range level 26 and I don't pin with her. I am going to assume (and please correct me if I am wrong) that you haven't tried to pin before. I think you should try it, you will see it is not very easy to do (unless you do it multiple times a day for awhile) If you would like, I would be happy to go up to the red dragon and show you. I'm horrible at it so it will take awhile, but if you would like to try, contact me in game. Pinning on the cliffs in the bethel invasions with 100s of mobs running around is much different then running around under the dragons feet trying to maneuver him where you want him to be.

[Aislinn]

My point was, dugur is not the only one who has brought it up. He might be the only one YOU have seen bring it up, but the issue has come up many times before him by other people who were not in dugur's position. So the issue has nothing to do with what he has done or not done.

 

And as to rl examples, I have nothing against archers being up on walls or cliffs out of range of some creatures that are weak or that can't climb, but I would bet if you shot at a dragon in rl, you would not be able to pin it anywhere. Birds would fly away or at you, some creatures can climb, some would run away, some would come attack back. I really can't think of any scenario where it is logical something is pinned helpless unless multiple people have it trapped (which again, is an acceptable pinning in EL as teamwork).

 

Saying pinning is needed to level up archery until useful is like saying FE's should automatically make themselves until the player reaches an alch level high enough to make HE's.

[MLCA]

And as to rl examples, I have nothing against archers being up on walls or cliffs out of range of some creatures that are weak or that can't climb, but I would bet if you shot at a dragon in rl, you would not be able to pin it anywhere.

 

yea i shot a dragon last week in my backyard i had to run into my house cuz he came after me

[Nova]

My point was, dugur is not the only one who has brought it up. He might be the only one YOU have seen bring it up, but the issue has come up many times before him by other people who were not in dugur's position. So the issue has nothing to do with what he has done or not done.

 

And as to rl examples, I have nothing against archers being up on walls or cliffs out of range of some creatures that are weak or that can't climb, but I would bet if you shot at a dragon in rl, you would not be able to pin it anywhere. Birds would fly away or at you, some creatures can climb, some would run away, some would come attack back. I really can't think of any scenario where it is logical something is pinned helpless unless multiple people have it trapped (which again, is an acceptable pinning in EL as teamwork).

 

Saying pinning is needed to level up archery until useful is like saying FE's should automatically make themselves until the player reaches an alch level high enough to make HE's.

 

My point is that his timing in bringing up the issue is....suspect at best. So the reason that we are all debating the issue again is part of 'the issue' itself. But I do see the point you are making too.

 

Do you know where I can get a dragon irl?? I would get a purple one and name it Pansy and put a little hat on it. Seriously that would be so cool. Hehehe sorry, couldn't resist. RL dragons gave me the giggles and I totally understand that you meant RL as in dragons that we know from books or movies. I think you and I are working toward the same end on this part of the issue though. But it seems like there is only so much realism that can be added into the game in terms of creatures climbing or being able to get you if it looks like they are tall enough, or looking like they are trying to attack you from around an obstacle. Personally when I have a trapped dragon I like to pretend that it is trying to get me but can't. Feel free to call me weird. Maybe I am wrong and it isn't hard to add these things, but I don't know for sure.

 

I didn't say pinning was needed to level up, I said it was one of the only efficient ways to do it without blowing mass amounts of gold when you accidentally miss the bear and shoot 6 arrows into the lamp post. The alch skill where you can harv and mix all yourself for almost no gc and the range skill where you need to spend gc to level isn't a great comparison. Even low level alchers can make useful stuff while leveling, ranging isn't useful in terms of actually hitting things reliably until about level 13-15 and it takes a lot of gold to get there. Unfortunately efficient things are often 'abused' by some, which leads us to this lively and entertaining debate.

[Jaclaw]

You can't kill top mobs alone without using something like pinning ? yes, but why are you against it? why anyone should be able to kill top mob alone in mmorpg ? One shouldn't. So now lets imagine we removed this 'feature', 'bug' or whatever one wants to call this and we have to have more than 1 people to kill it.

Little stupid story

You need fighter with high lvl and with top armor and weapon that deals dmg of other kind than physical because dragon has too much armor to be hit by sword:Everything is right, imagine killing dragon with piece of wood or steel-impossible.

Ok so we need someone to deal some damage while he is busy with me, wait wait busy with me?! i have 300 hp and it hits for 100 and my top grade armor doesn't help at all! But i'm brave lets try anyway, ok hit hit restore hit hit hit restore ok diss tele, yeah i took some hp of him!!! WHAT ? 200hp?! and it has 5500, no way i can do it alone. Ok lets get some weaker people to help me, ya thats good idea. Ok i got some people lets try again....oops i attacked first but he ate all my friends when they attacked. Ok ok lets try one more this time i give them bows and arrows oh and lets try some magic....ok ok works well but now i have to flee because i have no more mana...ok great i'm fine...WHAT?! he ate them all after i fled....ok this time this one will heal me while i fight the dragon ...okok works fine.....WHAT? HELL?! HOW?! oh we got lagged, yeah i have 300 hp he kills me in 3 hits...yes i need more hp...but i can't! i have max i can have...and that one guy wasn't enough to heal me at all, i need 2 at least. Ok 2 healing 1 ranging and i'm tanking ....10min later...yeah we killed the beast now lets check what it dropped....Ohhhhhh dragon scale wonderful! it has be worth millions! it's been so hard to kill this beast...ok lets go to market.....hey does anyone want to buy dragon scale? yes i want to, i will pay you 4k coins. WHAT?!

End of little stupid talk

 

Here's an idea!

So first of all we need: better drops from mobs we would like to be killed in party

2-nd of all...we need someone with more hp to tank those mobs and someone with ability to keep mob attention on himself while other people kill it, in other game that would be tank with ability to keep aggro on himself. You've been playing with changing form for a while, why not make form that has 5-10 times more hp and HUGE damage reduction like 50%+ and skill that keep mob attention on him. Of course it won't be this 'human' form so he can't use spells-heal himself

Now we need someone who can heal our new tank, called cleric in mmorpgs, so now lets make another form, lets call it fairy form, it should have more mana -5-10 times more, like tank's hp and skill that allows him to heal, all kinds of heals, single, himself, group etc etc

 

That are just ideas, they would require lot of work to make it work, but if you want people to be more socialable while killing mobs, thats the way.

All the abilities in transformed form should heavily depend on player skill like a/d for tank and magic for healer, not like you can be super strong with 10 lvl char. And....dragons case is lost already make some new monsters with new uber drops

P.S.

Can't be bother to read it again to check mistakes now will do it later

[Tico]

About pinning... let rangers pin whenever they want to... its none of our business how do they train or or how do the go kill stuff.

 

I dont think that only ppl with 140 + a/d should be able to kill dragons, rangers/summoners/magicians all high leveled player in a combat skill should have a way to defeat strong mobs.

 

So let then pin and have their fun.

 

Binding stone price went to skies because of easy dragon scales. One person can easily farm 40 scales a day if they invest time in the game. There is not enough binders to convert the scales into armours naturally, but the EL shop brings plenty in game. This is income for developers, but for many players it eventually is shown in increased prices for items. 20k gc / binding is doable at current dragon armour prices...

Bind stone got more expensive due to $$/GC convertion rate that raised a lot, same as rosto or any shop item.

Im positivelly sure that this has nothing to do with scales farming, but to GC farming... too much gold in game, the less value it has to buy stoof. That includes binding stones

 

When arrow is shot, gc is removed from game (train ammunition only from npc at 10gc ea.) This is good. In Bethel invasion I end up positive gc. Even basic dragon can drop the amount of gc spent on ammunition. This is the top lvls with ap, same ppl that actually train ranging. Not saying ranging doesn't remove gc from game, but that having pinning in game doesn't really increase gc removal.

Oh yeah and how much gc is removed from the game with high a/d ppl farming dragons?

usualy none. only a bit of HE/SR, so a few gc is better then none imo.

 

 

Removing the pin from game will only unbalance it back to top a/d being the only ones that can kill dragons, wich is not what i want from EL.

[Aislinn]

Hey, why are you all picking on me for the rl examples? I didn't start that!!!

[PaulB]

Hey, why are you all picking on me for the rl examples? I didn't start that!!!

 

Because of all people to relate dragons to rl the one least expected to do so would be you

 

I laughed out loud when I read that post about a dragon irl

 

 

Thanks

[Dugur]

Funny how you are all about supporting a challenge now that you have used the 'easy way' to get your own levels. Not that pinning the regular dragons in their caves is that easy unless you spend hours there doing it. EVERYTHING gets easy with practice.

 

Actually I've been supporting the challenge for what... 2 years? Took screenies of it and gave to mods so it'd be known to devs. Showed it to mods in action. I think I have even pmed straight to Radu about it too. And this is way back before there was AP introduced...

[Nova]

Funny how you are all about supporting a challenge now that you have used the 'easy way' to get your own levels. Not that pinning the regular dragons in their caves is that easy unless you spend hours there doing it. EVERYTHING gets easy with practice.

 

Actually I've been supporting the challenge for what... 2 years? Took screenies of it and gave to mods so it'd be known to devs. Showed it to mods in action. I think I have even pmed straight to Radu about it too. And this is way back before there was AP introduced...

 

If thats true, then I apologize. I still do find the timing of your curiosity of the public opinion convenient considering it would be very difficult to get to your ranking in ranging without the use of pinning.

[csiga]

I see no direct relation between binding price and pinning.

 

I think binding price goes up more like for two reason:

- hard to find nowadays,

- people buys from shop in bulk and tries to sell it a much higher price that its worth to reach better $->gc conversion rate as result

 

If pinning is a result of a bug then maybe removed in the future and Ent's decision if the players can use this bug or not.

 

Following this logic, summoning a huge mass of rats/rabbits to keep the dragon hits away also can be considered as bug.

 

 

 

 

Pinning is the game feature/bug that allows freezing of monster so you can cause ranged damage on them without getting in hand to hand combat. Mostly seen in Bethel invasions, also common at dragons.

 

Mare Bulangiu can't be pinned, for some reason this is also the mob that is always killed last in invasions.

 

Binding stone price went to skies because of easy dragon scales. One person can easily farm 40 scales a day if they invest time in the game. There is not enough binders to convert the scales into armours naturally, but the EL shop brings plenty in game. This is income for developers, but for many players it eventually is shown in increased prices for items. 20k gc / binding is doable at current dragon armour prices...

 

Having top level monsters highly vulnerable to single person makes no sense. What happened to Dragon epicness?

 

Some spawns were already made unpinnable ages ago. There obviosly were reasons for this, why not finish the job?

 

Bethel invasion last wave is cleared by ranging from safety of cliffs, no challenge, no risk. Just slaughter fest. Later on when there's more room for fighters (risk of dying becomes small enough) the top levels can finish it off but with risking death on lag spike, disconnect, gangbang etc. Ranger has no such risk.

 

When arrow is shot, gc is removed from game (train ammunition only from npc at 10gc ea.) This is good. In Bethel invasion I end up positive gc. Even basic dragon can drop the amount of gc spent on ammunition. This is the top lvls with ap, same ppl that actually train ranging. Not saying ranging doesn't remove gc from game, but that having pinning in game doesn't really increase gc removal.

 

Omg it can't be removed now, too many have gained advantage of the pin it would just be so unfair!! Hypocrite! Yeah, poll option has the rangers opinions. Some might actually admit, just so we know how many omg hypocrites there are.

 

There has been no talk of pin removing by dev team that I'd have heard, just curious of opinions. Share them.

Edited February 14, 2010 by csiga

[Shujral]

Funny how you are all about supporting a challenge now that you have used the 'easy way' to get your own levels. Not that pinning the regular dragons in their caves is that easy unless you spend hours there doing it. EVERYTHING gets easy with practice.

 

Actually I've been supporting the challenge for what... 2 years? Took screenies of it and gave to mods so it'd be known to devs. Showed it to mods in action. I think I have even pmed straight to Radu about it too. And this is way back before there was AP introduced...

 

If thats true, then I apologize. I still do find the timing of your curiosity of the public opinion convenient considering it would be very difficult to get to your ranking in ranging without the use of pinning.

 

I think you overestimate how much he cares about staying on top of the rankings...

 

 

Here's an idea!

So first of all we need: better drops from mobs we would like to be killed in party

2-nd of all...we need someone with more hp to tank those mobs and someone with ability to keep mob attention on himself while other people kill it, in other game that would be tank with ability to keep aggro on himself. You've been playing with changing form for a while, why not make form that has 5-10 times more hp and HUGE damage reduction like 50%+ and skill that keep mob attention on him. Of course it won't be this 'human' form so he can't use spells-heal himself

Now we need someone who can heal our new tank, called cleric in mmorpgs, so now lets make another form, lets call it fairy form, it should have more mana -5-10 times more, like tank's hp and skill that allows him to heal, all kinds of heals, single, himself, group etc etc

 

Good ideas. Some thoughts:

 

-Mobs killed in parties: Sounds like fun, provided that fighters have no expectation of profiting or even breaking even. Losses should be expected.

 

-Tanks/Clerics: More shape shifters would be awesome:

rhino glyph:
+150 health
+5 defense
+5 evasion
+60 armor (remember, no gear...)
-90% attack
-90% damage
-automatic CL = 1 (high aggro concept) 
-2x as susceptible to all magic (both remote heal for fighting mobs and harms to keep from abuse in PK)

Stats are just guidlines ofc.

 

All the abilities in transformed form should heavily depend on player skill like a/d for tank and magic for healer, not like you can be super strong with 10 lvl char.

I don't think this would be an issue either way, since its already monstrously expensive to level shape shifters....Not many lvl 10s have 2 mill for lvl 12 phoenix...

Edited February 14, 2010 by Shujral

[Zephlix]

If it's the pinning your worried about, just do an invasion on a differ map, bethal invasions are good cause it helps all classes to level up not just the ebul fighters

[XenaMT]

Sounds like fun, provided that fighters have no expectation of profiting or even breaking even. Losses should be expected.

 

For a second, I thought you were talking about manu

[Miiks]

I think it's bit hypocritical to ask pinning to stay, since people cried about the pinning bug, where you could pin the dragon by going inside (yes inside) it's tail. It was just same situation as this, but since dugur was practically only one who got benefit from the bug, it was removed.

 

After that dugur started to farm dragons with gohan. Again people cried that it's too easy to kill a dragon with harm *boohoohoo* and voila! Dragon got magic resistance. And they were even TEAMING the dragon and sharing the profit. Soo... Now since there dozens, even hundreds of people who get benefit from this bug / feature, they keep crying that it has to stay. All you need is decent ran lvl and some AP pots. And you can kill it alone w/o help. IMO that's bit pathetic. Or actually it's really pathetic.

 

This is even worse thing, since it drops the price of dragon scales. When dugur and gohan were farming dragons, there were more demand on the market than resources. The price was high and "real" fighters who actually killed the dragon with their melee skills got still good profit. Now it's not very profitable to kill the dragon melee, since you get much smaller profit (I'm not sure if you actually lose gc by doing so).

[ProHibited]

I don't see why melee should be the most profitable skill for killing monsters. For ranging, there is no alternative (yet) to make removing 'pinning' a real option.

[Miiks]

I don't see why melee should be the most profitable skill for killing monsters. For ranging, there is no alternative (yet) to make removing 'pinning' a real option.

I agree, but soon ranging is only profitable way to kill a dragon. That's the problem. It's pushing dragon sclales's prices so down that it's not smart to risk your 32k rost for really small profit you get from killing dragon.

 

Remove pinning and start farming dragons like dug and gohan made earlier (edit: just with harm)? Get a tank and then you can safely shoot it from safe distance. Easy solution.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Miiks

[Dilly]

Not everything should have to be profitable, especially killing some mythical epic monster like a dragon.

[Miiks]

Not everything should have to be profitable, especially killing some mythical epic monster like a dragon.

Not everything should be so easy, especially killing some mythical epic monster like a dragon.

[maximos]

i agree with Dugur. haven't read the enitre thread(so maybe this has already been said).

 

Dragons should be feckin' powerful.

 

 

I have an idea; lose the pin, but make Dragons have high def penalty when fighting more than 30 opponents or something.

 

This way, you can still kill them but it takes effort. this will also increase guild activity and togetherness..

 

 

 

 

..and i it wasn't for togetherness.. none of us would be alive ;D

[Wizzy]

I agree with this thread

 

The dragons are too easy to be pinned. / farmed.

[Zephlix]

I to agree that dragons should be more powerful, as for ranging and dragons, dragons should be able to hit rangers with firebreath or just fly up and eat or hit em.

 

I dislike pinning, i am a ranger but it is true that rangers would be of no use Maybe increase the number of platforms on maps so there should be more higher areas that rangers scan shoot down on, like climbing or tele a tree. of course a giant shold be able to knock them to ground if in a tree, and a dragon or hawk should be able to fly up and hit one in a tree or on the cliff in bethel while giants may only be able to hit players on the lower cliffs.

 

I think barricades would also assist rangers if pinning is taken out which was already stated.

 

Maybe adjust the effect of a creature coming towards or fleeing a character that shoots it pending on stats or creature ability to hit higher elevated player(s).

 

I think pinning should vary depend on the map and location, like if on a wall of a city should vary pendiing on the distance of the creature able to get to or reach target, maybe after getting hit 5/6 times cause it can't seem to get you up there, or beyond a gate the creature should flee so it doesn't die. (Although this may be more difficult code to implement) make a ranger chase or hunt it more.

 

I and a guildie like confusion pinning where will keep a animal in between us and one shoots as the creature goes twords the other, ( a tactical form of pinning)

 

oh maybe another ideas for dragons, may be we need a new metal that can only pierce a live dragon's hide (on a dragon not gear made from scales) for i think normal metals would not have the strength or magical properties to even itch a dragon.

[dipi]

I voted i like it, and im a ranger.

 

Besides i only could pin ACs, dragons or invasion mobs, because of my MM perk. ... well ACs is too much risk since the spawns in non pk maps are double.

 

Ranging is a costly skill, if the pinning is removed it will be costly AND boring.

 

I can see an evil light at the end of the road... I see Dugur increasing his gcs in the sto because pinning was removed and now he controls the ice dragon's scales market (which i'm sure he already has a lot of them in his sto).