Make gc & item selling for real money illegal

[Lorck]

Dugur: once again, you don't need to remove the BM to be good for the game, just slowing it down would be nice.

 

Furthermore, people should work in real life etc, not be like Liam aka Luigi. If a person is in a poor country where $100 can be matter of life & death, how they could afford a computer with a 3D graphic card & internet connection to farm gold in EL anyways?

Edited November 19, 2009 by Lorck

[Infamous]

hahaha, omg still not able to read it?

 

BM competes with shop yeah, but buying gc from BM wont bring more Stones in game, its retarded to rely on buying Gc from BM to buy rare stones

hence its not a problem with the price and rarity of stones, just too retarded to buy gc to get something that isnt there

 

if people want stones, they buy them directly from shop if they want, they wont buy Gc cause its no use there still wont be more rare stones in-game so the bought gc is useless

so if people want more stones they will buy them from shop, BM doesnt offer bindings for $

 

saying BM is the cause of all this is ignorant, and a lame excuse for saying "everyone competes for stones, offering more and more Gc for them" <--- that is where the problem is

think price is too high? dont buy them then, they will drop in price again if everyone stops buying at high prices

dont be like sheep, one offers more for a stone and suddenly everyone starts outbidding eachother

 

theres your problem, nothing to do with BM, its all the mindset of the buyer/seller

Edited November 19, 2009 by Infamous

[Lorck]

BM competes with shop yeah, but buying gc from BM wont bring more Stones in game

Yes, that is the point.

its retarded to rely on buying Gc from BM to buy rare stones

Not that retarded, if you keep in mind the competition between shop & gold sellers. They just keep lowering their prices in order to remain attractive to players.

hence its not a problem with the price and rarity of stones

Yes, there is a problem. When you buy from BM, no stone enter the game. If there was no BM or the BM was slowed down, fighters who wanted to do $->gc conversion would need to buy more from the shop, adding stones on market, controlling the inflation.

they will drop in price again if everyone stops buying at high prices

You are suggesting that manuers should stop manu? Slowing down the BM option sounds better.

hahaha, omg still not able to read it?

I am getting tired of answering the same thing again and again, to someone who is obviously biased and posting the same thing again & again. Lower BM activity, more shop activity, lower inflation, win-win situation for everyone but the gold sellers. Edited November 19, 2009 by Lorck

[Dugur]

It's amazing how you have this skill to take the irrelevant from relevant.

Even more amazing is your urge to go into small detail when it is known to not have any value in topic.

 

Juvenal, not everyone takes gaming as their main focus on freetime. That weird person known as casual gamer can be succesful in EL, have gc in game he doesn't know why or where to spend and realizes that there are few small investments he would like in the Real Life scene. He sells the gc or gives prezzies to friends. If he lives in a country with weaker currency than dollar it's double win.

 

Now we make such transactions illegal:

He likes the game and will not risk it. Spends it to something nice, makes few friends happy and builds char more.

or He doesn't care and does it knowing of what might follow. If moderation succeeds he gets ban and leaves game without looking back. Character will be locked for good and his million gold coin and other loot is still shown in game statistics.

 

Here we slow transactions:

Juvenal wins precidency. World economy is stable. Cancer is cured. Gold coins are sold.

 

It's either removed or not, rest is just work that solves nothing. If gc buying is removed it will very likely be hell to do and the whole idea of EL shop is also a bit odd then (depending on how you look into it.) Even if it's removed there will be transactions, there will always be a way.

[Infamous]

slowing down BM wont solve anything

so now its fighters who buy the Gc? werent they uber powerfull in-game and rich in the first place? afaik you said fighters are the ones offering the Gc

if people would all buy from shop the price of stones would fall greatly, whats the point in spending $2 for a lousy 4k?

i think the $1 for 8k is already lousy, you could buy 800k and its gone in a week

 

i think its fine as it is now, at some point people refuse to pay the high prices and it will go back to normal

or you could be our knight in shining armor and buy a couple 100 of rare stones from shop?

oh u dont want to? its all good aslong as someone else pays for it eh?

[Elf_Ninja]

uhm, you didnt answer it, you skipped the fact that people with brains buy their rare stones from shop instead of gc from BM and then still not be able to buy the stones. (because they are rare, buying gc wont bring more into the game for the BM user to buy)

Yes, i did answer, its not my fault you are way too dumb to understand or way too biased to admit. Here it goes again: the BM players actively compete with the shop. Its just unfair competition, the BM guys keep lowering their prices to outbid the shop. Mainly manuers buy stuff from shop, why is this the case?

 

Soooo people who buy gc on the BM and then turn around and buy RARE items from people ingame who purchased them from the shop aren't supporting the game??

 

People who sell gc on the BM and then turn around and buy things in the shop to sell to the people who buy RARE items ingame that bought their gc from the BM aren't supporting the game?

 

I'm not saying that 100% of the people who sell gc turn around and use the money in the shop but I know it does happen that way. How is that bad for the game?

[Lorck]

It's either removed or not, rest is just work that solves nothing. If gc buying is removed it will very likely be hell to do and the whole idea of EL shop is also a bit odd then (depending on how you look into it.) Even if it's removed there will be transactions, there will always be a way.

I will ignore the rest of your post since its just personal attacks. About being either completely removed or not, i disagree. Lowering BM activity increases shop activity and inflation get lower, all at same time, its a win-win for everyone but the gold sellers, and honestly i don't care about them. There could be transactions etc, BUT hopefully in a a volume that doesn't hurt the gaming experience of everyone (but the gold sellers) as it is now.

so now its fighters who buy the Gc? werent they uber powerfull in-game and rich in the first place? afaik you said fighters are the ones offering the Gc

Not all fighters are powerful enough to farm gold to sell. And some just wouldn't be bothered to do that.

if people would all buy from shop the price of stones would fall greatly, whats the point in spending $2 for a lousy 4k?

i think the $1 for 8k is already lousy, you could buy 800k and its gone in a week

You think the rates are too low because the gold sellers kept lowering their prices to remain competitive. Some years ago the rate was 1$->3k, nobody complained.

Soooo people who buy gc on the BM and then turn around and buy RARE items from people ingame who purchased them from the shop aren't supporting the game??

 

People who sell gc on the BM and then turn around and buy things in the shop to sell to the people who buy RARE items ingame that bought their gc from the BM aren't supporting the game?

You could keep doing that, if gold/item selling get illegal, DHT already said it, here it is:

The one buying the service/item for gcs has to make a forum thread in, say, Help me forum, looking for a person who could do the exchange. Then if the money doesn't reach radu in some given time, ban. easy.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Lorck

[nathanstenzel]

Uh, you learned how to underline sarcasm. Let me ask you a question nathan, do you think that ingreds prices solely increased in price because people bought GC from the BM? Or do you agree that people mass manu/hoard ingreds increasing the price? Common Sense is hard to find in EL nowadays.

You have failed to tell when I was sarcastic at times too. That is the problem with text. Even in person, it is sometimes hard to tell if a person is being sarcastic. In text, it is even harder.

 

Where gc comes from does not affect manufacturing much unless it is spent on something that affect manufacturing. If people buy the ingreds and then hoard them, it matters to a certain extent.

 

Something that is more important is allowing the maximum number of allowed items of whatever controlled type be relative to the number of active players and not a fixed number which will not be acceptable when the population of the game grows.

 

I just want folk to know that I do not buy gc. I earn it.

 

WHAT THE FUCK??? (you really made me laugh out loud) Are you suggesting that we all steal dollars to buy GC or something? Some people work in real. Then spend it on games. You want to punish people because they 'earn' the game gold a different way?

Ok. Try this then. "I just want folk to know that I do not buy gc. I earn it in game."

I was not passing judgement on anyone, so don't get you boxers in a bind, ok?

I was just excluding myself from a statement made by Luigi which I thought might have been a serious as opposed to a sarcastic statement.

[Sonic]

PHAIL - This is a game, it does not always work perfectly with real world analysis. If demand and supply worked in EL as it does in theory

Yes, the ammount of evidence of ignobel economy prize keep adding up... Of course you can still apply economics to virtual worlds, here is a start.

 

The 2nd sentence in that link begins with:

 

People enter these virtual economies for recreation and entertainment rather than necessity, which means that virtual economies lack the aspects of a real economy

 

Read what you link to in the future?

 

 

Not only that, but you say you can apply any real world economics to the game. Yes you can. Doesn't make it relevant or meaningful though.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Frost

[Lorck]

People enter these virtual economies for recreation and entertainment rather than necessity, which means that virtual economies lack the aspects of a real economy

Read what you link to in the future?

This is taken totally out of context. here is the complete quote:

People enter these virtual economies for recreation and entertainment rather than necessity, which means that virtual economies lack the aspects of a real economy that are not considered to be "fun" (for instance, players in a virtual economy often do not need to buy food in order to survive, and usually do not have any biological needs at all)

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the relevance of offer/demand law.

Not only that, but you say you can apply any real world economics to the game. Yes you can. Doesn't make it relevant or meaningful though.

Offer/demand law is universal. I explained carefully why it was relevant in the post aboves.

 

Next time quote on context, please. EDIT:Or learn economy. Or just stfu.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Lorck

[Dugur]

It's either removed or not, rest is just work that solves nothing. If gc buying is removed it will very likely be hell to do and the whole idea of EL shop is also a bit odd then (depending on how you look into it.) Even if it's removed there will be transactions, there will always be a way.

I will ignore the rest of your post since its just personal attacks. About being either completely removed or not, i disagree. Lowering BM activity increases shop activity and inflation get lower, all at same time, its a win-win for everyone but the gold sellers, and honestly i don't care about them. There could be transactions etc, BUT hopefully in a a volume that doesn't hurt the gaming experience of everyone (but the gold sellers) as it is now.

 

This is a moderated forum. If it is just personal attack it would be removed, no?

 

People will buy and sell market gold coin as long as they can because they have motive to do so. Made slower? They will still do. How to compete EL shop? Sell cheaper. Where to buy? From the person giving best rate and with best face value.

Now if we want the shop to bring in more stuff it needs to give more than buying gc. Some value supporting the game and are glad to buy from shop instead of BM, the supporting is worth some for them. Others hate the developer and will not buy from shop in any case, though still like to play the game.

 

Now there's talk of slowing down BM. Then the title says make it illegal. How do you, Juvenal, actually suggest to make EL shop > BM? The flaw is in the question Learner asked in the beginning. If buying gc is made illegal, it will most likely slow down black market and yes, bring in more shop items. Then we have more rare items in game, gc shop buyers compete with item price and bindings as example get more common. When they get more common everyone will walk in cheap ice dragon set. Value of $ vs gc hits rock bottom and is more tempting to sell. Where is balance?

 

My approach would be to make shopping easier. First of all the "shop page" is not good for a shopper, some updating there is necessary. Advertising helps too, you might actually find it easier to buy gc than realize to buy shop stuff. EL shop needs to be done openly in more business like fashion, just my opinion.

There was also a talk of $ tokens in some other post. If there was a shop bought token worth 1 dollar and NPC to match EL shop item basic prices you could actually buy something from shop that is good for almost anyone, because they can redeem it to exactly what they need. Tokens in game would be more likely basic $-gc conversion item and there's more competition with them -> price down on them = price down on rare items if lucky (but still not likely to happen automatically) You could even turn all dusty efes, serps and stuff in old not used accounts into tokens, so if the player ever gets back in game they can swap the stuff to the item they need and get reliable statistics. Obviously if needed there can be stone token - essence token - clothing token etc.

Having this sort of token in game and no drop pk areas I'd remove bindings, serps and rostos from harvesting. Also if you PK someone with a rosto there would be small chance for a token to drop, now it'd be more tempting to PK in drop areas and rostos actually poof in PK too.

 

There are flaws most likely. Point is the issue can be approached other ways too. Actually Radu has just recently done something that should be good for shop

[SlimPickins]

Earlier this year, I read on Slashdot that Runescape started banning players that sold in game currency. They lost half their subscribers when they started doing that. Also, a quick search shows that currency selling in Runescape still happens.

 

I don't think any game company has yet found a workable way to prevent gc selling. I also don't think gc selling is a big problem.

[PaulB]

Earlier this year, I read on Slashdot that Runescape started banning players that sold in game currency. They lost half their subscribers when they started doing that. Also, a quick search shows that currency selling in Runescape still happens.

 

I don't think any game company has yet found a workable way to prevent gc selling. I also don't think gc selling is a big problem.

 

 

I would seriously check the date on the date of that search...

 

Runescape had long ago implemented a way to stop currency selling by initiating a "fair trade" process. You can no longer make unfair trades. They only allow trades to be within a certain amount of in game currency difference, which is very little. So little in fact that you can't even give someone more than 10 runes or so because it exceeds the limit. The trades can only be made when in the "green" area.

Edited November 19, 2009 by PaulB

[SlimPickins]

I would seriously check the date on the date of that search...

 

Runescape had long ago implemented a way to stop currency selling by initiating a "fair trade" process. You can no longer make unfair trades. They only allow trades to be within a certain amount of in game currency difference, which is very little. So little in fact that you can't even give someone more than 10 runes or so because it exceeds the limit. The trades can only be made when in the "green" area.

I'll take your word for it since I've never played Rusescape, but I think the article I saw on Slashdot was referring to some things that happened in the past.

 

More on topic, I hope EL never gets that limitation. It could get very annoying.

[Raytray]

If that limitation is taken, it would mean the end of mixing parties or helping friends mule.

 

edit: Perhaps make invasion token rarer, remove any other use for them ingame. Use them as shop credit at the value of a dollar or so, as long as the user purchases say $5.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Raytray

[nathanstenzel]

This is a moderated forum. If it is just personal attack it would be removed, no?

No. If that was the case, alot more posts that were directed at me would be deleted.

[Sonic]

Ignoring everything you have said up to this point: @ Lorck.

 

How would you implement this idea? I want, to the exact details, what player, radu, and moderators would have to do, IF this idea was considered.

 

You say "slow/end BM" but...HOW?

Edited November 20, 2009 by Frost

[DHT]

@ Frost:

 

As I explained before in my post somewhere, this could be a possible solution:

 

The player who wants to do the gc exchange for $ has to create a thread on forums asking if there is a person who could provide such a service.

When he finds that person and the exchange is made, mods/radu will check if the "helper" paid $ to the shop. If so, kewl. If not in a given time, then ban.

 

This would make the gc-$ exchange possible solely for buying items/services from shop, not for making $ from the game for random players.

This would also require the mods to keep track of big one-way gc transactions. Also a possible solution for the "santas" and gfs, bfs who like giving gifts left and right would be posting a thread explaining that it was a gift (after the exchange of course, you don't wanna ruin the surprise )

 

Just a suggestion

[asgnny]

As Dipi pointed out, this is a simple case of supply and demand.

 

Given that there is high (virtually eternal) demand from players for gc and rare items, the solution is to approach the supply side. Slow down or eliminate the supply of gc for sale from farming alts** then if necessary, make further tweaks to other sources of excess gold coins*.

 

As of a very recent spot check, there were literally millions of gc for sale by unofficial means from players who (ab)use farming alts. If the supply of gc for sale decreases, the conversion rate would be more beneficial for players to buy items from the EL shop (as it once was). Other suggestions such as improving the EL Shop page interface, and perhaps creating $-tokens (only sold from the shop, redeemable for EL shop items & services) which can be used and traded in-game, would be boons to the shop. The advantage here is that in order for those $-tokens to enter the game, the shop already has the money in hand. Players tend to hoard items. I would imagine that if $-tokens were sold, these would end up in the back of players' storages as well. Once again, this is not at all a problem, since the EL Shop has been paid up front.

 

While each of the above ideas have been mentioned before, they would really each work best in conjunction with one another. If there is still a massive influx of excess gc (supply), the player demand will be met without much in the way of shop purchases. If the shop page is improved, but nobody wants to buy from it anyway, it would be wasted effort. If $-tokens are implemented, but there is no convenient way for players to use them, not many of them would be purchased. If implemented together, I think both the shop and players alike (sans farmers) would benefit.

 

 

*some of these sources would be unavoidable (e.g. invasions, instances, alchemy and potions), but require a lot of work to turn a profit, or create a sink for the biggest shop seller: rostogol stones.

Edit:

**just a note before I get grilled once again: ignore the poll options themselves, but please do read the linked post.

Edited November 20, 2009 by asgnny

[bigkav]

PHAIL - This is a game, it does not always work perfectly with real world analysis. If demand and supply worked in EL as it does in theory

Yes, the ammount of evidence of ignobel economy prize keep adding up... Of course you can still apply economics to virtual worlds, here is a start.

I'm terrified how seriously you took my joke

Some people can't understand sarcasm... ofc, if you keep with this bullshit (like claiming "yeah yeah offer/demand laws are useless in online games because ... because??") then some people from ignobel prizes can look with another eyes.

I thought it was about the community.

It is, for the greater good of the community.

 

At Luigi's last comment, i will ignore the offtopic stuff like dragon armors/attributes cap, it seems bullshit to just warp the topic trying to defend a practice which doesn't do any good to the game, it just harms the gameplay. But i will reply to this:

There will always be a black market in any game, it's inevitable

The way it is now its way too easy. Simple as that. People can even advertise in many forums without fear of punishment. Slowing down would be really good, tyvm sir. Btw, once again, GET A JOB dude, a real job, not something as shameful as online selling of gold in games.

hm.

 

 

Taking all that has been considered, I'll repeat one more thing then leave you people to it.

 

Slowing down the Black Market will do jack shit. In the short run, it'll help for the first few weeks/months. In the end, another waste of time. It's gotta swing one way or another, Figure out how to STOP Black Market COMPLETELY or don't bother at all. The game has had more then enough half-cocked suggestions and look where they've situated.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Luigi

[gordong11]

I have thought about this, but first a little background on me. I have't been EL very long, but played EQ for a long time, starting when first released as beta as beta in the late 90's. I had helped their dev teams with ideas on several occasions. Was a top wizard, on SH server.

 

When it comes to EL and selling of items and GC for cash, I was dead set against it and couldn't believe it was allowed.....BUT: The more I played the game and thought about it, the more and more sense it makes.

 

1. Kudos to the dev team for making EL such a great game, and it's free. So if they want to sell items and GC more power to them, as it is a great way for income. The more income they have, the more improvements to the game are made. After playing this game a while, I'm hooked and can only pray they do not close shop because they cannot afford to support the game. Especially in this economy.

 

2. I was taken by surprise on how GC oriented this game is, and takes a long time to advance.....10x more so without GC, if much time is spent harvesting. It almost deterred me from continuing to play...the fact that I'm between jobs right now (yes I got laid off last month), was really the only reason I continued to play and had the time to do the mundane tasks needed. This is important. I'm now hooked. I can easily so how noobs can stop playing after a short time, if they do not have the personal time to invest in the game. The selling of items from the dev team is vital here too, because not only of revenue stream mentioned above, but because more people will continue to play the game. It allows peeps who dont have lots of time to play to have fun. I have no problem at all if someone buys lots of GC or any other item for this reason. Plus the more players who play the better it is for everyone, especially the dev team.

 

People who have done the work the hard way, please don't be jealous or hold it against people for buying stuff with cash if done in a responsible way. Personally I feel this option is great....plus If I do get a job soon, I can keep up with my friends more easily if need be. I can understand the frustration from some peeps, but it's no big deal when you think about it. Even more so in EL when things can break in an instant.

 

Added: I remeber in EQ, there was a guy trying to get my guild who bought his toon, yes his toon...for 3kUSD. This infuriated me at the time, and I denied him an opportunity to join. Needless to say this person joined a rival guild, and played for years and was a thorn in my side. Was this ethical? I almost reported him to SOE to get him booted, but I didn't knowing this would cause problems if anyone learned of it, because he/she was so valuable to their guild. Sony got years of revenue from him, guild got a solid player and everyone liked him/her. Looking back on it now, it really was no big deal, in fact was a positive in the long run. We are all in EL together whether we like it or not, and the more the merrier IMHO. Who cares of someone buys 1 million GC, a good sword, Rostogol stones, etc. It affects me none in a bad way (other than a bit of jealousy), but my bot will certainly appreciate another toon with a million GC!

 

Think about this too, even a noob with a million GC, that a lot of money to invest in the game. I know I'd stick around and play to make good use of the coin.

 

Thanks

Rob

Edited November 20, 2009 by gordong11

[Lorck]

Slowing down the Black Market will do jack shit. In the short run, it'll help for the first few weeks/months. In the end, another waste of time. It's gotta swing one way or another, Figure out how to STOP Black Market COMPLETELY or don't bother at all.

Why is this case? The BM supporters keep saying that, and i can't understand it, its like when the gov of Brazil said in the 1970's "we can't stop the inflation 100% so we wont bother" (and accumulated Brazil's inflation between 1964-1994 reached a 1,000,000,000,000,000%, a quadrillion percent!!). The BM is a bad thing, just making it crippled would benefit most of players, there is no urge to stop it 100%, less BM is good for all but the gold sellers.

 

And to Asgnny, very pr0 post BUT i disagree with the alt restriction or one person at a time. The gold sellers have already done too much harm to the game, we could just try to make them illegal instead of trying to slow down them restricting the actions of the whole community.

EDIT: And to gordong11, please read about some other posts on this thread, thanks.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Lorck

[Dugur]

And to Asgnny, very pr0 post BUT i disagree with the alt restriction or one person at a time. The gold sellers have already done too much harm to the game, we could just try to make them illegal instead of trying to slow down them restricting the actions of the whole community.

And I agree with him. To get rid of something you need to go to the origins. Gc are sold - limiting it will keep it going still. Cut the source of gc to be sold - no more selling from them. There will still be main chars selling gc, I even know of a top 10 manuer who sold gc. This will actually be slowing down the BM but not the way of making it illegal, but in another easier non burdening way.

 

If you're in a war the leaders know quite accurately how many men will be lost in taking action. Takes balls to make the decision, but sacrifices must be done. Both ideas given here work in theory and it's up to everyone to see which would be better and up to devs to decide if there even is a need to do anything. We lack one thing in the overall picture, and it is current Ents plan on the matter. To me it looks like something is happening but for mere mortals it's a bit hard to reliably put the finger on correct reasons behind things.

[Gilrain]

i disagree with the proposal to restrict everyone to one char.

One aspect: how would you control that?

Another aspect: as long as redistributing PPs is that difficult, you practically force ppl to create different chars over time imho.

 

and i also disagree with the point to either kill BM or do nothing - thats not how things work.

If there was a possibility to make BM less attractive with a combination of measures, then we should do that imho, even if it doesnt get rid off it completely.

 

my 0.02

[Infamous]

slowing down BM wont help at all, how will you slow it down? tell people not to buy Gc from the BM at better rates then shop?

making it illegal will still keep it going too

 

only way is either making Gc gained easier snd/or cut down costs (NPC's could sell at lower prices, and increase how much they pay) remembers aluwen tit chain for ~48k) D:

or

make gc trades completely illegal, and then the mods can kiss their RL goodbye cause of too much work, hard to figure out if you are just giving it as present to someone as a friend or family, or to pay back for something

besides invstigating motives behind a transaction mods would need to go through server statistics for hours going through all the players transactions

do i need to answer to a mod every time i get paid for an instance after we are done?

 

that could lead up to many angry people, do we have to be scared for every transaction we make cause a mod might be watching?

maybe a 3rd party program will be made available for download on the EL website required to play EL, something that watches/monitors and records everything you do/say

where is the line?

 

in no other game gold is as important as here, because of the importance of Gc (loads of money sinks, not much ways to gain gold leads of to Gc being more important)

leads up to Gc being sold, people know it will sell good cause it is needed so much in large quantities

Edited November 20, 2009 by Infamous