Make gc & item selling for real money illegal

[PaulB]

And the moderators, all volunteers that are supposed to be helpers, not a bunch of highschool hall monitors, are supposed to all keep track of this, in their own time, for totally free? Or do you expect Radu to keep track of all these transactions, instead of investing that time in actually developing the game?

Oh you mean like we already do? I am not saying I am for or against this idea, but I will say that your description pretty much sums up most of modding already. Please do not comment on suggestions with reasons based on moderators jobs or what you think they are or aren't, we will decide on that aspect ourselves if the suggestion ever gets that far.

 

 

1. Majority, if not all of the moderators are not the devs for the game. (correct me if I am wrong here because this is what I think to be true)

 

2. This is radu's game so if he request the mods to try and catch the BM sales then I am sure they will oblige.

 

3. The mod's do a very good job at catching illegal things going on in the game an I would bet my character on the fact they would also put a nice dent in the amount of BM trades going on if they had too.

 

4. Part of the development of a game like this IS making sure people follow the rules.

 

If part of the moderators job included finding BM trades then I doubt they would have to monitor anymore than they do now. As much as some people may not like the amount of moderation in EL I happen to be one of the people that respect what they do and why they do it.

 

Thinking about all the work that radu/dev's put into this game and the extreme amount of enjoyment I get out of it I would be 100% for making BM trades illegal making sure that radu and the dev's could make more profit for their efforts.

Edited November 19, 2009 by PaulB

[bigkav]

They can't track rl$ which is the main problem here(banks, paypal, etc). Tracking suspicious trades is an every day thing for EL moderators.

[nathanstenzel]

<CLIP>

Lol you people think that the manuing items price increase is caused by BM. It's obviously because of the top manuers fighting over the resources to mass manu. Take a look at holar, that guy started manu strike because items pricing was too high, the the hypocrite one-two weeks later starts buying bindings/efes and what not for ridiculous prices making the rest of us who also need them items suffer because he wants them all. Binding stones were 5-6k.. now half the manu items have bloody doubled in price. people are paying 10k for serp stones when 4k WAS the going rate. sound ridiculous to you? no blame the totally irrelevant cause because you know holar and other top manuers buy all their gcs from BM to pay for these when they can just buy the rare stone/essence from the shop.

I notice a number of bots do this. I don't know who owns them. It might not be just manufacturers. Anybody can hoard things to keep prices high and still climbing.

I am #16 manu in the year view at the moment. Higher than that on the month view.

I just want folk to know that I do not buy gc. I earn it. Just incase Luigi's words had you thinking all top 20 manufacturers did this.

Really, with the shop items and the current high prices, there would be no reason to resort to a black market either. Just buy from the shop and sell those items for gc.

[bigkav]

Uh, you learned how to underline sarcasm. Let me ask you a question nathan, do you think that ingreds prices solely increased in price because people bought GC from the BM? Or do you agree that people mass manu/hoard ingreds increasing the price? Common Sense is hard to find in EL nowadays.

[DHT]

Could someone tell me what is the gc/$ ratio atm?

 

As far as I can see (based on probably out-dated info on gc/$ ratio on "BM", which was 8k/1$ when I still played main server), you would get more gcs from players than from selling shop items. So that might be the reason they buy gcs instead of items.

[PaulB]

Could someone tell me what is the gc/$ ratio atm?

 

As far as I can see (based on probably out-dated info on gc/$ ratio on "BM", which was 8k/1$ when I still played main server), you would get more gcs from players than from selling shop items. So that might be the reason they buy gcs instead of items.

 

This isn't so much as to the rate of sale..

 

Just within this week alone there were 5 *posted* offers to sell gold coins, 2 of them did not list the actual amount for sale.

 

On the remaining 3 posted the net $$ worth came too $493.00.

 

So depending on the amount the 2 that were not listed was worth we could be talking around $850.00 - $900.00 worth of gold coin sales when I am sure that money could be more well spent on things to improve the game via shop sales.

 

If people were not allowed to purchase these gold coins on the BM then the people wasting 100's of dollars could spend that money at the EL shop to obtain items they need and support the game they obviously love enough to pay that kind of cash to play.

 

On another note I also think radu should expand on the items he has for sale in the shop. I am sure people will buy just about anything he has to offer there. The more items for sale the more profit for radu/dev's.

 

But as long as BM trading is legal then radu will continue to loose out on profits.

[Lorck]

Just another act of the great stupidity of lorck. Really, you obviously have all the statistics that prove that the shortage of these items is because of the BM, it possibly couldn't be top manuers could it?

Great stupidity? Try to buy this stuff on market. About being "the evil manuers' fault" i already debunked that myth, but you ignored (due to your obvious and blatant bias?), don't worry i will do that again.

Lol you people think that the manuing items price increase is caused by BM. It's obviously because of the top manuers fighting over the resources to mass manu.

We think because its true. Simple fact: free economies are driven by offer/demand law. If there is not enough offer of rare ingreds and demand stays strong, prices will go up. There is not enough offer of rare stuff because players buy from BM instead of buying from the shop, then there is not enough items entering game and the manuers will have to raise their buying prices.

 

I don't think Luigi (or the other gc sellers) will agree with the above paragraph, but everyone who studied a tiny bit of economy will recognize it as true. Of course, they will keep saying "but ohmygod, its not our fault, its evil manuer's fault", don't fall for it, because there isn't really the case.

@Lorck: Mini-Events were put into game to help prevent afk harvesting from alts.

No, one of the reasons for that to be put in game is to slow down BM activity. "But Lorck is retard, show some statistics please" you would probably reply. Ok, straight from Entropy's mouth, on his blog, right after the introduction of the mini events, i will skip the irrelevant part, btw:

"Recently I made a few changes in how the harvesting works. Mainly, I increased the number of events...Gold farmers had many harvesting characters which were used to make gold and then sell for RL $$$...while at the same time impacts the cheaters and farmers, with relatively little impact on honest players."

Ye, its not the gold seller's fault. And it does impact a lot the honest & legit players , the most hated feature of EL of all was put into place to exactly slow down the BM, while punishing the bulk of good & legit EL players. This is TOTALLY outrageous, to say the least.

Let me ask you a question nathan, do you think that ingreds prices solely increased in price because people bought GC from the BM? Or do you agree that people mass manu/hoard ingreds increasing the price?

I am not Nathan, but this question is easy enough so i will answer. The manuer's are not dumb, they won't try to inflate artificially the prices (and ruin themselves in the process) if there is enough supplies to meet the demand.

Common Sense is hard to find in EL nowadays.

Not really common sense are easy to find in EL. As it is to find gold sellers. Just make it illegal, at the worst case it would slow down their advertising, in the best case it will completly remove it from the game to the great joy of the bulk of EL players.

 

A final note to Luigi: get a real job, dude. There is no "diplomatic" way to say this, but really, get a job dude, ffs.

[Sonic]

I just want folk to know that I do not buy gc. I earn it.

 

WHAT THE FUCK??? (you really made me laugh out loud) Are you suggesting that we all steal dollars to buy GC or something? Some people work in real. Then spend it on games. You want to punish people because they 'earn' the game gold a different way?

 

 

The so called "black-market" has always been there. The so called "high prices" are "new".

Oh please, if I believed everyone saying EL's economy is in trouble - it would have been in recession for 6+ years.

 

Not only that, but I'd more more inclined to believe that a platform allowing people to buy $ with GC for items in shop helps Radu. Such platform is essentially an extension of the market on these forums. It increases money flow and stimulates the economy.

Spot on.

 

 

And another thing to add to what I've said. It all comes down to greed. Mixers not content to wait for rare items to push their gold reserves up. Remember the manufacturing strike? How the manu'ers cried about prices. What did they do? Raised their prices in hope of increased margins and profits. What happened? The price of the ingredients simply adjusted upwards. EL inflation.

 

Is inflation bad? Look at the people who play these days. Its mostly high level accounts who have extensive power to earn gold. Ogres upwards (fluff/feros/yeti) are goldmines to train (capes/potions/gold/bones), not to mention manufacturing/alc'ing/crafting items that no longer fail due to high levels.

 

Instead of going on this silly witch hunt of a suggestion, rather tackle issues that would improve the 'markets' as well as the game as a whole, such as:

 

• Increased player retention.
  
• Increased population.
  
• Easier in-game access to shop.
  

 

Now, someone nominate me for:

 

 

Edited November 19, 2009 by Frost

[Lorck]

Frost: is different to earn the gc in game, and outside game.

 

And don't come with that Bullshit "oh, its evil manuers' fault". Its not, simple, read my post above.

 

About player retention and population and all, do you know how many legit players stopped because of the mini events? I know many. Why the mini events started? Yep, to slow down the BM. How many who stopped or will stop because of f*** up economy? I bet many. Just get rid of the damn black market, which only hurts the community as a whole to the privilege of some guys who use the BM. Just slowing down the black market will improve the playability of the game, and increase the population.

 

And finally, you should be indicated to ignobel prize of economy, instead.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Lorck

[bigkav]

Lol get rid of the black market then. I'll be there telling you "I told you so". Good Luck with your crusade though.

[Dilly]

Lol get rid of the black market then. I'll be there telling you "I told you so". Good Luck with your crusade though.

 

amen.

[Sonic]

Frost: is different to earn the gc in game, and outside game.

Why did you reword what I said? lol

 

And don't come with that Bullshit "oh, its evil manuers' fault". Its not, simple, read my post above.

 

Actually if you read my post you'd see I wasn't blaming anyone, simply stating what happened.

 

About player retention and population and all, do you know how many legit players stopped because of the mini events? I know many.

 

How many? Since when do you have access to such detailed statistics. Stop talking bullshit.

 

Why the mini events started? Yep, to slow down the BM. How many who stopped or will stop because of f*** up economy? I bet many. Just get rid of the damn black market, which only hurts the community as a whole to the privilege of some guys who use the BM.

 

Let me guess. You have stats on how many people use the so called "black market as well?

 

And finally, you should be indicated to ignobel prize of economy, instead.

 

ow.

 

 

Lol get rid of the black market then. I'll be there telling you "I told you so". Good Luck with your crusade though.

 

amen.

 

hallelujah

Edited November 19, 2009 by Frost

[Lorck]

Actually if you read my post you'd see I wasn't blaming anyone, simply stating what happened.

This is not the case. The market has a demand/offer, the offer is too low for the demand, you totally ignored it(maybe bias?).

How many? Since when do you have access to such detailed statistics. Stop talking bullshit.

I know from a guild i used to be in, with like ~30 players, 5 or so stopped just because of the changes on harvesting. No, not cheaters or farmers, legit players. Bullshit is you blaming manuers for the fault of gold sellers, that is bullshit.

Let me guess. You have stats on how many people use the so called "black market as well?

Enough players to affect negatively the economy and the gameplay.

And finally, you should be indicated to ignobel prize of economy, instead.

ow.

This is true, you simply gone with the trend of ignore the offer/demand and just blame manuers to try to protect a practice in a game which is completly against the interest of the vast majority of players. And asking for a nobel prize? Rofl, ok nobel prize is not what used to be, but just claiming you want a nobel prize for some ridiculous statements make you deserve an ignobel prize.

 

And once again, you don't need to get completely rid of BM to do any good. Just slowing it down would be a really good thing. Hell, only slowing it advertising would be a good thing.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Lorck

[Raytray]

Just a quick note: Not everything available from the shop is listed in the shop page.

One and skeptic removal come to mind. Recently the Mage robe set as well.

[Wizzy]

Just a quick note: Not everything available from the shop is listed in the shop page.

One and skeptic removal come to mind. Recently the Mage robe set as well.

 

 

This is very true. Perhaps even #command could be made that would list shop items like #shop rostogols...and would then list the price?

 

This could be updated much eaiser then html web..You could even use f2 with a url to the paypal site to send money to el,

[DHT]

Just a quick note: Not everything available from the shop is listed in the shop page.

One and skeptic removal come to mind. Recently the Mage robe set as well.

 

ditto. shop page needs improvement

[dipi]

Interaction between offer and demand

 

 

O = offer of items (red line)

D = demand of items (blue line)

X axis = quantity

Y axis = price

 

If the offer is reduced (let's say reducting rare items findind rate or "evil manuers" accumulating in their storages) there will exist an excess of demand wich put pression into prices, raising 'em up.

[SenZon]

Just a quick note, MOST people who sell Gc in the "BM" are people quiting the game, there isnt many farmers atm, maybe 1-4 who sell 400-600k at max per month. If making the BM illegal the people quiting the game imo will either give their storage away or just let it rot on a inactive account. Or just give it away which is pretty much the same thing as selling it.

And a very large part of these so called "BM" people use the money they earn towards the shop - I.E my 5 Namechanges, 3 looks change, a few copies to test server this year - all came from Gc i sold.

Edited November 19, 2009 by SenZon

[Infamous]

lol funny how lorck can skip some simple things

 

the stones are RARE, they are supposed to be RARE and the only way to get them in-game is by harvesting/shop

because the stones are rare and very wanted the demand is higher then supply, increasing it's price, Inflation has nothing to do with the BM

because when you got money to spend, and you want something like stones.. the easiest, fastest, most secure way is to get them from shop

i used to buy gc, from experience i know that even though gc was available to purchase, i always went to shop for Rostogols

 

its just dumb to think the BM caused this, who the hell would buy gc from BM to buy rare stones in-game which arent available?

now i know someone we know wouldnt be able to understand this so here's an example

 

player A wants Binding stones

Player A looks on market to buy the Bindings, but they are very hard to find

so, Player A buys some gc from BM, then continues looking for the Bindings

oh oh, his purchase of Gc didnt magically increase the supply of Bindings, so he still cant find any

Player A wasted his $

Player B lol's at player A, because Player B was wise enough to buy the Bindings from shop

Edited November 19, 2009 by Infamous

[Lorck]

lol funny how lorck can skip some simple things

I didn't, i already answered this stuff, funny how you didn't read or was way too biased to just ignore straight away.

The stones are RARE, they are supposed to be RARE and the only way to get them in-game is by harvesting/shop

because the stones are rare and very wanted the demand is higher then supply, increasing it's price, Inflation has nothing to do with the BM

Its simple, i am sure you know all this but i will explain it again. When you buy from a player, instead of buying from the shop, no rare ingred get into the game. And Entropy keep the drop rate low so that (1) the BM players don't get much gold in their hands easily, (2) in order to stay competitive. The BM just hurts the game expirience of all, not only of those who buy from the BM.

This was already answered in a post replying to your post. Its either a blatant bias (you are a well know BM user) and/or just dumbness.

 

About the rest of your comment, the players of BM offer a big enough rate in order to compete (unfairly in my point of view) with the shop. Just ban the gold sellers, i would say, stop straight away the competition.

 

@Senzon: I would prefer that the items of players who don't want to play anymore would stay on their storage, tyvm. And there are still plenty of farmers...

Edited November 19, 2009 by Lorck

[Sonic]

Actually if you read my post you'd see I wasn't blaming anyone, simply stating what happened.

This is not the case. The market has a demand/offer, the offer is too low for the demand, you totally ignored it(maybe bias?).

 

PHAIL - This is a game, it does not always work perfectly with real world analysis. If demand and supply worked in EL as it does in theory, then surely all the k's of great swords people make would have lower their prices? No? I didn't ignore it, i called it greed. I'd quote myself if I cared more.

 

Let me guess. You have stats on how many people use the so called "black market as well?

Enough players to affect negatively the economy and the gameplay.

 

Your generalizations and prophecies of doom bore us!

 

Rofl, ok nobel prize is not what used to be, but just claiming you want a nobel prize for some ridiculous statements make you deserve an ignobel prize.

 

I'm terrified how seriously you took my joke.

 

 

And once again, you don't need to get completely rid of BM to do any good. Just slowing it down would be a really good thing. Hell, only slowing it advertising would be a good thing.

 

 

BY MAKING THIS THREAD YOU ADVERTISE IT LOL! AMAR'ed xD

 

About the rest of your comment, the players of BM offer a big enough rate in order to compete (unfairly in my point of view) with the shop. Just ban the gold sellers, i would say, stop straight away the competition.

 

Unfairly compete? Stop the competiton? How many times do we have to point out there are two sides to the coin? It helps radu just as much. SenZon said it - but you ignored it..

 

Just a quick note, MOST people who sell Gc in the "BM" are people quiting the game, there isnt many farmers atm, maybe 1-4 who sell 400-600k at max per month. If making the BM illegal the people quiting the game imo will either give their storage away or just let it rot on a inactive account. Or just give it away which is pretty much the same thing as selling it.

And a very large part of these so called "BM" people use the money they earn towards the shop - I.E my 5 Namechanges, 3 looks change, a few copies to test server this year - all came from Gc i sold.

 

@Senzon:[u][b] I would prefer[/b][/u] that the items....

I thought it was about the community.

 

... of players who don't want to play anymore would stay on their storage, tyvm.

Its their storage, let them sell it as they see fit. Or do you want to dictate how/what we store.

 

\o/ for Wizzy/DHT/Raytray with the shop suggestions. Nice, simple and constructive.

 

EDIT NOTE: @ limit on quoting - needed to use code tags xD

Edited November 19, 2009 by Frost

[bigkav]

You're a simpleton Lorck. You think up some half-cocked shitty suggestion which would slow the Black Market for a couple of weeks at max. There will always be a black market in any game, it's inevitable. You want to get rid of the black market? Get some brains and get rid of it completely, or don't bother doing it at all. Just like the attribute cap, the quick fix was to cap the attributes, instead of actually re-modeling them. If they were re-modeled, you wouldn't need a cap because no attribute would be so OP and superior that it's worth putting all your PP instead of other attributes. If the attributes were balanced in the first place you wouldn't need a cap. The armors aren't balanced, the not so recent ice dragon armor change has made black dragon torso superior to ice dragon. It wasn't the magic resistances that needed re-thinking, it's the whole armor-attributes equation. I could keep ranting on, about logical fixes and what not but I'd risk being banned.

[Infamous]

lol funny how lorck can skip some simple things

I didn't, i already answered this stuff, funny how you didn't read or was way too biased to just ignore straight away.

The stones are RARE, they are supposed to be RARE and the only way to get them in-game is by harvesting/shop

because the stones are rare and very wanted the demand is higher then supply, increasing it's price, Inflation has nothing to do with the BM

Its simple, i am sure you know all this but i will explain it again. When you buy from a player, instead of buying from the shop, no rare ingred get into the game. And Entropy keep the drop rate low so that (1) the BM players don't get much gold in their hands easily, (2) in order to stay competitive. The BM just hurts the game expirience of all, not only of those who buy from the BM.

This was already answered in a post replying to your post. Its either a blatant bias (you are a well know BM user) and/or just dumbness.

 

About the rest of your comment, the players of BM offer a big enough rate in order to compete (unfairly in my point of view) with the shop. Just ban the gold sellers, i would say, stop straight away the competition.

 

@Senzon: I would prefer that the items of players who don't want to play anymore would stay on their storage, tyvm. And there are still plenty of farmers...

 

uhm, you didnt answer it, you skipped the fact that people with brains buy their rare stones from shop instead of gc from BM and then still not be able to buy the stones. (because they are rare, buying gc wont bring more into the game for the BM user to buy)

damn, i thought that example was easy enough to understand, i should draw a picture for you next time lol

and fyi, i think i used BM once or twice ages ago, pretty well known, im BM mob

[Lorck]

PHAIL - This is a game, it does not always work perfectly with real world analysis. If demand and supply worked in EL as it does in theory

Yes, the ammount of evidence of ignobel economy prize keep adding up... Of course you can still apply economics to virtual worlds, here is a start.

I'm terrified how seriously you took my joke

Some people can't understand sarcasm... ofc, if you keep with this bullshit (like claiming "yeah yeah offer/demand laws are useless in online games because ... because??") then some people from ignobel prizes can look with another eyes.

I thought it was about the community.

It is, for the greater good of the community.

 

At Luigi's last comment, i will ignore the offtopic stuff like dragon armors/attributes cap, it seems bullshit to just warp the topic trying to defend a practice which doesn't do any good to the game, it just harms the gameplay. But i will reply to this:

There will always be a black market in any game, it's inevitable

The way it is now its way too easy. Simple as that. People can even advertise in many forums without fear of punishment. Slowing down would be really good, tyvm sir. Btw, once again, GET A JOB dude, a real job, not something as shameful as online selling of gold in games.

uhm, you didnt answer it, you skipped the fact that people with brains buy their rare stones from shop instead of gc from BM and then still not be able to buy the stones. (because they are rare, buying gc wont bring more into the game for the BM user to buy)

Yes, i did answer, its not my fault you are way too dumb to understand or way too biased to admit. Here it goes again: the BM players actively compete with the shop. Its just unfair competition, the BM guys keep lowering their prices to outbid the shop. Mainly manuers buy stuff from shop, why is this the case?

 

Why not fighters buy from the shop, but only manuers? Because they buy from the damn Black market?

damn, i thought that example was easy enough to understand, i should draw a picture for you next time lol

Lol @ you talking about brains, yet again. Edited November 19, 2009 by Lorck

[Dugur]

Gold coin market is normal in game phenomenon. If you want to get rid of it make every person on planet not want few extra dollars.

Those $$ aren't same value everywhere. Someone might laugh at 800k gc turning into 100 dollars and that the same someone wipes their bottom with the moolah. Other person can live with the 100 dollars for a month. Not everyone has same starting point financially and farming is very welcome addition. It's supply and demand meeting Real Life, who need moolah they sell gc. You want to remove something you remove the original reason. Everything else will just be effective for short time and then a bit later we have it avoided somehow.