Make gc & item selling for real money illegal

[Lorck]

We are expiriencing a shortage of bindings/efes/emes/rostogols etc due to the competition between the black market and the EL shop. We also get mini-events to slow down the black market. My suggestion is: lets get a more healthy economy, no more buy way overpriced jagged sabbers, etc, no more mini-events, just get rid of the damn black market which only hurts the economy and the game in general.

 

Btw, cast "create fire protection", because i expect to be flamed as hell after this.

 

EDIT: I don't think we would really "get rid" of the BM, but it would slow down it, and that is pretty good.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Lorck

[Infamous]

and its not just competition between top lvl manuers outbidding eachother on everything?

Edited November 18, 2009 by Infamous

[Lorck]

and its not just competition between top lvl manuers outbidding eachother on everything?

If that was the case, then we would see lots of people offering (lets say) jagged saber for big prices. What he have today is that high level items are both expensive AND hard to find, due to the mentioned shortage of rare ingreds.

[Learner]

And how much are you willing to pay to policy something like this? It would take a major effort and resources to be able to reliably detect all real $ transactions!

[Lorck]

And how much are you willing to pay to policy something like this? It would take a major effort and resources to be able to reliably detect all real $ transactions!

You don't need to catch all the "rule breakers" to slow down the BM, just make the buyer or seller think twice about doing that. The way it is now is too easy, no risk for the buyer or the seller. Edited November 18, 2009 by Lorck

[Infamous]

and its not just competition between top lvl manuers outbidding eachother on everything?

If that was the case, then we would see lots of people offering (lets say) jagged saber for big prices. What he have today is that high level items are both expensive AND hard to find, due to the mentioned shortage of rare ingreds.

 

or, they produce the items and keep them in storage to prevent them from dropping in price cause of too much supply

 

"mentioned shortage of rare ingreds."

if theres a shortage of rare ingreds, wouldnt that have to do with the droprate, or rate of finding them while harvesting rather then Gc selling/buying?

Edited November 18, 2009 by Infamous

[bigkav]

Theirs no way to track the sale of gc/items/chars when rl$ is involved. you don't have access to receipts/reliable sources. that's why they call it the "black market".

[Lorck]

or, they produce the items and keep them in storage to prevent them from dropping in price cause of too much supply

Again, if they were holding because of price, it would be easy to buy when you try to buy on market, the sellers would just pm you with high prices. But i lost my bronze greaves some time ago, no way to buy it on the market, its easier to just get ingreds and someone to mix for you.

"mentioned shortage of rare ingreds."

if theres a shortage of rare ingreds, wouldnt that have to do with the droprate, or rate of finding them while harvesting rather then Gc selling/buying?

Its simple, i am sure you know all this but i will explain it again. When you buy from a player, instead of buying from the shop, no rare ingred get into the game. And Entropy keep the drop rate low so that (1) the BM players don't get much gold in their hands easily, (2) in order to stay competitive. The BM just hurts the game expirience of all, not only of those who buy from the BM.

Theirs no way to track the sale of gc/items/chars when rl$ is involved. you don't have access to receipts/reliable sources. that's why they call it the "black market".

Its not that hard i guess, if someone keep giving large amounts to other players for nothing, either he is santaclaus or there is something really suspect.

Also, there is even a forum dedicated to this, and again, its just too easy the way it is now, if it get just slowed it will be do a lot of good for the economy and the game in general.

[bigkav]

Lol, they can get suspicious all they want. Fact is, theirs no way to prove it reliably. There has been RL$ involved in the game forever. It didn't have too much of an effect until selling characters for GC was outlawed and made ban able. That's when the "BM" really started to pick up. Shop is secure and guaranteed items. BM isn't, it's why the rates are much higher there. more risk to get scammed and what not, where as buying with radu's shop you are guaranteed the service you paid for. (well, unless you're on radu's #ignore list/bad side)

[Lorck]

Ye, people give another 4M of gc all the time, cuz they are sweethearts...

[Infamous]

Its simple, i am sure you know all this but i will explain it again. When you buy from a player, instead of buying from the shop, no rare ingred get into the game. And Entropy keep the drop rate low so that (1) the BM players don't get much gold in their hands easily, (2) in order to stay competitive. The BM just hurts the game expirience of all, not only of those who buy from the BM.

 

and the solution to that is simple too, why dont people think of it?

if they buy gc to buy rare stones which are hard to find in game, its smarter to just buy the stones directly from shop, cause:

1) you are certain to get the item you want fast

2) you are certain you wont get scammed/ripped off

3) you can have this warm fuzzy feeling inside for supporting the game

 

so people should just stop complaining about their rare stone prices, the people who buy GC to buy rare stones are better off buying stones from shop

and i really doubt they will buy Gc first and then go through all the trouble of finding rare stones, outbidding ppl on stones rather then get it fast/directly

the ones who dont use $$, well they drive prices up with Gc and blame it on others

 

 

/pepa inv sells bronze set and all other kinds of high level manu item sets/weapons

the LLL bots have high lvl manu items too

Shoprite has

 

just 3 that came to mind, checked in game and they all sell high level manu items

cba to check everything to see if there are more

Edited November 18, 2009 by Infamous

[Dilly]

and its not just competition between top lvl manuers outbidding eachother on everything?

If that was the case, then we would see lots of people offering (lets say) jagged saber for big prices. What he have today is that high level items are both expensive AND hard to find, due to the mentioned shortage of rare ingreds.

 

#edit: nevermind what i said

Edited November 18, 2009 by Dilly

[DHT]

Besides, if you were to forbid black market sales, how do you separate those from the ingame gc payments for shop, or other 'official' EL services?

 

The one buying the service/item for gcs has to make a forum thread in, say, Help me forum, looking for a person who could do the exchange. Then if the money doesn't reach radu in some given time, ban. easy.

[Dilly]

Besides, if you were to forbid black market sales, how do you separate those from the ingame gc payments for shop, or other 'official' EL services?

 

The one buying the service/item for gcs has to make a forum thread in, say, Help me forum, looking for a person who could do the exchange. Then if the money doesn't reach radu in some given time, ban. easy.

 

 

And the moderators, all volunteers that are supposed to be helpers, not a bunch of highschool hall monitors, are supposed to all keep track of this, in their own time, for totally free? Or do you expect Radu to keep track of all these transactions, instead of investing that time in actually developing the game?

 

On second thought, scrap anything i said here.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Dilly

[Lorck]

And the moderators, all volunteers that are supposed to be helpers, not a bunch of highschool hall monitors, are supposed to all keep track of this, in their own time, for totally free? Or do you expect Radu to keep track of all these transactions, instead of investing that time in actually developing the game?

Not all transactions, only the suspect ones, like people giving each other large amounts for almost nothing. Also making it illegal, would harm the ability of the gold sellers to do their advertising, which would slow down the BM and benefit the EL community at large.

Not really. From what I can see there are 2 or 3 people just raising the price they are willing to pay for things like serpent, bindingstones and wolfram bars

And in my opinion this has to do with the low amount of those items entering the game, ie, too much BM activity. If there was enough of those items entering the game, that 2 or 3 high level manuers would not afford to keep buying for big prices for long. Also its hard to find stuff for selling, its obvious to me its related to the low supplies of the ingreds. Edited November 18, 2009 by Lorck

[Aislinn]

And the moderators, all volunteers that are supposed to be helpers, not a bunch of highschool hall monitors, are supposed to all keep track of this, in their own time, for totally free? Or do you expect Radu to keep track of all these transactions, instead of investing that time in actually developing the game?

Oh you mean like we already do? I am not saying I am for or against this idea, but I will say that your description pretty much sums up most of modding already. Please do not comment on suggestions with reasons based on moderators jobs or what you think they are or aren't, we will decide on that aspect ourselves if the suggestion ever gets that far.

[Ringil_Oddsocks]

Not all transactions, only the suspect ones, like people giving each other large amounts for almost nothing. Also making it illegal, would harm the ability of the gold sellers to do their advertising, which would slow down the BM and benefit the EL community at large

 

Does this mean the high value gifts that I give to friends and guildies would come under scrutiny and possible accusations of illegal behaviour? Possibly even resulting in my ban from EL?

 

If so, I may have to reconsider playing EL. As making friends and being generous are, in the first instance the reason I play and, in the second instance part of my nature and something I am unwilling to change.

 

Radu has already stated that no deals or advertising may be made in local, channel or guild chat (i.e only via pm) in game, thus making it hard for a BM to operate, but he has not outright banned selling gc as it would be incredibly difficult to police and costly too. Although I think he doesn't mind those who quietly offer to buy services/items from the EL shop in exchange for gc ingame, after all he is still getting the RL $ from it. The only real problem is those who sell game items and/or gc for RL $ and then spend the money outside the game (at this point real value is taken away from the game and Radu's pocket).

Edited November 18, 2009 by Ringil_Oddsocks

[Lorck]

To Ringil_Oddsocks: like i said in another post, you may be santa claus and give high level items & gc to other people, but if you keep giving tons of stuff to other, unrelated to you people, then i think there is something really suspect.

 

About being costly to moderators, they already keep track of trades because of the illegal multi thing, and if there are too much work added they would just say that, we are discussing here if the gc/item selling for $ from players being illegal would be a good thing.

 

About "making BM hard to opperate", i say its way too easy as it is. There is even a whole forum dedicated to flame each other and/or black market.

 

And its not just about the economy. There is the mini events, which in my opinion, is the most disliked feature of EL which is only in place to slow down the black market. I feel its just wrong that the bulk of the EL players get punished with bad economy & mini events for the benefit of a few buyer/sellers of gold.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Lorck

[SenZon]

Its simple, i am sure you know all this but i will explain it again. When you buy from a player, instead of buying from the shop, no rare ingred get into the game. And Entropy keep the drop rate low so that (1) the BM players don't get much gold in their hands easily, (2) in order to stay competitive. The BM just hurts the game expirience of all, not only of those who buy from the BM.

 

and the solution to that is simple too, why dont people think of it?

if they buy gc to buy rare stones which are hard to find in game, its smarter to just buy the stones directly from shop, cause:

1) you are certain to get the item you want fast

2) you are certain you wont get scammed/ripped off

3) you can have this warm fuzzy feeling inside for supporting the game

 

so people should just stop complaining about their rare stone prices, the people who buy GC to buy rare stones are better off buying stones from shop

and i really doubt they will buy Gc first and then go through all the trouble of finding rare stones, outbidding ppl on stones rather then get it fast/directly

the ones who dont use $$, well they drive prices up with Gc and blame it on others

 

 

/pepa inv sells bronze set and all other kinds of high level manu item sets/weapons

the LLL bots have high lvl manu items too

Shoprite has

 

just 3 that came to mind, checked in game and they all sell high level manu items

cba to check everything to see if there are more

 

 

Agreed with infa - not only cause i do sell Gc (long time since i last sold, atm i dont sell) but because it makes sence

 

Prices has been going up is because mauers want to outbid ea other to make items in bulks.

Today i seen a player buying WolfBars @ 15k which is npc price and binding stones @ 16k gc (and this was NOT a gold coin buyer but a person i believe to use the shop quite often)

 

~SenZ

[Sonic]

The so called "black-market" has always been there. The so called "high prices" are "new".

[Lorck]

The so called "black-market" has always been there. The so called "high prices" are "new".

But it was never saw it used as much as it is now, to the point of provoking serious problems to the economy, and to the point of the introduction of mini events in the hope of slowing it down. Edited November 18, 2009 by Lorck

[Sonic]

Oh please, if I believed everyone saying EL's economy is in trouble - it would have been in recession for 6+ years.

 

Not only that, but I'd more more inclined to believe that a platform allowing people to buy $ with GC for items in shop helps Radu. Such platform is essentially an extension of the market on these forums. It increases money flow and stimulates the economy.

[Elf_Ninja]

If I remember correctly I believe Radu has been attempting to set the flow of rare items into the game at a rate that it would then also be beneficial to purchase them from the store. And as I see prices in game now I believe that goal has finally been achieved. Due to the amount of gc coming into the game along with the amount of "rare" items gc price was way below shop price for a very long time. Now that they are at about the same lvl I personally think it's a good thing-more money for radu means more game development and more fun for players in the long run hopefully.

 

I really don't see how equating high gc prices on rare items which should be rare in the first place is a indicator that the black market has taken over the game.

[ProHibited]

An official statement (new rule) that forbids black market trades will make people think twice, as said in this thread already.

 

Every months a few big dealers could get banned/punished for their BM actions, to serve as an example. Buying name changes/shop items for each other shouldn't be a problem since they are smaller transactions and the money ends up where its supposed to end up, in game development etc.

[bigkav]

We are expiriencing a shortage of bindings/efes/emes/rostogols etc due to the competition between the black market and the EL shop.

Just another act of the great stupidity of lorck. Really, you obviously have all the statistics that prove that the shortage of these items is because of the BM, it possibly couldn't be top manuers could it?

and its not just competition between top lvl manuers outbidding eachother on everything?

Spot on, first reply in the thread.

Lol you people think that the manuing items price increase is caused by BM. It's obviously because of the top manuers fighting over the resources to mass manu. Take a look at holar, that guy started manu strike because items pricing was too high, the the hypocrite one-two weeks later starts buying bindings/efes and what not for ridiculous prices making the rest of us who also need them items suffer because he wants them all. Binding stones were 5-6k.. now half the manu items have bloody doubled in price. people are paying 10k for serp stones when 4k WAS the going rate. sound ridiculous to you? no blame the totally irrelevant cause because you know holar and other top manuers buy all their gcs from BM to pay for these when they can just buy the rare stone/essence from the shop.

 

Need common sense?

The so called "black-market" has always been there. The so called "high prices" are "new".

Oh please, if I believed everyone saying EL's economy is in trouble - it would have been in recession for 6+ years.

 

Not only that, but I'd more more inclined to believe that a platform allowing people to buy $ with GC for items in shop helps Radu. Such platform is essentially an extension of the market on these forums. It increases money flow and stimulates the economy.

Spot on.

 

@ProHibited: What don't you understand about not being able to prove it reliably?

@Lorck: Mini-Events were put into game to help prevent afk harvesting from alts.