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Great guide!

 

Im halfway through fluffs right now and was wondering if it would be a bad idea to put 20 inst in now, it says to do it while on fero's but i dont see a downfall putting them in early, as long as i dont raise p/c past 28/44..

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Great guide!

 

Im halfway through fluffs right now and was wondering if it would be a bad idea to put 20 inst in now, it says to do it while on fero's but i dont see a downfall putting them in early, as long as i dont raise p/c past 28/44..

 

Instinct increases your charm, perception and reaction. None of these causes damage to the opponent. So I don't see why it would hurt to put the instinct in now... in fact, it seems to me it would help, because you would (obviously) take less damage because of higher reaction.

However, I'm not an expert, so I'll defer to folks with more knowledge (such as the author ^^).

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What could happen, depending on your levels, is that the fluffies begin to ignore you when you add that instinct. If they already ignore you then I don't see the harm in adding it now.

Edited by extrapolation

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take 20/24 p/c and train on melinis triple ogres until 80 def

don't go to armed orcs they are RUBBISH

Edited by Winkz

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Edited the guide a little.

 

Some slight re-wording in the Criticals section, added some info about equipment stat modifiers in the Selecting Armor section and made Peach happy by changing the previously ultra conservative Feros def level recommendation.

 

...and a few other bits n pieces.

Edited by Korrode

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Edited the guide a little.

 

Some slight re-wording in the Criticals section, added some info about equipment stat modifiers in the Selecting Armor section and made Peach happy by changing the previously ultra conservative Feros def level recommendation.

 

...and a few other bits n pieces.

Nice guide. Thanks for your time and effort.

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Edited the "Selecting training armor" section a bit adding some stuff related to the breaks system as it is atm.

 

The method of selecting training armor described there is now very important in regards to keeping your equipment breakages down.

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Firstly, take Reasoning 8 and Vitality 16.

Do not take any Will (ever) or any Instinct (at this point).

 

No one ever asked this so it must be obvious to them - why never take will? I am not primarily a fighter but still do not understand. Will helps to hit and gives more mana if you are going to train magic as well.

Edited by saxum

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Firstly, take Reasoning 8 and Vitality 16.

Do not take any Will (ever) or any Instinct (at this point).

 

No one ever asked this so it must be obvious to them - why never take will? I am not primarily a fighter but still do not understand. Will helps to hit and gives more mana if you are going to train magic as well.

Firstly, Will does not help to hit, it doesn't give Dexterity.

 

Will is the weakest attribute when strictly speaking about melee combat training.

Physique and Coordination are very strong attributes for reasons I hope would be obvious.

Reasoning and Instinct are the only way to increase your ability to hit and dodge once Coordination is capped, and at high level training increasing your hit and dodge ability beyond what Coordination provides is utterly essential. Once you get past ~120 a/d not having that extra hit/dodge ability would mean not being able to move on to higher mobs and would thus equate to reduced exp p/h compared to someone who can. Not to mention that even if you did keep training lower mobs where's the fun when you're 130's a/d and standing at an invasion watching 120's a/d'ers with good r/i pwning Yeti's but they still smash you to bits? Or when one of those 120'ers ruins you in PK cause you can't hit them and can't dodge their hits but they dodge most of yours? ;)

 

So really it just comes down to Will VS Vitality.

 

They both offer the same amount of mana, so for that they're the same.

 

Will offers Rationality and Vitality offers Charm. You're (eventually) going to heal plenty of health with the restore spell just from your magic level and the Rationality provided by Reasoning, so the difference primarily becomes:

Higher chance to summon an extra creature VS More devastating Harms and Mana Drains and a very slightly increased exp gain.

 

The offensive magic power and extra summon are mostly useless for a/d training, so at this stage Will looks like the better option from a training point of view due to the slightly increased exp (do remember we're talking slightly, it's +1 a/d exp per 3 rationality, it equates to a small percent to start with that quickly gets even smaller)

 

So now with Will having a slight lead we get to the key point:

Will's Matter VS Vitality's Toughness.

 

Vitality wins here because although Will provides 5 more health and increases the amount you restore by 5, Vitality will push your damage absorption ability during higher level training to the point where you often take no damage at all. Will can keep reducing the percentage of your total health that hits take off, but can never get that percentage to 0, Vitality can.

 

So at this point Vitality has a bit of a lead but you may still be thinking it's fairly "6 one, half a dozen the other"...

 

Then we factor in that when you absorb all damage your chance of breaking armour is massively reduced and consider that at high level training where expensive armour is needed it easily has the potential to save you millions of gc a year... and Vitality surges ahead as the clear victor.

 

 

 

 

---------------------

EDIT:

Added some stuff to the guide related to the new double FCW spawns.

Edited by Korrode

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Very nice guide, using this now to train my char.

 

Just one remark, I never see you increasing vit higher than 20.

Don't you need higher toughness for yeti/trices? My a/d is far below yeti lvl but I was just wondering :)

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Just one remark, I never see you increasing vit higher than 20.

Don't you need higher toughness for yeti/trices?

"need", no.

"preferable", yes.

 

On Yeti and LOrc taking vit above 20 is important primarily for decreasing armour breakages, and it will also reduce your resources used per exp gained.

 

Trice hits so hard that vit needs to be at like 40+ before the system where it reduces breakages kicks in.

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It's been brought to my attention that the Polar Bear had a stats change and is now stronger. Until someone who understands combat well tests training it and lets me know the deal, it's stricken from the guide.

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Greetings fellow fighters. :medieval:

 

After complimenting on the niceness of the guide, i'd like to ask something:

The ingame description of the evanescence perk implies that every entity in EL capable

of combat was endowed with a critical to dodge chance. I find this is not mentioned

in the criticals section of the guide, thus i conclude that critical to hit overrides

it, meaning it isn't checked for if a critical hit occurs. Is this correct?

And what about other special effects such as mirror skin, are they checked for on a

critical hit?

And since we're speaking of special effects in melee (e.g. a mirrored hit or a BoD effect):

Do those adhere a chance to break equipment?

Thanks in advance for your answers,

 

 

Elgoran.

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The ingame description of the evanescence perk implies that every entity in EL capable of combat was endowed with a critical to dodge chance. I find this is not mentioned in the criticals section of the guide, thus i conclude that critical to hit overrides it, meaning it isn't checked for if a critical hit occurs. Is this correct?

No, it is checked for.

 

Evanescence effect (critical-to-dodge) can make you dodge a critical-to-hit.

 

And what about other special effects such as mirror skin, are they checked for on a critical hit?

Yes they are, you can mirror a critical-to-hit.

 

And since we're speaking of special effects in melee (e.g. a mirrored hit or a BoD effect):

Do those adhere a chance to break equipment?

For BoD effect to happen, BoD has to hit, and since changes to the breaks system a while back, even when all damage is absorbed on a hit there is still a chance to break. So if BoD effect occurs, a hit occurred, so there'd be a chance. If without the 150 damage the normal damage (BoD's base 20-30 dmg) would have been all absorbed, and thus you are subject to the less-break-chance calculation, whether or not the BoD's +150 effect would make you subject to the higher-break-chance calculation, i'm not sure... we can never really be 100% sure about that unless radu tells us.

 

As for mirror, i'm not sure. If i had to bet one way or the other i'd say that no, you can't break stuff from a mirrored hit. But i'm really not sure on that one.

 

 

Thanks in advance for your answers,

You're welcome.

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As for mirror, i'm not sure. If i had to bet one way or the other i'd say that no, you can't break stuff from a mirrored hit. But i'm really not sure on that one.

 

When I first started hunting hawks I often had items broken due to hawk's mirror effect. I could tell it was the mirror effect due to amount of damage which was done.

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Hi Korrode!

 

Why are you always write phys/coords recommends? They are not influence to your character's abilities directly. They are influence with cross-attributes only.

 

May be better to recommend cross-attributes only? I think, main cross-attributes, which influence to player's abilities in combat are: Might, Toughness, Reaction and Dexterity.

 

There is 2 ways for getting each cross-attributes:

Might: Power of your hits, max EMU.

Physique - also increase Toughness, max EMU and max HP

Coordination - also increase Reaction, Max EMU and Dexterity (Chance to make a success hit to enemy).

 

Might define max EMU of your stuff to carry and power of hits (Makes more damage). If you will get much of Might - you will kill monsters too fast. Besides, less Might can't give you more EMU. Balance with Might as your choice. Look to 'Reaction' section to balance between Physique and Coordination.

 

Toughness: Reduce taken damage.

Physique - also increase Might, EMU and max HP

Vitality - also increase Max Mana Points and Charm.

 

I'm not summoner, and Charm is useless cross-attribute for me. Besides, Max HP is very useful for me for training and EMU for harvesting and haul (and taking HEs and SRs for training also). Better for me to fill up to full Physique first, then Vitality if I will need more Toughness. At first you obtain only 32 mana points max. It's not enough for few restorations in Invasion/Instance, especially when White Tigers like to 'reset Cooldown' at you. For my level a/d 80 is 64 mana points enough. What will be in future - I don't know, if will be any changes and I will want to get more mana - I will change it here (if I remember it :) lol).

 

Reaction: Chance to avoid from enemy's hit.

Coordination - also increase Might, Max EMU and Dexterity (Chance to make success hit).

Instinct - also increase Charm (I already wrote about useless of this cross-attribute for me) and Perception (Accuracy of Archery Shoots and Night Vision).

 

I'm not archer, but I'm harvesting a lot. For me more useful is Coordination, but on monsters with 60-70 attack (they have less defense) I had a lot of problems of I can kill monsters too fast with a lot of coordination and get not much exp from each monster. Besides, for Archer will be more useful Instinct, especially if you training at night for more experience and more accuracy.

 

Physique and Coordination. What to get more? They both increase Might - EMU and Power of your hits. Don't take them too much. You can makes more damage and kill monsters too fast. Coordination recommend to be more than Physique, because Coordination increase your chance to avoid to hit (Reaction) and get Defense exp of this hit, besides, Physique reduce your damage, you can get less damage, but you will not get def exp from these hits, which you are not avoided.

 

Dexterity: Chance to make successful hit.

Coordination - also increases Might, Max EMU and Reaction (chance to avoid enemy's hit).

Reasoning - also increases Perception(Accuracy of Archery and Night Vision) and Rationality(More exp, more fast reading book, more power of Spells).

 

If you are not Archer, better to give full Coordination for Dexterity at first. Perception goods for Archers, but Rationality goods for Mages only, because it can increase a bit exp of manufacturing, alchemy, crafting, etc... speed of books - It's useless because you need to read a lot of books at first time only. For example, I'm not reading books few months already. But if you will need Suddenly any books very fast - fast reading place is best for it :)

 

Total:

1. I think, better to give recommendation in 4 cross-attributes like Might, Toughness, Reaction and Dexterity (m/t/r/d) for all mobs. Toughness and Reaction for Resists to monsters, and Might to kill them faster, Dexterity for makes higher chance for successful hits (and get more attack exp).

2. Might can tune your speed of killing monsters. If you have not enough Might - you should to flee for get exp from one monsters when you stop to get exp in battle. If you have too much Might - you can kill them too fast, and can get only 30-60% of possible experience, which you could get of that monster. I think, better to give recommended level of Might for kill monster to finish levels, for example, train on fluffies until attack 105. It means, how much Might need for kill fluffie with 15 or so hits with attack 105. For less attack levels you can help sword or bone for make more damage.

3. You can balance of Might with getting more Coordination or Instinct - Coordination add Might, Instinct - not. If you need more Reaction and NOT more Might - you should to get Instinct, if you need more Reaction and Might - you should to get Coordination.

4. Dexterity - chance to make successful hit. I think, when monster stronger - you should to get more Dexterity to make him damage. Might is Power of your hits, Dexterity is Accuracy of your hits. Don't forget to get more Dexterity for success hits :)

 

UPD. I've got a big confusing with Might and Dexterity at first version of this post, please reread it before posting your replies :)

Edited by SunriseCoder

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Can't talk for Korrode, but here's few cents.

Giving recommendations as cross attributes wouldn't serve the purpose of the guide. The guide is imo designed for those that prefer easy and foolproof way of leveling. If the recommendations were given based on cross attributes, you'd need to decide between the main attributes and then ppl would just ask Korrode or someone else which one to choose.

Also an important point in giving the attributes as they are is longevity. The mob ladder is fine tuned. If you just took reaction and spent pps in instinct instead of coordination, you'd be forced to grind longer for pps so that the future trainable monsters would be good. What comes to comments on might, the recommendations are well thought for. With the suggestions made by Korrode you will get as good exp as you can as a basic trainer, which is the basic segment the guide is designed for. Replacing an attribute with another will likely result in fail. If there was a better way to put pps for a basic trainer, we'd tell.

 

On a sidenote reaction and dexterity could also be ignored and given as recommended def lvl without buffs. If you want monster with rec pure def 100, you just add def+reaction+equipment bonus and decide what you need. It's just too much hassle to bother testing all mobs to give the pure def for decent blocks. Been there, it sucks.

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SunriseCoder,

 

I can't say I agree with Korrode about everything. We have argued about a number of things. Arguing with him in game can be kind of fun for me, in fact.

 

I will say one thing for Korrode. He does know alot about combat. I think most of his advice is meant for people who's main goal is to be a strong fighter. As for me, that is not my main concern, but raising my A/D has made it so I can mix in more places....and laugh as a fluffy and cyclops ignore me.

 

Phys/Coord are focussed on by fighters because of efficiency. Less pickpoints to get to the top monsters.

 

I don't know what your priorities are in the game. You might be a fighter that wants to power level till you can kill any monster or you might have other interests. You might be like me. I dunno. For me though (remember that fighting is not my main concern), the will attribute is also important. More precisely, the will attribute is the 3rd most important attribute. I use 20's will, 30's phys, 40's coord. I will raise will more after coord is maxed. By the way, I train on feros and fluffy and my stats are open to the public.

Edited by nathanstenzel

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He hasn't only give p/c... The beginning of the post talks about the vit and starting reas. Throughout the guide he talks about increasing r/i/v. I know this guide isnt always mixer friendly, but what you can do is use el-cel and figure out what the cross attr's are and try and get as close to what is provided with your build. People who have invested in will instead of vit might want to think about increasing phys earlier to keep up the toughness or increase inst to also counteract the loss of toughness by trying to dodge more. People who have will builds should definitely think about eva perk (all fighters should) to help make your PP go farther. I am sure if you are interested in other ways of training a/d with a mixer build, I am sure there are plenty of people that can post a guide for that. Korrode has made an amazing guide, but not everyone will agree with it. I follow his guide almost to the tee except for i like 24/48 p/c on fluff/cyc. Does that make this build not suit me? no... I <3 what korrode has done with his research.

 

Keep it up!

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Giving recommendations as cross attributes wouldn't serve the purpose of the guide. The guide is imo designed for those that prefer easy and foolproof way of leveling. If the recommendations were given based on cross attributes, you'd need to decide between the main attributes and then ppl would just ask Korrode or someone else which one to choose.

this

 

 

edit:

and as some others touched on, the basic attribs being highly phys and coord oriented at the start is to use the minimum pp's required to achieve the might/tough/dex/react requirements.

 

Someone like yourself (Sunrise) who understands the attribute system well can calculate the cross-attribs that my basic-attrib recommendations would equate to and can, as you said, achieve them however they like.

 

 

 

edit2: completely off-topic...

i really need to clean up this guide, there's too many edited-in-comments strewn all through it.

Edited by Korrode

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Someone like yourself (Sunrise) who understands the attribute system well can calculate the cross-attribs that my basic-attrib recommendations would equate to and can, as you said, achieve them however they like.

 

 

Yes, I can, it's not hardly, but there is one problem. I'm not good in combat, I'm 80s a/d and sometimes ask my guildmates what to use pickpoints for.

 

Your guide is really cool and helpful, but I'm harvesting a lot of Iron for hydro bars, and I try to have max of EMU. If I will calculate all cross-attributes of your recomendation, and will try to solve system of equations - I will get same base attributes as source. The problem is I don't know which cross-attributes is required for monster fight, and which attributes is NOT required.

 

PS. Yesterday I understood my mistake about 64 mana point is enough - it was not enough in yesterday our 60-80 inSTance. But for just training it's more than enough

 

PPS. Is there any guides for tank building - less attack level and very great defence level, for example, a/d 30/80 or more difference between attack and defence levels?

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The problem is I don't know which cross-attributes is required for monster fight, and which attributes is NOT required.

The Dexterity and Reaction are required. Accuracy and Defense from a weapon can affect it, but as described next, using a weapon is generally bad on a single spawn.

 

Up until MCW, the Might I suggest is to box them (no weapon). Boxing is best because barring just a couple of exceptions, equipping any weapon will increase the range of damage you can do, which is bad for consistent per-hit damage infliction.

 

Up until Yeti/Trice, the Toughness I suggest will, with suitable armor equipped, make u absorb all non-crit damage. So it's certainly not required at all, but it will reduce equipment breakages... and at Yeti and LOrc, it will make u sometimes absorb all non-crit, so it's still helping.

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It's been brought to my attention that the Polar Bear had a stats change and is now stronger. Until someone who understands combat well tests training it and lets me know the deal, it's stricken from the guide.

I know, polar bears are 70/70 a/d now.

I've killed 1k them after ogres. I was bored when I started to kill ogres too fast.

Polar Bears was my rescue after ogres started to ignore me.

 

I can't give any recommendations about p/c for polar bears, but I think, it should be enough like ogres (20/28).

I can't test it, because I'm overhead now and preparing to jump to fluffies.

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It's been brought to my attention that the Polar Bear had a stats change and is now stronger. Until someone who understands combat well tests training it and lets me know the deal, it's stricken from the guide.

I know, polar bears are 70/70 a/d now.

I've killed 1k them after ogres. I was bored when I started to kill ogres too fast.

Polar Bears was my rescue after ogres started to ignore me.

 

I can't give any recommendations about p/c for polar bears, but I think, it should be enough like ogres (20/28).

I can't test it, because I'm overhead now and preparing to jump to fluffies.

 

I would put them somewhere in between ogres and armed fem. orcs. I would suggest going to polar bears after ogres and just skip armed orcs, as they do lotsa criticals and are expensive to train on.

 

im 72/77 a/d and im still at polars getting 250k OA exp/hour and will probably stick here til 85def and head straight for fluffs.

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