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Would you like to see the weight of att and def increased?

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Yes, I'd like to see a/d more important in determining hit/miss

However, it seems natural (to me) that attributes are important in how much damage you absorb and deal (as in: a/d training helps you duck and hit fast, physical constitution, aka attributes, helps hitting hard and absorbing more)

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I wonder how much making a/d matter more in combat will affect the newbs that wish to get some low level armor and train a/d.

 

Is the intention to make it so that if you can fight monster X ok, you can instead beat it and move on to the next creature?

 

If your a/d level is ok for fighting monster X right now, is there a chance that this might make it so you can't fight it because your a/d level is not good enough yet?

 

Don't monsters have a/d levels? If so, won't think change what monsters everyone should be fighting or could fight successfully?

 

Will this affect how likely a summoned dear is to kill a lowly beaver? Sometimes, summons die fighting monsters that are supposed to be weaker than them.

Edited by nathanstenzel

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I wonder how much making a/d matter more in combat will affect the newbs that wish to get some low level armor and train a/d.

 

Is the intention to make it so that if you can fight monster X ok, you can instead beat it and move on to the next creature?

 

If your a/d level is ok for fighting monster X right now, is there a chance that this might make it so you can't fight it because your a/d level is not good enough yet?

 

Don't monsters have a/d levels? If so, won't think change what monsters everyone should be fighting or could fight successfully?

 

Will this affect how likely a summoned dear is to kill a lowly beaver? Sometimes, summons die fighting monsters that are supposed to be weaker than them.

Newbies should fight creatures who are lower or at the same level... this won't change.

 

And about those folks who said "bah, its just another advantage for teh fighters, etc", think about it, you could then be competitive without getting too many neggies, since most pure fighters have more pps at their disposal anyways.

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BIG NO!

 

Current system is really good, attribs have high influence to character. Becouse we have attribs in current form we can make diffrent build types, not based only on PCV. Becouse of attribs, weak can beat stronger (just a bit, but still), no need 100/100 a/d to slain lenny and no need 120/120 a/d to do bethel invasions.

Attribs make this game more interesting, force ppl to use tactics. Increasing a/d weight will be huge rewind for most EL players.

In my case: why i should killing inva clops (who i currently train) in PL or DP if I can go MrM for FCW? If a/d weight will be increased = no fun for me. Can I kill inva fluff? Currently yes (easy), but after this change I dont think so (or it will be extremely hard).

You guys want fresh blood in PK? So why you try to keep them away?

Right now, I agree with you. If anyone wants me to change my mind, they need to answer my questions in Post #52

 

There seems to be a tug of war between people that want to get the fresh blood in and folk that want pro fighters to still whoop the butts of anyone that is in good gear or have great stats.

 

I don't think anyone has considered that monsters have a/d levels and it would probably effect them too.

 

It could be that they just want to load up on physique and vitality because coordination and reasoning wouldn't matter much for hit/block after such a change. Increasing only p/v would allow them to get a character really strong really quick with the proposed changes.....and then instead of OMG Overpowered Mages/Summoners, it woould be OMG Overpowered p/v based fighters.

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roflol, and where is it stated that reaction and dexterity will be made useless?

How about we face it that the change is not going to make the attributes half of current value. It's just useless to assume the change is 80% to a/d and 20% to attributes setting or so. If something at that scale was done the whole system would need to be redone in many parts.

 

Point here, attributes still matter. Attributes _will_ give you power over those with less attributes. But if you have same attributes, the a/d will give small upper hand and reduces the luck factor. Now also if you get a good gangbang, the def penalty will have more effect bringing that omg so OP person you are ganging to slight more hard time.

 

And what comes to lower level monsters... you can train to 60's without coord at all already. It will be just more enjoyable if you have ~20-24 coord. What ppl do now is skip some monsters and compensate a/d with coord, then get unhappy for low exp due to high might while they'd be able to get better overall exp from lower level mob in most cases.

 

And if we assume a newcomer will get killed by a rat... fail. You have 7/7 on start, many don't know to put pps in and go fight rat. You have a/d above them and no attributes set, those low beasties aren't really coord monsters either, are they? To me it looks it will be easier for new player (if even noticeable at all)

And wolf or goblin? You don't need coord for them atm, just some def. Put on uni med and a shield and suddenly a wolf is heavenly creature. For newcomer it's just bonus since they'll have the def with medallion + shield already good enough to train.

 

Ogre? 70/50 if I got it right. Ppl in 50's are doing them... how? With overdone p/c, they would get lot better exp from lower monsters (ofc some use instinct too). 50's can serp ogres for drops, good exp training - not really the case, lower monsters are better. And if you're 60's those attributes will be enough still, who said they'd be negated? On good side, the natural training chain might be more followed and more spawns used, not just the ogres. Just in theory, in perfect world.

 

I just refuse to believe that the tweaking would be made so drastic that attributes wouldn't count anymore. You don't trust the devs?

Edited by Dugur

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Heh, Dugur pointed the fact, which most of those NO NO NO This sux ppl missed, or didnt want to see.

 

whats being offered by Korrode, doesnt mean that attribs would be equal to 0 in fighting system.

 

imgagine your self having 44/44 p/c instead of 48/48, would it make such a huge difference at your training atm? wouldnt you be able to train same mob as you are now? i would say you would even get better exp.

 

And ofc, ppl will always complayn as some changes makes them weaker, especially those who has bought loads of PPs to make a big diff in fighting, training etc. But see this, i know a person who trained ( if i can call it training) Fluffs with 60-70s a/d, i think there is no need to mention that he had too much p/c.. you think its good? fair? logical?

 

what i think is , with some adjustments ppl would train on monsters which they should train, and etc etc etc ....

 

Ofc it depends on how much it can be adjusted to have this system work better, not worse.

 

and i still agree with this idea, and those NO NO NO.. dont be so selfish :icon13: ok, not all of you, but some should.. :icon13:

 

Edit: oh and pls explain me, why you could not have advantages of your strategy, buildup, if there was this change?

Edited by Kornholio

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Note, this topic is about making a/d matter more. Mentioning PP buying, although it has some part in this, makes the topic very likely to get hijacked to offtopic :S

Good point :S

 

Already it's begun :icon13:

I also Voted No on the removal of PP thread. Hard to implement and how to repay the player that worked hard for the bought PP.

PP buying is part of this and that thread is locked so can not say much bout it on that thread. People work hard to get what they got and just cause a lot of people in your guild, including you, are now on reset you think that A/D should matter more now. Keep changing items that people have word hard to aquire then they leave the game.

DaveMage, AttilaTheHun

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PP buying is part of this and that thread is locked so can not say much bout it on that thread. People work hard to get what they got and just cause a lot of people in your guild, including you, are now on reset you think that A/D should matter more now. Keep changing items that people have word hard to aquire then they leave the game.

DaveMage, AttilaTheHun

 

So nice how people can always look at these things in an objective way.....

 

This thing isn't about just annihilating the effect of the attributes completely, it's a discussion about possibly balancing/finetuning combat. Doesn't mean attributes wouldn't matter at all, just means that the people who worked for years (or payed someone to work for them...) actually do get a bit more advantage of the years of grinding done on the character. Kind of turns your own argument against you now eh?

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this discussion doesnt touch the problem imho.

As long as ppl buy characters that were levelled for years, i dont care if the a/d levels are bought or their PPs are. Both is crap, if you face those ppl with a 'normal' char.

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i agree with dugur @ "What ppl do now is skip some monsters and compensate a/d with coord"

exampel,ogres(ppl do em in 50s),fluffy(lots start fluffs with 70s a/d,and this creature is 95/95)etc etc

kinda sux

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I would like to see the 'weight' increased.

What Inglor said "A real warrior is well rounded and can alc, summon, and other skills. oa attributes give you credit for this."

- If your a fighter/PKer, you cannot level these other skills, and still be a tough PKer without buying pp's (and let me tell you, the majority of the game does not waste there $ buying PPs)

If the weight were to increase, we would rely less on p/c/w.e and maybe start thinking about lvling summoning or manu. That would be cool!

Edited by Mauler

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I think things r fine as they r... such a change would just make all ppl the same despite their choise of attribs..

also a/d matters more depending the a/d gap between players/mobs u fight than attribs and that's nice too..

so i would vote for things to stay as they r..

 

I voted yes to pps n nexus buying too... I think this demand comes from ppl lazy or bored to raise their char asking to have the same attribs with ppl working for too long and really hard for them.. when they can just work hard and do the same..

Edited by ghio

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I voted yes to pps n nexus buying too... I think this demand comes from ppl lazy or bored to raise their char asking to have the same attribs with ppl working for too long and really hard for them..

 

Ermmm Ermmm this isnt about PP buying and this statement ^^ contridicts (sp) why you said no to a/d holding more weight ( READ: More, not all, not most just more ) as people who havent been "lazy and bored" will have a bigger advantage than those that have.

 

God forbid people will have to actually train their chars rather than just buy PP's (wether through stones or neg perks)

Edited by conavar

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God forbid people will have to actually train their chars rather than just buy PP's (wether through stones or neg perks)

Very well said :)

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Right now, I agree with you. If anyone wants me to change my mind, they need to answer my questions in Post #52

 

There seems to be a tug of war between people that want to get the fresh blood in and folk that want pro fighters to still whoop the butts of anyone that is in good gear or have great stats.

 

I don't think anyone has considered that monsters have a/d levels and it would probably effect them too.

 

It could be that they just want to load up on physique and vitality because coordination and reasoning wouldn't matter much for hit/block after such a change. Increasing only p/v would allow them to get a character really strong really quick with the proposed changes.....and then instead of OMG Overpowered Mages/Summoners, it woould be OMG Overpowered p/v based fighters.

(Ok I can be long winded, you have been warned :) )

 

Mr. Nathan Stenzel, I can assure you this is also about PvE, I now purely fight monsters, and this is a very key element to a PvE's

enjoyment of this game. It is also about allowing fighters to explore over skills without massive penalties. No other skills have to make

so many compromises, and the allure of negatives to play. I just want to fight monsters in invasions without my A\D amounting to nothing,

since my OA is currently low. It really silly that despite having a large AD I can do nothing without high OA and negs as well. I'm 50 manu

and (with nexus) I can still mix the same items with the same success level, but I cannot do the same with combat. Attributes will still have

the ability to specialize and change a build from tank to hitter, and so on.

 

Why is this such a terrible thing to ask for? Why should combat have such a dependency?

And why must every post by Attack and Defense skills degrade to:

"Im a peacenik and all pkers are evil, I have lost touch with reality, and will oppose any change good for the game, just to spite them"

 

As conavar stated, this only make combat dependent on leveling the skill itself to increase you power, and not by so many external

and exploitable means, sounds like a way to keep the balanced.

 

On the topic of els economy dependent on hydro for nexus\etc, I recall the time before this was the case.

I could easily sell FEs still then, and the market was highly dynamic, I made all my early gc trading animal furs. I

certain this wouldn't destroy the games econ, but just move it in other directions.

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LOL @ destroying the economy, really. There are many unfulfilled demands for HEs/AEs/EnEs/LEs, see other thread in this same forum. People could just make those instead of steel bars all day.

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this only make combat dependent on leveling the skill itself to increase you power, and not by so many external

and exploitable means, sounds like a way to keep the balanced.

 

And also the way the system is now, you can increase your Fighting power by leveling non fighting skills

 

Train alch > OA = PP's > PP's in attributes > higher fighting power

 

Kinda like having an increased chance to manu dragon plate by training ranging :)

Edited by conavar

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Right now, I agree with you. If anyone wants me to change my mind, they need to answer my questions in Post #52

 

There seems to be a tug of war between people that want to get the fresh blood in and folk that want pro fighters to still whoop the butts of anyone that is in good gear or have great stats.

 

I don't think anyone has considered that monsters have a/d levels and it would probably effect them too.

 

It could be that they just want to load up on physique and vitality because coordination and reasoning wouldn't matter much for hit/block after such a change. Increasing only p/v would allow them to get a character really strong really quick with the proposed changes.....and then instead of OMG Overpowered Mages/Summoners, it woould be OMG Overpowered p/v based fighters.

(Ok I can be long winded, you have been warned :) )

 

Mr. Nathan Stenzel, I can assure you this is also about PvE, I now purely fight monsters, and this is a very key element to a PvE's

enjoyment of this game. It is also about allowing fighters to explore over skills without massive penalties. No other skills have to make

so many compromises, and the allure of negatives to play. I just want to fight monsters in invasions without my A\D amounting to nothing,

since my OA is currently low. It really silly that despite having a large AD I can do nothing without high OA and negs as well. I'm 50 manu

and (with nexus) I can still mix the same items with the same success level, but I cannot do the same with combat. Attributes will still have

the ability to specialize and change a build from tank to hitter, and so on.

 

Why is this such a terrible thing to ask for? Why should combat have such a dependency?

And why must every post by Attack and Defense skills degrade to:

"Im a peacenik and all pkers are evil, I have lost touch with reality, and will oppose any change good for the game, just to spite them"

 

As conavar stated, this only make combat dependent on leveling the skill itself to increase you power, and not by so many external

and exploitable means, sounds like a way to keep the balanced.

 

On the topic of els economy dependent on hydro for nexus\etc, I recall the time before this was the case.

I could easily sell FEs still then, and the market was highly dynamic, I made all my early gc trading animal furs. I

certain this wouldn't destroy the games econ, but just move it in other directions.

I didn't say I oppose this because of evil pkers. I had a number of questions which nobody has bothered to answer and I seriously don't think any of you have considered that creatures have a/d too. Any problem should be looked at from every possible angle before making a change and it is usually best to try to reduce the negative impacts of a change....in this case by doing it gradually.

 

New questions:

If a/d has more weight and you will kill a monster faster/slower, don't you think that the number of hits to kill it will change and effect xp?

If the a/d has more weight, will that also effect the the a/d xp per hit/block?

 

You guys really should consider the side-effects of changes before you ask for them. If you don't, you might get a change and then found out you upset the balance of Your game or the balance of the Entire game and be rather pissed at yourselves.

 

If someone wants me to change my mind, answer my damned questions already.

Edited by nathanstenzel

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New questions:

If a/d has more weight and you will kill a monster faster/slower, don't you think that the number of hits to kill it will change and effect xp?

If the a/d has more weight, will that also effect the the a/d xp per hit/block?

 

You won't kill monster faster or slower, that is what might does. If your hitting / dodging chance is altered by reducing the effect of rection/dexterity, no change in damage. Yes, attack gives more damage. Yes, defence reduces damage. Atm they play minor part comparing to attributes, but we talk of increasing value of a/d in hitting/blocking.

A/D exp / hit is as before. Only your rationality gives bonus to exp, rection and dexterity have nothing to do with exp but the hitting / dodging.

 

Atm 1 reaction / dexterity = 1 def / attack.

If you change this, for example, to 1 : 0,8 - what happens? Do the math and imagine how drastically it will ruin everything. It's different to think side effects and imagine side effects.

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New questions:

If a/d has more weight and you will kill a monster faster/slower, don't you think that the number of hits to kill it will change and effect xp?

If the a/d has more weight, will that also effect the the a/d xp per hit/block?

 

You won't kill monster faster or slower, that is what might does. If your hitting / dodging chance is altered by reducing the effect of rection/dexterity, no change in damage. Yes, attack gives more damage. Yes, defence reduces damage. Atm they play minor part comparing to attributes, but we talk of increasing value of a/d in hitting/blocking.

A/D exp / hit is as before. Only your rationality gives bonus to exp, rection and dexterity have nothing to do with exp but the hitting / dodging.

 

Atm 1 reaction / dexterity = 1 def / attack.

If you change this, for example, to 1 : 0,8 - what happens? Do the math and imagine how drastically it will ruin everything. It's different to think side effects and imagine side effects.

The speed at which you kill a monster would have to do with A. how often you manage to hit and B. how much damage dealt.

 

Were you assuming I was referring to a combat situation where you can almost always hit the creature every single time?

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New questions:

If a/d has more weight and you will kill a monster faster/slower, don't you think that the number of hits to kill it will change and effect xp?

If the a/d has more weight, will that also effect the the a/d xp per hit/block?

 

You won't kill monster faster or slower, that is what might does. If your hitting / dodging chance is altered by reducing the effect of rection/dexterity, no change in damage. Yes, attack gives more damage. Yes, defence reduces damage. Atm they play minor part comparing to attributes, but we talk of increasing value of a/d in hitting/blocking.

A/D exp / hit is as before. Only your rationality gives bonus to exp, rection and dexterity have nothing to do with exp but the hitting / dodging.

 

Atm 1 reaction / dexterity = 1 def / attack.

If you change this, for example, to 1 : 0,8 - what happens? Do the math and imagine how drastically it will ruin everything. It's different to think side effects and imagine side effects.

The speed at which you kill a monster would have to do with A. how often you manage to hit and B. how much damage dealt.

 

Were you assuming I was referring to a combat situation where you can almost always hit the creature every single time?

 

"the number of hits to kill it"

The damage you deal will be same. This is thanks to your might. Monsters have fixed HP. You will have same amount of hits to kill one. Only changing is the calculations behind if you hit or if you block. Now if you already are fighting wrong level mobs, you are getting shit exp and getting killed while doing it. After change it will still be the same. If you now train smoothly on monster you might actually want to do the math behind the example of 20% tweaking and then think again. The training change is minimal. In game you grind manymany levels on same mobs, just look at the ogre - fluff - feros cycle. Mobs below these anyway have minor attributes that the change won't be affecting players in my eyes, unless you can actually show something _valid_.

Edited by Dugur

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You won't kill monster faster or slower, that is what might does. If your hitting / dodging chance is altered by reducing the effect of rection/dexterity, no change in damage. Yes, attack gives more damage. Yes, defence reduces damage. Atm they play minor part comparing to attributes, but we talk of increasing value of a/d in hitting/blocking.

A/D exp / hit is as before. Only your rationality gives bonus to exp, rection and dexterity have nothing to do with exp but the hitting / dodging.

 

Atm 1 reaction / dexterity = 1 def / attack.

If you change this, for example, to 1 : 0,8 - what happens? Do the math and imagine how drastically it will ruin everything. It's different to think side effects and imagine side effects.

The speed at which you kill a monster would have to do with A. how often you manage to hit and B. how much damage dealt.

 

Were you assuming I was referring to a combat situation where you can almost always hit the creature every single time?

 

"the number of hits to kill it"

The damage you deal will be same. This is thanks to your might. Monsters have fixed HP. You will have same amount of hits to kill one. Only changing is the calculations behind if you hit or if you block. Now if you already are fighting wrong level mobs, you are getting shit exp and getting killed while doing it. After change it will still be the same. If you now train smoothly on monster you might actually want to do the math behind the example of 20% tweaking and then think again. The training change is minimal. In game you grind manymany levels on same mobs, just look at the ogre - fluff - feros cycle. Mobs below these anyway have minor attributes that the change won't be affecting players in my eyes, unless you can actually show something _valid_.

I said faster and you say the number of hits. One is referring to time and one is referring to a count. Even if it did take the same number of hits, the time would be different and the number of blocks would probably change as well.

 

Were you watching me train? You don't know anything about my training unless you see it or I tell you. Don't comment on what you don't know. I'm bored with ogre. They don't kill me. They do give me shitty xp now.

 

The proposed change was "increase the weight of a/d" and not "decrease the weight of attribs on chance to hit/block". Those two are totally different.

 

I can't help it if you can't/won't see what is and what is not valid. Your logic is flawed.

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radu said a/d already count twice as much as attributes

 

[radu @ 6]: in combat there are 2 important things

[radu @ 6]: chance to hit, and damage

[radu @ 6]: both are calculated from a/d and cross attributes

[radu @ 6]: now you already know that

[radu @ 6]: for chance to hit, both the attributes and a/d play the same role

[radu @ 6]: however, for damage, the a/d are TWICE as heavy as the attributes

[radu @ 6]: I mean cross attributes

[radu @ 6]: so if you get 12 PPs, that means 6 cross attributes

[radu @ 6]: at best, they equal 3 a/d (or 6 a or 6 d)

[radu @ 6]: and at worst, they equal 1.5 a/d

[radu @ 6]: I mean 0.5*

[radu @ 6]: per a/d

[radu @ 6]: so as you can see, say you have 60 PPs bought

[radu @ 6]: then at the very most that's 15 a/d

[radu @ 6]: or 7.5 a/d when calculated for damage

[radu @ 6]: so not the end of the fuckign world

[radu @ 6]: a good armor or sword is worth more

 

*waits for lorck to bring up linear mathematics and prove radu wrong*

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I said faster and you say the number of hits. One is referring to time and one is referring to a count. Even if it did take the same number of hits, the time would be different and the number of blocks would probably change as well.

 

Were you watching me train? You don't know anything about my training unless you see it or I tell you. Don't comment on what you don't know. I'm bored with ogre. They don't kill me. They do give me shitty xp now.

 

The proposed change was "increase the weight of a/d" and not "decrease the weight of attribs on chance to hit/block". Those two are totally different.

 

I can't help it if you can't/won't see what is and what is not valid. Your logic is flawed.

 

Tbh, I don't care how you train or what you train. It has nothing to do with this and I honestly think I never mentioned an example as you training or referred to your training in any way.

But now that you mentioned it, looking at your stats and knowing you do ogres... You have 58/66 a/d with 22/24 p/c with 8 reason. On ogres you hit ~95% of time atm, mhm? Blocking is often enough to call it training. You don't really _have to_ flee because with bone might is enough to kill it ~15 hits, but fleeing adds some more def and is better oa exp on single spawn. Your future in a/d training is about 10 more def levels on ogres, congratulations.

Now "Would you like to see the weight of att and def increased?" can be done two ways: increase weight of a/d or decrease weight of dext/reason. I looked into it with example of reducing attributes weight, ofc it can be done other way round.

I offered you something easy to look into so it's more convenient to think of possible changes. You already have reaction higher than that of ogres, this is why you manage to block it so convenient. If your current reaction of 14 is valued with 0,8 multiplier instead of 1, you have it 11. In practise 3 def levels. Got astro? Notice how astro works for you? See how huge difference it is atm there?

 

And going with the calculations of giving +20% or something to the a and d instead...

Ogre ad becomes 84/60 value in rolls (but is still 70/50).

You become ~70/79. Without tweak you had 4 difference in ogre a vs your d, now it'd be 5. You still get that blocking help from your cross attributes and still train like normally. Astro is worse.

 

This has got to look terrible change. Real percentages to be decided by development team.

 

I can't help it if you can't/won't see what is and what is not valid.

 

Oh, and I didn't create the combat system, I'm just a consumer and offer simplified way to look into it. If I have given some specualtions that are heavily out of reality, give me some time out of forums with a ban.

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