Would you like to see the weight of att and def increased?

[SenZon]

Did ALOT of testing, PvE and PvP. I really like it as well, monsters weaker then me i do i bit better. PvP i noticed that i dont get hit as much as before. Fought a few monsters - Legionnaire Orcs, Yeti, Cockatrice, Giants, Red/Black Dragons all seem to be nice since i have same or higher a/d as them, feel like i blocked them alot better. Just need to do a instance now, but i fought 80% of the monsters that are in the instance but i still do plan on testing in a instance will keep you all updated.

[robotbob]

I tested PvE. (2-ish hours so far)

 

My dexterity and reaction are 4/4. (might 21, toughness 21)

 

I tested feros\dc\fc\mcs, at first totally naked, no armor no med.

Against feros I was able to comfortable train them, without armor or a med, and could probably do it without a col.

Since this is my primary source of exp currently, this is short of outstanding for me.

Against DCs, I noticed more dodged and increased hits, and could purely def train them, do to my low might.

 

Prior to the change, I currently block 0/10 of the FCs hits, and now I block something like 3/10.

Which is nice since normally at dex\reaction 4/4, you are a weak and easily killed.

 

I don't have any positive perks, but I can see with this change, their 'weight' will be much more profound for the

cost of the pps to buy them. (Or cape usage)

 

(Prior to my reset I could def train MCs, without taking much damage. So I believe with additional PPs. This would be my

training monster with this change. I normally train in augs, too cheap to risk anything )

 

In closing, I agree with Dilly, not a huge change, but this is definitely balancing to PvE. I feel an all-rounder will be able to

enjoy invasions without feeling crippled. So this will help the causal player, at least IMHO.

 

So I love it and hope this test goes live.

[nathanstenzel]

Will this round up? Will you need to have not just 1 reaction/dexterity, but a number of them for this to count?

 

Against cyclops, I seem to be a little stronger with the change.

Against fluffy, I am quite a bit weaker and can't hit it as often as I am used to. I get hit alot more often.

Against male ogre, I do about the same. They bore me.

 

Newb char testing is up next.

Edited October 13, 2009 by nathanstenzel

[Infamous]

balancing? weak get weaker not being able to fight stronger monsters, strong players get stronger

in the long run weak players wont be able to level up faster by training monsters a bit above their lvls, strong players just keep powerleveling making the gaps bigger

[nathanstenzel]

balancing? weak get weaker not being able to fight stronger monsters, strong players get stronger

in the long run weak players wont be able to level up faster by training monsters a bit above their lvls, strong players just keep powerleveling making the gaps bigger

That was probably what they were aiming for. That is my vote.....still.

[conavar]

If there is an inbalance then atleast it has been earned through leveling the relative skill and not just bought with Pickpoints

[SenZon]

Amen to that.

[korrode]

The point is, the definition of "strong", the characteristics that make up "strong", will change a little.

 

If currently "strength" is defined by X% a/d and Y% attribs, after the change it would be defined something like (X% + 10) a/d and (Y% - 10) attribs.

 

What is it you people are finding so hard to grasp about the logic of COMBAT training equating to COMBAT strength?

Would you like it if we linked your ability to succeed in manufacturing to Perception? or Rationality?

Then you could have some pickpoint buyer with only 2/3 your manu level failing less at making equipment than you.

[Infamous]

might be, but its better to spend time on actually doing something that makes everyone happy and motivates people to go pk instead of wasting time on something just a couple of people want, which doesnt solve anything but making a bigger gap and piss off some people

 

http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.p...st&p=514707

http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.p...st&p=514529

 

some posts where it been said that training 5-10years will not motivate people to go pk, fact that multiple people have pointed out is that lower lvls lvl slightly slower, strong players can just keep training on their monsters since they can train anything anyway.

 

"then atleast it has been earned through leveling the relative skill and not just bought with Pickpoints"

 

and that should count for something why? pp have been earned too, they relate to a/d, so i dont see why they should imbalance things just cause a few cant be bothered buying PP aswell

[nathanstenzel]

Been a while since I started a newb. Got bored of testing it. His name is Silly_Goose and his password is password if anyone wants to test things with it on the test server.

 

I really have to wonder if you will need different multiples of the attribute now. Maybe it would be better to change how many attribute points for those two sub-attributes than to make the sub-attributes worth less? Still, this not only affects pickpoint buyers and it has already been stated that you can't gain too many pp's through pickpoint buying.

 

I would prefer to shut the door on pickpoint buying than to go through with these changes, but I don't think any change needs to be done at all. Just let Radu focus on more important things, will ya? There are other portions of the game that actually Do need adjustment. This one does not.

 

Also, with Radu's math for attributes truncating the decimals......this notion makes a person wonder how many pickpoints you will need for that "magic number".

Remember, 15 reasoning + 14 will = 14 rationality

 

With this, you might need multiples of 6 instead of 2!

 

 

.....oh....and I DO NOT want to have to explain the details of how to choose pickpoint placement for brand new fighters under an even more complicated system!

 

Please excuse me, but this change has got me worried. It is bound to cause more confusion and trouble than do any good.

Edited October 14, 2009 by nathanstenzel

[korrode]

I would prefer to shut the door on pickpoint buying than to go through with these changes, but I don't think any change needs to be done at all. Just let Radu focus on more important things, will ya? There are other portions of the game that actually Do need adjustment. This one does not.

And you're an appropriate authority on whether or not melee combat needs adjustment, are you?

So you've leveled a char to high a/d, PK'ed a bunch, etc.?

 

Also, with Radu's math for attributes truncating the decimals......this notion makes a person wonder how many pickpoints you will need for that "magic number".

Remember, 15 reasoning + 14 will = 14 rationality

 

With this, you might need multiples of 6 instead of 2!

So, you're worried about having to figure something new out?

That presumes you already know everything about the current system, and hence why you would be against change... so then, tell me oh wise one, what amount of damage is absorbed per toughness?

 

.....oh....and I DO NOT want to have to explain the details of how to choose pickpoint placement for brand new fighters under an even more complicated system!

Based on some statements you've made in previous posts, you shouldn't be "explaining" anything about fighting to anyone.

 

---------------------

 

EDIT:

"then atleast it has been earned through leveling the relative skill and not just bought with Pickpoints"

 

and that should count for something why? pp have been earned too, they relate to a/d

Why should they impact so heavily on a/d and not the other skills?

 

Seriously, anyone who is against this change must also be willing to have it made so attribs have a huge impact on all the other skills too... if not, it's hypocritical.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Korrode

[conavar]

"then atleast it has been earned through leveling the relative skill and not just bought with Pickpoints"

 

and that should count for something why? pp have been earned too, they relate to a/d, so i dont see why they should imbalance things just cause a few cant be bothered buying PP aswell

 

I honestly hope your not asking why skill earned through leveling should count !!

 

and PP still relate to a/d and bought PP's will still make a differance in char development, that hasnt been removed , just more emphasis has been assigned to the actual Leveled Combat skill rather than the PP's which is how it should be.

 

 

.....oh....and I DO NOT want to have to explain the details of how to choose pickpoint placement for brand new fighters under an even more complicated system!

Based on some statements you've made in previous posts, you shouldn't be "explaining" anything about fighting to anyone.

 

Wait PP placement is hard ??? ermm isnt it P/C/R (how much depends on the player) then the players choice wether to go for Vit or Ins or a balance of the two.............. wow rocket science

 

Edit: And before some smartass says he means per mob.. I know.. but thats not hard either. just dont place any pickpoint till after trying the next mob in the chain.. give a near spot on indication where the pickpoints need to go

Edited October 14, 2009 by conavar

[nathanstenzel]

Korrode, it is not about figuring out something new.....it is having to explain it to newbs. That is my business.

 

I may have misunderstood what side of the equation was being modified for a moment. (shrugs)

 

This is sure to re-arrange training plans, I think. Not sure. Don't train as much after ogre stopped giving good xp.

Edited October 14, 2009 by nathanstenzel

[korrode]

Korrode, it is not about figuring out something new.....it is having to explain it to newbs. That is my business.

You know, that's actually very much my business too.

I've lost count on the amount of people i've helped setup their chars for training over the last couple of years. I have detailed guides in the private sections of guild forums, i discuss pickpoint placement, god choice, armor selection, equipment breaks avoidance, a/d for X mob, everything related... i even usually go on-site to monsters with people multiple times throughout their training to fine tune their setup. Some of the people i've spent a lot of time helping have gone on to be quite high a/d'ers, a couple have even surpassed me, and almost all of them have surpassed you.

 

So don't give me "oh it'll be too hard to explain" crap like i've never helped people with combat training.

[nathanstenzel]

Korrode, I can't claim to be as good at explaining combat better than someone that does that most of the time. I wasn't planning on it either.

Of course you would be better at explaining it than me. I'm a blacksmith, not a high level fighter.

[kgxjeff]

well i went and tired the test server along with many. didnt like it, once again pvp in it was geared towards making all equal, so that we can just sit there and fight till out srs run out. and yea pve is much easier now. me and boe kill ice drag melee np on test since its attributes took a huge hit, whereas on main we had problem tanking ice casue i assume of its high coord/reasoning. vote no for update if it even matters. and no im not only one other in kf said same as we were on test and no they dont include boe and infa.

[mattyu]

dont like :>

seems weird when i test it

[korrode]

pve is much easier now. me and boe kill ice drag melee np on test

Really? The 170/170 a/d ice dragon is easier for you with att & def having more weight?

Sure you're not imagining things?

 

If not, then i can only assume the change Radu's made is not what he previously stated.

 

 

dont like :>

seems weird when i test it

"seems weird" eh? care to elaborate at all?

Edited October 14, 2009 by Korrode

[Infamous]

what jeff said is true, with eva/def/inst pot i can tank it on boe char without having to flee

[Wizzy]

pve is much easier now. me and boe kill ice drag melee np on test

Really? The 170/170 a/d ice dragon is easier for you with att & def having more weight?

Sure you're not imagining things?

 

If not, then i can only assume the change Radu's made is not what he previously stated.

 

 

dont like :>

seems weird when i test it

"seems weird" eh? care to elaborate at all?

 

 

 

A few of the things I found wierd

 

Critical to hits where very very rare. even with rapier..I didnt have a tit axe to test, but you get the idea.

Fighting much higher a/d people, I would hit more often with an orcslayer, then I would with high acc wep (jagged saber). rapier cutlass etc where as usefull as a wooden stick.

 

Staff of protection, would normaly send some orange spam while I fight much higher a/ders, On test, it was noticebly much less

 

High a/ders where hitting me for seemingly quite a bit less damage then on main, this will lead to much longer fights with people with close to same a.d.

 

I also seem to make a little less damage and dodge a little less on fluffy.

 

I should add, I would get a lot more mirror hits, of course, because of course, I didnt dodge anything but 4 times during test

 

I am 83/86 a.d 40/16 p/c (48 reason)

Edited October 14, 2009 by Wizzy

[korrode]

A few of the things I found wierd

 

Critical to hits where very very rare. even with rapier..I didnt have a tit axe to test, but you get the idea.

Fighting much higher a/d people, I would hit more often with an orcslayer, then I would with high acc wep (jagged saber). rapier cutlass etc where as usefull as a wooden stick.

 

Staff of protection, would normaly send some orange spam while I fight much higher a/ders, On test, it was noticebly much less

 

High a/ders where hitting me for seemingly quite a bit less damage then on main, this will lead to much longer fights with people with close to same a.d.

Well unless Radu's made other changes significantly different to what he stated he would, none of that should have been affected.

 

Critical-to-hit is something that's very hard to test, because it's all luck.

You could fight for an hour with a rapier and hardly hit, and then next hour hit heaps.

 

As for an OS 'hitting' more than Js/cutty/rapier, again unless radu's changed other stuff, that shouldn't change... most likely the reason you'd appear to be not hitting would be because you weren't doing any damage (but were actually hitting), and this would be the same on the main server.

i.e.; see 148 attack char hit someone for ~15 damage with a halberd because of the toughness they've gained with pickpoint buying (i witness this first hand on the main server a couple of weeks back )

 

With the SoP, once again, it's rooted in luck.

Some days my MoL goes nuts, some days it barely heals me at all.

 

My point is, much of what you've reported as test results for the subject at hand are most likely unrelated, and most discrepancy you found with the main server can too easily be rooted in simple luck.

 

EDIT:

...so, i guess you're quite right; seems weird.

 

Would be nice if radu just told us exactly what he did

Edited October 14, 2009 by Korrode

[nathanstenzel]

(shrugs) Maybe he only adjusted the critical hit to normal hit ratio?

It could be that my luck vs the cyclops and fluffy were based on a difference in crits.

It could also be that he has a "luck" number that is added to other numbers and then compared to the opponent's numbers.

 

All just guessing, but it is amusing enough to post it.

[bigkav]

well i went and tired the test server along with many. didnt like it, once again pvp in it was geared towards making all equal, so that we can just sit there and fight till out srs run out. and yea pve is much easier now. me and boe kill ice drag melee np on test since its attributes took a huge hit, whereas on main we had problem tanking ice casue i assume of its high coord/reasoning. vote no for update if it even matters. and no im not only one other in kf said same as we were on test and no they dont include boe and infa.

tell me, how long you been playing? and how much do you actually know about the combat system? giving negative feedback, imo is purely because you serped senzon's spawn, without a rosto and died loosing ~600k+ bag. all senzon's posts, you have been 100% against, don't be bias in your "testing" because of personal feuds.

 

my results on this; a/d does help slightly more now, and the effect of attributes didn't seem to change whatsoever so what the fuck you got to complain about?

it's now hopefully changing to how it always should of been, a/d dependent. you won't lose your precious $/GC you investing into buying PPs, they'll still be there.

[Ermabwed]

I'm not really partial in regards to this idea, though I don't think it will help in the long run. Both this idea and the current system basically undermine the idea of a "soft cap".

Personally I am in favor of removing the current pickpoint buying system and replacing it with a system as outlined by anima in this very thread, which includes the compensation for already bought pickpoints as well, i.e. one would be able to place them in nexus being the things one paid for at the NPC.

 

Would you like it if we linked your ability to succeed in manufacturing to Perception? or Rationality?

Actually, in principle I would like that idea, it would make sense to have success for some items in tailoring/manufacturing tied to dexterity (using a needle as tool), or manufacturing recipes that require a hammer depending on some minimum level of might, or crafting requiring a certain ethereality level to make magic items, etc. Reaction could serve as a modifier in chance of critical failures. Of course, and here I'm with the reasoning behind this thread, attributes shouldn't be the paramount factor in determining success.

 

I might add that the way these skills currently depend on skill alone is by no way sufficient as in I don't think one should lose 1 in 100 sets of ingredients when multiples larger than 3 higher than the recommended level, same for tool breakage, one would think that after that much practice this should go down somewhat significantly.

[korrode]

Personally I am in favor of removing the current pickpoint buying system and replacing it with a system as outlined by anima in this very thread,

...and outlined programmatically by Vytukas in another thread.

 

Would you like it if we linked your ability to succeed in manufacturing to Perception? or Rationality?

Actually, in principle I would like that idea,

As anyone legitimately against what this thread suggests would.

 

I hope if Radu ends up not changing the combat rolls, in the name of fairness and balance, implements a system where attributes affect mixing.

 

Right now the only people physically capable of feeling an ill effect from other players buying pickpoints is PK'ers, but if Mr.PickPointBuyer is undercutting most of the market due to a somehow lessened cost/risk to mix items, i'm quite sure we'd suddenly see some much stronger opinions against PP buying from our non-combatant friends.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Korrode