Jump to content
Eternal Lands Official Forums
korrode

Would you like to see the weight of att and def increased?

Recommended Posts

EDIT: err Dreyan posted while i was, this is @Infa:

The impact on that would be minimal.

Edited by Korrode

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I say 100% yes.

Attributes have far too much effect on fighting power.

This is something that recently came to the forefront in my mind recently, due to my reset.

 

I currently have 4/4 dex\reaction and it take me quite a long time to kill anything, yet my

AD is quite high (my might is ~21). I also cannot fight anything near my AD level, only things < 20 levels below my

current AD level. Since there is no way to buy A\D levels, (without hijacking this thread) it would remove

and overpower effect caused by ..... You could still alter your build with attributes, and it will be noticeable against

players =<your AD, but not nullifying attack and defense levels themselves.

 

However the only negative is it will remove the ability to weaken yourself down so you can fight one monster, milking

exp from it for a long time without it dying. My current build is just this, but I am willing to change, fight monsters my AD for less

exp, because this would be a nice change to the current system. It would allow fighters to explore more of the game, since PPs will

no longer be an expensive commodity, and could help player retention, because they can fight\mix without suffering on either side.

 

That will make it closer to "classless"game, since you can really be anything. (But perks would still allow specialization)

 

I believe this change will make MORE strategy, because weapon etc usage would be much more profound, and reward

skill leveling over finances.

----

(For those that don't recall the game pre-caps, attributes alone then dictated everything. At DPa a Phys 20, Coord 90, 39\39 ad chara was

completely unstoppable. Attack and Defense levels basically meaningless, massive coordination was the only thing that mattered. (Not

counting the occasional massive physique builds.)

Edited by robotbob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
However the only negative is it will remove the ability to weaken yourself down so you can fight one monster, milking

exp from it for a long time without it dying.

How would it stop you doing that?

The question i asked only mentions the hit and dodge combat rolls, not the damage roll.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
However the only negative is it will remove the ability to weaken yourself down so you can fight one monster, milking

exp from it for a long time without it dying.

How would it stop you doing that?

The question i asked only mentions the hit and dodge combat rolls, not the damage roll.

 

I rarely hit, therefore it takes a long time to kill anything. It takes me an shocking amount of time to kill a Lion!.. ;)

This should not be the case, if you have 40-50 attack levels over a creatures defense, it should not require attributes to kill it :/

 

(I have 21 might, I do 1-7? per hit, if I use a star med and bone, so might & dexterity are more important to score a hit, then Attack)

So If I were hitting more often, then my monster would die much faster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
However the only negative is it will remove the ability to weaken yourself down so you can fight one monster, milking

exp from it for a long time without it dying.

How would it stop you doing that?

The question i asked only mentions the hit and dodge combat rolls, not the damage roll.

 

I rarely hit, therefore it takes a long time to kill anything. It takes me an shocking amount of time to kill a Lion!.. ;)

This should not be the case, if you have 40-50 attack levels over a creatures defense, it should not require attributes to kill it :/

You don't require the attributes, all you'd need is a weapon, even a very low end one.

 

(I have 21 might, I do 1-7? per hit, if I use a star med and bone, so might & dexterity are more important to score a hit, then Attack)

Well, in the case of you on lions, the dexterity is irrelevant.

 

If you're saying you think that attack's impact on damage (which currently is extremely small) should be increased as well, then ok i understand what you're saying then... but, making adjustments to damage and absorb properties of attack and defense is no where near as straight forward task as it is for hit and dodge properties.

 

Adjusting the weight of attack and defense in hit and dodge rolls is as simple as just that; adjusting it... but adjusting damage and absorb properties has the potential to unbalance PvE and PvP, and would need to be done very carefully, and may require stats changes to some creatures.

 

Consider that if the impact attack has on damage is upped significantly, very high level a/d'ers will just wipe out lower level people in a couple of swings, and things like dragons and giants and various instance creatures would all start hitting lower a/d people much harder too.

Edited by Korrode

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BIG NO!

 

Current system is really good, attribs have high influence to character. Becouse we have attribs in current form we can make diffrent build types, not based only on PCV. Becouse of attribs, weak can beat stronger (just a bit, but still), no need 100/100 a/d to slain lenny and no need 120/120 a/d to do bethel invasions.

Attribs make this game more interesting, force ppl to use tactics. Increasing a/d weight will be huge rewind for most EL players.

In my case: why i should killing inva clops (who i currently train) in PL or DP if I can go MrM for FCW? If a/d weight will be increased = no fun for me. Can I kill inva fluff? Currently yes (easy), but after this change I dont think so (or it will be extremely hard).

You guys want fresh blood in PK? So why you try to keep them away?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You don't require the attributes, all you'd need is a weapon, even a very low end one.

 

Maybe I should have said "additional stats" because that is all a 'weapon' is, a symbol that adds temporary stats.

So I should need additional stats to score a hit instead of 50 attack levels (and 50% might) over the creatures defense?

 

I should point out it takes a longer than expected to kill a lion with a ti serp as well.

Isn't this a problem? (barehanded, its like fighting a feros...) Not saying that a player should wield weapon like stats with

their bare hands, but attack should aid in damage when the levels are that vastly different.

 

But yes there is nothing to really worry about toughness and might on players, because most pkers have 48 might, and some tanks

pursue 48 toughness without massive imbalance.

 

Consider that if the impact attack has on damage is upped significantly, very high level a/d'ers will just wipe out lower level people in a couple of swings, and things like dragons and giants and various instance creatures would all start hitting lower a/d people much harder too.

 

Shouldn't someone with 40 AD levels over someone, completely devastate them? Why shouldn't this be the case?

I'm certain(not tested, doesn't sound fun, but from testing on cyclops) in my current reset state, a 80ad player in mediocre gear can easily kill me.

 

Weren't we(global sense, not personally directed) complaining about fights taking too long and weaker players using a particular weapon, that is now

changed, to beat someone with much higher AD. ;)

 

 

@nikodemus

  • Why do you think this is about PK?
  • Why should attributes should be more important than actual levels?

You just said yourself "weak can beat stronger (just a bit, but still), no need 100/100 a/d to slain lenny and no need 120/120 a/d to do bethel invasions." So you don't need to actually level? Can you see why that is a problem?

 

So "Can I kill inva fluff? Currently yes (easy), but after this change I dont think so (or it will be extremely hard)." you may be forced to level attack and

defense? :)

 

What if you didn't need 70 manu to make high end armor, just 40 manu and high charm. Can you see if the same system applied to other

skills it would make those skill levels totally meaningless?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like this idea.

 

However I think radu mentioned somewhere that he didn't want people with uber levels just pure owning everyone naked or something. So a correct balance of how more effective a/d will be is needed. All in all. I like. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why do you think this is about PK?

Queasy? There was a one sentence abt PK and i think it's related. Both a/d and attribs are important. Wise putting attribs makes a/d diffrence smaller.

Why should attributes should be more important than actual levels?

Thought I stated it already. I dont mind to increase attribs weight. I like as they are now.

You just said yourself "weak can beat stronger (just a bit, but still), no need 100/100 a/d to slain lenny and no need 120/120 a/d to do bethel invasions." So you don't need to actually level? Can you see why that is a problem?

You miss a sense. Anyway it will affect you as me. And no, you still need to level. Now you just dont need so heavy a/d to kill high lvl monsters. After this "small" change you will.

So "Can I kill inva fluff? Currently yes (easy), but after this change I dont think so (or it will be extremely hard)." you may be forced to level attack and

defense? ;)

Already answered. Think a bit abt invasions. How many ppl will go if they will be limited to fighting current creature? BORING. " I'm training gobs, yesterday on invasion i've killed 20 gobs, but comes skelly and killed me. Sound fun! " :)

What if you didn't need 70 manu to make high end armor, just 40 manu and high charm. Can you see if the same system applied to other

skills it would make those skill levels totally meaningless?

Not a good exaple. Read a subject pls. Its abt fighting, right? Btw, attribs almost not affect non-combat skills. All you need is high EMU(to carry more) and rationality (to get higher XP). Skills do rest. For fighting, attribs and wise use it making a lot good things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Queasy? There was a one sentence abt PK and i think it's related. Both a/d and attribs are important. Wise putting attribs makes a/d diffrence smaller.

Queasy<--what it the world do you mean by that or what are you referring too? :icon13:

Perhaps this word does not mean what you think it does?

However as it stands, attributes are far to important vs the actual skill.

 

Thought I stated it already. I dont mind to increase attribs weight. I like as they are now.

Yes, but why do you like the imbalance?

 

You miss a sense. Anyway it will affect you as me. And no, you still need to level. Now you just dont need so heavy a/d to kill high lvl monsters. After this "small" change you will.

I suspect you mean 'sentence'.

Why is that a problem, to kill a monster with high AD, you would actually require levels to kill it, instead of pp points, which can be inflated with negative

perks and nexus removal stones.

Already answered. Think a bit abt invasions. How many ppl will go if they will be limited to fighting current creature? BORING. " I'm training gobs, yesterday on invasion i've killed 20 gobs, but comes skelly and killed me. Sound fun! " :)

I don't think you understand weapons and armor will still have the same result as they do now.

 

Not a good exaple. Read a subject pls. Its abt fighting, right? Btw, attribs almost not affect non-combat skills. All you need is high EMU(to carry more) and rationality (to get higher XP). Skills do rest. For fighting, attribs and wise use it making a lot good things.

 

Its a perfectly valid example and I have "read a subject pls". Do you understand that if the same relation between skills and attributes were

applied to other skills, it would drastically alter the value of the skill level itself. Re-read my example.

 

But understand that fighting is unique that it requires other attributes to function, but no other skill does (summoning charm, is a bonus)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, but would not like to see pp placement's importance weakened too much, the pure vit build is an amusing foot note to pp strategy. That being said, I would like to be able to further some of my secondary skills, which I've taken about as far as I can with the amount of precious pp's I willing to invest, due to their importance. Imo, pp's should be important, just not what seems to be the deciding factor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ALL skills should get the greatest benifit from the level of those skills and not from attributes

 

Yet, none do:

- Damage cap limits attack bonus for low level farming (with 120 att, you really should 1-hit black bears with a bone)

- crits mitigate defense effectiveness

- High level mixers benefit more from nexus pp's to corner a market area, then their level and need vast ammounts of ingredients to keep their top position.

- Many skills have a "ok, anything above this level is useless except for ranking" area.

 

Come to think of it, a/d has probably the best advantages.

 

Whether they should matter more, with the 178 cap, in a year or two it won't matter much. Until then, I think they're balanced ok, tweaking them so that it's noticeable would spark a similar thread about the effectiveness of crits.

Just my 2c.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ALL skills should get the greatest benifit from the level of those skills and not from attributes

 

Yet, none do:

- Damage cap limits attack bonus for low level farming (with 120 att, you really should 1-hit black bears with a bone)

 

Well its a might cap at 48, but what does this have to do with conavar's statement?

"Yet. none do" :icon13: so summoning skill levels are not a primary determining factor in the success of a summons?

How is this 'none do'?

 

- crits mitigate defense effectiveness

True, its luck, its a chance to hit or bypass armor, but what does this have to do with conavar's statement?

 

- High level mixers benefit more from nexus pp's to corner a market area, then their level and need vast ammounts of ingredients to keep their top position.

What does nexus have to do with "all skills should get the greatest benefit from skills"? Nexus only allows you to make a particular item

but does nothing to make the chance of success better. Unlike dex\reaction in relation to Attack and Defense.

 

- Many skills have a "ok, anything above this level is useless except for ranking" area.

:) what does this have to do with conavar's statement?

 

Come to think of it, a/d has probably the best advantages.

Again, he said a skills levels should be the primary determining factor in a skills success.

I don't see where it became a skill comparison?

 

Whether they should matter more, with the 178 cap, in a year or two it won't matter much. Until then, I think they're balanced ok, tweaking them so that it's noticeable would spark a similar thread about the effectiveness of crits.

Just my 2c.

 

How did you arrive at "they should matter more" ? Do you mean actual levels, or the attributes Dexterity and Reaction?

What does the 178 soft cap have anything to do with this?

And the effect of criticals are pure luck, no were as certain as the result dexterity and reaction have on hit and dodge.

 

Really conavars statement is a total no brainer, The skills levels should determine the success of that skill.

So should other skills require attributes for success and failure?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wouldnt everything just stay the same?

attributes might count for less then, but a/d will count more, basicly balancing it to what it is right now?

 

edit: sure it might make training in a/d more important, but everyone trains that anyway (and buy their pp that way)

Edited by Infamous

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it reduces the need, but aslong as people get stronger from it they will buy them anyway, perhaps at cheaper prices then they are currently at if they count for less

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ALL skills should get the greatest benifit from the level of those skills and not from attributes

 

Yet, none do:

- Damage cap limits attack bonus for low level farming (with 120 att, you really should 1-hit black bears with a bone)

 

Well its a might cap at 48, but what does this have to do with conavar's statement?

"Yet. none do" :icon13: so summoning skill levels are not a primary determining factor in the success of a summons?

How is this 'none do'?

Hmm, summoning may actually be the exception, though an 104 summoner 4 charm and a 60 with 48, it'd be interesting to see who makes with the same ammount of ingredients the most creatures the fastest.

 

- crits mitigate defense effectiveness

True, its luck, its a chance to hit or bypass armor, but what does this have to do with conavar's statement?

I'll say this once and feel free to apply it to the rest.

Read his statement again, it doesn't say "chance of success" it says "greatest benefit". If he really means chance of success, then it's quite a void statement, as for mixing skills and harvesting attributes don't contribute to success rate at all.

 

Whether they should matter more, with the 178 cap, in a year or two it won't matter much. Until then, I think they're balanced ok, tweaking them so that it's noticeable would spark a similar thread about the effectiveness of crits.

Just my 2c.

 

How did you arrive at "they should matter more" ? Do you mean actual levels, or the attributes Dexterity and Reaction?

What does the 178 soft cap have anything to do with this?

And the effect of criticals are pure luck, no were as certain as the result dexterity and reaction have on hit and dodge.

 

I mean the levels. The cap has everything to do with it, cause once the top players have all reached it, it'll be all about attributes, no?

Secondly, if you make def/att weigh more in the roll, the lower level player will turn to high crit modifiers to try and defeat the higher level player, then whine they don't help enough.

 

Really conavars statement is a total no brainer, The skills levels should determine the success of that skill.

So should other skills require attributes for success and failure?

 

A/d is different and for obvious reasons. It's physical. Think office job vs military. However, should attributes help? Yes, but we have no wisdom attribute.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If all matters (mostly) on a/d then where is the tactics in charackter building? If everyone has the same hit/dodge (*comparing same levels of course..) fights are boring?

 

Training a/d increases OA thus increases the ammount of pps you can spend... Also, buying hydro bars is effort put into a charackter development.

About neg perks, EVERYONE can CHOOSE to take them, its not 'FREE' pickpoints. If you do not take a neg perk, you probably dont like the negative consequences of it, if it were free pps everyone would take the same perks no?

 

Making the pps less important for hit/dodge means the current pos. perks need to be revised too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It certainly depends on to the degree that a/d or attributes will have. But I see this as a bad idea.

 

Currently a/d is a "dice roll" Do you hit mob/playerx

Do you dodge playerx/mob

Is this a critical hit/mirror/bp hit

ect.

The attibutes then take over and : Yes/no it is a hit, you hit for X damage armor

Toughness absorbs y damage

Armor absorbs Z damage

repeat

 

 

If a/d magic etc skill level was the be all end all, then we just train skills, and ok, we can all lose neg perks, and we can all stop buying hydro, and we can all take 30 nexus woot.

 

Except, I hate to tell you this...

 

If you have played for 5 years, and you farm yeti full time your making decent gc's

If you have read all the books you need, and have bought all the armor/weps you need what the hell do you do with all these gc's building up in store?

 

Face it, even if attributes come down to 5%, those players that can afford it will still take advantage of that advantage, and we will be back where we started faster then you blink.

It wont change a dam thing

 

Lets not forget also, that the whole EL economy at the moment is based around hydrogenium

Why do you think new players are encouraged to start out making FE? Because each hydro bar takes loads of FE for the bars/swords etc.

Now you may think I am taking this thread of topic, but no. This is the underlying factor of el economy. This is why 0 nexus people can still mine coal/sulfur

 

SO imo, if attributes dont matter, then we will all be selling brs to npc and chatting in storage between no drop pk fights in kf.

 

If attributes only matter 1% of the current rate, the dollar players/hard workers will still seek that advantage and not a dam thing will change.

 

 

As for magic being closer tied to rationality this is important.

 

Do you want mages with 150 harm...........and 980 em, oh and 150 a/d level? At least now a mage is stuck with some disadvantages that cripple his ability to train a/d for 500k xp/hour,lower emu lower toughness and damage with melee weapons.

 

I vote No to this idea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×