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Dugur

Remove PP buying

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I quoted you, and you claim i say stuff i never did, i ask you to quote and you don't (of course, you can't, you can't quote stuff i never said).

 

[JuvenaL @ 6]: ah, infa, its like the argument of the uber sword

[JuvenaL @ 6]: i would like to see you win a 1vs1 fight with same gear with a pp buyer

[infamous @ 6]: it ends eventually, caps are at 48 for attributes and at 172 for skills. people trained hard to get to the caps

[JuvenaL @ 6]: its not linear, its overpowered, simple as that

[JuvenaL @ 6]: you know its overpowered

[JuvenaL @ 6]: game imbalance? people having to spending years to catch in power, etc

[JuvenaL @ 6]: newbies having increasingly hard time to catch up, etc

[JuvenaL @ 6]: if all people can use bronze sword, it could do 200 damage

[JuvenaL @ 6]: even without pp buying he would still beat you up

[JuvenaL @ 6]: wait a moment, "if the pp buyer is easily beated" is because they are not overpowered

[JuvenaL @ 6]: k, you win if you gang him, its not what i call "easily"

 

everything suggesting that PP buyers are overpowered and cant be beaten. even comparing them to a bronze sword doing 200dmg, or a spell that instant kills.

and still you say u didnt say they are overpowered? probably because you switched to the way getting the pp is imbalanced. cant win an arguement? switch your point.

this is only from the convo on channel 6, maybe ill take the time to go through your posts aswell.

 

[JuvenaL @ 6]: nah, if i dont like, i try to change the stuff i dont like

 

selfishness much? should be whats good for the game, not what you like and dont like

 

[JuvenaL @ 6]: kk, then never ever cry about kgxjeff and the other guys any more

 

i never cried about him, hes even a friend of me but we still fight sometimes, but saying that just proves to everyone that you just make up stuff to win an arguement.

 

[JuvenaL @ 6]: no, using like 20k gc in summoneds is not "easily"

 

its a lifetime of hard work, hell ill go harv now and see how fast i can get that.

 

Yes, only you can do that, the other guy can't.

it's an MMORPG Lorck, Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game, notice the word Multiplayer? ofcourse he can ask others for help, but then again you can too.

 

people with low levels can't really kill monster with high drops.

there are other means then just fighting you know? because higher levels trained so much they get rewarded with more drops, how can you not get this? why is it so hard for you to understand that the higher you get, the stronger you are, the more benefits you have?

if you are lower level ofcourse you are gonna have a hard time, thats just the way it is everywhere

all you are saying is the strong are strong because they train hard and work hard, someone who didnt put in as much work in leveling his a/d should be just as strong or get the same rewards.

 

Its a very simple concept:, the fact everyone can do something has nothing to do to if its balanced or "overpowered". I just can't believe that someone from such a country with such a tradition on education can't grasp a concept that simple, even when someone uses an analogy to explain it better.

 

roflmao that is funny, so if everyone can do it has nothing to do with it, so if we restrict pp buying to lets say 140 a/d that wouldnt be overpowered or imbalanced, good reasoning lorck, wtg. and then comment on my country/education? rofl

and the reason we dont get anything from you is because you use analogy thats not even relevant, come on, you are basicly famous in this game for making no sense. loads say that. you prove it all the time by comparing a pp buyer who does 10-40 damage per hit. (note the damage they do is still dependant on the weapon, pp buying doesnt make them 1-hit kill everything) to a sword that does 200 damage, or a spell that insta kills :wub:

 

Both should be important. But since this is a RPG, i would say the work the people put on their chars should matter more.

and what do people put in their char with pp buying? exactly lorck, work. so it should matter. glad you finally agree.

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Back to the topic at hand, pp buying allows new characters to quickly increase their attributes, which can make them competitive against older players with higher skill levels, but lower attributes. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
No, it doesn't. It seems you missed the topic completly. people with low levels can't really kill monster with high drops. The ones who usually get more strong are those who are already very strong. "Newbies" have a hard time to catch up, even more if the way to get pp's at high level is linear.

We're looking at this from opposite angles. It seems you're saying that high level players can get stronger buy using the wealth they get from high level drops to buy pp, thus getting even stronger. I had suggested that noobs can buy pp by buying items at the EL shop for $, selling those items for gc, and using the gc to buy hydro bars and nexus removal stones to buy pp. I probably should have explained that.

This is a good and valid argument. But i would not advice new players to spend in pp's right at the start. They would be best served buying ingredients for mixing skills (if they are traders) or good armor & essences if they are fighters/mages.

 

Its more worthwhile to buy pick points if you have 140 OA or so, at this point the "soft cap" kicked in and then you need weeks of hard training to get an overall. Bellow that overall, i would recommend to people to just invest in their skills, to get both higher skill and nice OA. But if you have 140 OA, i would not call you a "new player".

So it seems that pp buying can benefit both old and new players. Does that have an effect on whether we think pp buying should stay in the game?
Again, new players should try to build their skill. 1M of gc can do wonders to speed up training in certain skills, including attack & defense (if it is what you like). People who have already great overall is those who benefit the most.
As I've said in an earlier post, I don't have a problem with pp buying, but if the majority of players would benefit from getting rid of pp buying, then it should be done. I'm fine with the original idea of changing nexus removal to nexus relocation.
Yes, i think its in the majority of players interest. Of course, people who already have invested in bought pick points should not see their investment go to the garbage.

 

EDIT: Infa: you must be joking, really. I asked you to quote about me saying that people who bought pick points should have their pickpoints erased without reward and you post this? You must really be joking, dude

[JuvenaL @ 6]: nah, if i dont like, i try to change the stuff i dont like

 

selfishness much? should be whats good for the game, not what you like and dont like

Huh? Every opinion i make is because of selfishness now? I posted SEVERAL reasons why pick point buying is not good for the game. You posted NONE so far to counter it.
[JuvenaL @ 6]: no, using like 20k gc in summoneds is not "easily"

 

its a lifetime of hard work, hell ill go harv now and see how fast i can get that.

Normal harvesting will earn you around 4-5k per hour, so you will get it with 4 hours of work. o.O Yes, its "easy" to spend 4 hours of work harvesting, then you go to kf, kill a guy, you don't get even pk central, then comes a mage and pwns your chims.
there are other means then just fighting you know? because higher levels trained so much they get rewarded with more drops, how can you not get this? why is it so hard for you to understand that the higher you get, the stronger you are, the more benefits you have?
Yes, and it should be MORE DIFFICULT to get even more stronger, instead of easier.
so if we restrict pp buying to lets say 140 a/d that wouldnt be overpowered or imbalanced, good reasoning lorck, wtg. and then comment on my country/education? rofl
When i said the bold part? Honestly, dude, plz stop claiming that i said stuff i did not said. Well, about your education, you claimed that your country is one of the best of the world, etc. And again, its either malice or lack of understanding, since you have such a pr0 educational background i think its malice.
and the reason we dont get anything from you is because you use analogy thats not even relevant, come on, you are basicly famous in this game for making no sense. loads say that. you prove it all the time by comparing a pp buyer who does 10-40 damage per hit. (note the damage they do is still dependant on the weapon, pp buying doesnt make them 1-hit kill everything) to a sword that does 200 damage, or a spell that insta kills
I don't care about what people say about me. :wub: And the analogies are simple ones, easy to understand (even more for pr0s) and they express a simple concept: if everyone can do something, it doesn't mean its balanced or "overpowered". Indeed, it has nothing to do with it. Edited by Lorck

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you said so in the post before rofl, memory loss?

 

the fact everyone can do something has nothing to do to if its balanced or "overpowered"

 

that implies that it wouldnt matter if anyone can use it or not in something being overpowered.

so, wether or not only 140s could use it wouldnt make it imbalanced or overpowered since "the fact that everyone can do something has nothing to do with it being balanced or overpowered"

 

all i been doing is proving u wrong rofl, omg... u resort to examples like comparing pp buyers with swords and spells which has nothing to do with eachother and u think you are right cause of that :wub:

everyone can do it, a low lvl even said he bought 2 pp, he probably doesnt focus on maxing them all else he could have gotten more, proves there is nothing imbalanced about obtaining them, PP buyers can be beaten with quite easily, so they themselves arent imbalanced or overpowered. (just cause you think its not easy doesnt mean its hard, your just incapable of doing an easy task)

that proves all you said wrong, just cause you bring up a sword and spell doesnt mean you are right.

 

what a twisted mind..

here ill argue back at you using your own logic.

 

This is Chewbacca Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a EL player defending PP buying without having any bought PP myself, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation,

does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests

 

 

edit: btw you might not care what others say, but the fact alot of people consider you as not making sense in arguements, and mostly talking crap.. says alot about you and proves your not making any sense at all. ffs you are comparing a 200dmg sword with high crits like bronze sword with a pp buyer that does 10-20 times less damage and can be fought against (and win). dont you get there is no link to those 2 things at all? no matter if its an anology or not? analogies should say something about the topic you are discussing.

oh no, you think the way of getting those pp is imbalanced. so what exactly is the connection between a 200dmg sword and spending gc to buy a pp?

 

an analogy for you with yours as example

"imagine all swords doing 1 dmg, doesnt make it uber weak cause everyone can use it, no reason for pp buying to be removed"

or "a spell that does 1 dmg, doesnt make it weak cause everyone can use it, thats why pp obtaining and the pp buyers themselves arent imbalanced or overpowered"

Edited by Infamous

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you said so in the post before rofl, memory loss?

 

the fact everyone can do something has nothing to do to if its balanced or "overpowered"

 

that implies that it wouldnt matter if anyone can use it or not in something being overpowered.

so, wether or not only 140s could use it wouldnt make it imbalanced or overpowered since "the fact that everyone can do something has nothing to do with it being balanced or overpowered"

If i say that something is wrong, it doesn't mean the extreme opposite of it is right.
all i been doing is proving u wrong rofl, omg... u resort to examples like comparing pp buyers with swords and spells which has nothing to do with eachother and u think you are right cause of that :wub:
It has to do with each other, i explained many times WHY they have to do with each other, despite your superb education it seems you still fail to understand (as i said above, its a sign of malice).
everyone can do it, a low lvl even said he bought 2 pp, he probably doesnt focus on maxing them all else he could have gotten more, proves there is nothing imbalanced about obtaining them, PP buyers can be beaten with quite easily, so they themselves arent imbalanced or overpowered. (just cause you think its not easy doesnt mean its hard, your just incapable of doing an easy task)

that proves all you said wrong, just cause you bring up a sword and spell doesnt mean you are right.

Well, i tried to do an analogy with something that is overpowered, blatantly overpowered... just to make no doubt it is overpowered. Then i tried to see if your logic apply, the logic being "if something is overpowered it doesn't matter, because everyone can do it". Of course it fails. It fails for the extreme case of an instakill spell, it fails for the case of buying pps.

 

The "chewbacca defense" is to present arguments either valid or invalid, unrelated to the topic, just to hide the "true" arguments on the spam generate. Please note that the "eternal endless" endgame, linear progression at high levels, making low level players have a hard time to catch up, etc, the real arguments are not addressed, just some fake ones, some that people did not even said, you invented them up.

edit: btw you might not care what others say, but the fact alot of people consider you as not making sense in arguements, and mostly talking crap.. says alot about you and proves your not making any sense at all.
An ad hominem argument has the basic form:

Person 1 makes claim X
There is something objectionable about Person 1
Therefore claim X is false

It doesn't address the topic. Its just say that i am wrong because its me who are saying it.

ffs you are comparing a 200dmg sword with high crits like bronze sword with a pp buyer that does 10-20 times less damage and can be fought against (and win). dont you get there is no link to those 2 things at all? no matter if its an anology or not? analogies should say something about the topic you are discussing.
Analogies are helpful to enlight a topic. And i never said a sword which deals 100 damage is as overpowered as someone who bought 40 pps. I say both are overpowered, and the fact that "everyone can use it" does not make either less overpowered by itself.
oh no, you think the way of getting those pp is imbalanced. so what exactly is the connection between a 200dmg sword and spending gc to buy a pp?

 

an analogy for you with yours as example

"imagine all swords doing 1 dmg, doesnt make it uber weak cause everyone can use it, no reason for pp buying to be removed"

or "a spell that does 1 dmg, doesnt make it weak cause everyone can use it, thats why pp obtaining and the pp buyers themselves arent imbalanced or overpowered"

Ad hominem attack again. Please answer on the topic, on the many things WHY the pick point procedure is harmful to the game. And while you are at it, you can also state WHY it is good for the game. To say "omg Lorck, nobody likes you, so your analogies are false" does not address either. And yes, i know nobody likes me, do i care? No. :wub:

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no lorck, im done argueing with you, its pointless.. you keep changing the reason why you want it changed, back your arguements up with nonsense examples etc. etc.

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no lorck, im done argueing with you, its pointless.. you keep changing the reason why you want it changed, back your arguements up with nonsense examples etc. etc.
There is many reasons i think it should be changed for the benefit of the game, i just don't state them all the time (but you can read above, they are summarized nicely). Btw, if my arguments are "backed up with nonsense" please say where exactly is non-sense and show where they break. And for the third time, in a few minutes, the fact i am defending an argument, has nothing to do with the argument itself.

 

EDIT: And one more thing. You quoted me above totally out of the context on ch6. Of course it doesn't make any sense, since its totally out of the context. Next time, include the context where the stuff is inserted to prove that something "does not make sense".

Edited by Lorck

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omfg tl;dr. although I did read up untill zami's idea, but that would mean that we would have to level manufacture to use weapons/armors? :/

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no lorck, im done argueing with you, its pointless.. you keep changing the reason why you want it changed, back your arguements up with nonsense examples etc. etc.

Isn't it obvious? He is simply working on his Forum ranking. He is up to gargoyle now. Too bad most of his posts are silly.

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no lorck, im done argueing with you, its pointless.. you keep changing the reason why you want it changed, back your arguements up with nonsense examples etc. etc.

Isn't it obvious? He is simply working on his Forum ranking. He is up to gargoyle now. Too bad most of his posts are silly.

Btw, what is the next level after gargoyle? Edited by Lorck

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My main concern about this, is the newbies who hear about PP buying, after they just spent 5 hours killing wolves for their p/c.

 

Its ridiculous, and everyone here knows it. Theres just a certain few here, who dont think about that, only about their char - here and now, WITH their bought pp's that they want to keep. :)

 

It's an obvious exploitation, that needs to be solved.

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My main concern about this, is the newbies who hear about PP buying, after they just spent 5 hours killing wolves for their p/c.

Its ridiculous, and everyone here knows it.

You didn't actually state a problem.

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My main concern about this, is the newbies who hear about PP buying, after they just spent 5 hours killing wolves for their p/c.

Its ridiculous, and everyone here knows it.

You didn't actually state a problem.

It's an obvious exploitation, that needs to be solved.

:)

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Once removable nexii were introduced, I came up with the suggestion but it was just ignored.

 

My idea was very simple (albeit requiring slightly more disk space, that's why Entropy is gonna hate it anyway).

Just introduce 2 variables for each nexus, lets take an example with human nexus. You have two variables, human nexus from wraith (H1) and human nexus total (H), including the advances with hydrogen bars.

 

So if you have a fresh char, you obviously have H = 0, H1 = 0.

If you earn some pickpoints and take nexus, your both values grow, H = 3, H1 = 3 lets say.

If you save for some hydro bars and buy human nexus, your nexus grows, but H1 doesn't, H = 4, H1 = 3, for instance.

 

So once you use a removal stone, both values are decreased, and you get 1 pickpoint. H = 3, H1 = 2 in our case.

But you can't use removal stones if your H1 = 0, i.e. no taken nexii, only bought ones.

 

So you cannot buy pickpoints any longer.

 

I play very rarely nowadays (logged in yesterday after a few months), so it is maybe not that important for me though, but if outstanding game issues like this are fixed, I think some old players may come back or at least appear more often

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I think some old players may come back or at least appear more often

 

old players who quit used pp buying aswell, Ambro, siarato, toomass, matess for example

other old players wouldnt know about pp buying because they quit before pp buying was introduced, besides was there ever one who quit cause of pp buying?

 

think about the millions people spended to get a few pp, they would quit cause all theh ard work was for nothing, making the small playerbase even smaller. not to mention the pk community that gets smaller and then we get topics again saying pk is dead

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Alot of people have stated in their opinion why removing them would be good for the game long term, but no ones has really giving any opinions about how they think "for the game long term " it would be good left in.

 

Has anyone got any good reasons why it should be left in ?

 

 

 

 

 

note: Just curious, doesnt bother me if they kept in or removed tbh

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Once removable nexii were introduced, I came up with the suggestion but it was just ignored.

 

My idea was very simple (albeit requiring slightly more disk space, that's why Entropy is gonna hate it anyway).

Just introduce 2 variables for each nexus, lets take an example with human nexus. You have two variables, human nexus from wraith (H1) and human nexus total (H), including the advances with hydrogen bars.

 

So if you have a fresh char, you obviously have H = 0, H1 = 0.

If you earn some pickpoints and take nexus, your both values grow, H = 3, H1 = 3 lets say.

If you save for some hydro bars and buy human nexus, your nexus grows, but H1 doesn't, H = 4, H1 = 3, for instance.

 

So once you use a removal stone, both values are decreased, and you get 1 pickpoint. H = 3, H1 = 2 in our case.

But you can't use removal stones if your H1 = 0, i.e. no taken nexii, only bought ones.

 

So you cannot buy pickpoints any longer.

Ya i actually remember when you made this suggestion.

It's a good one ^^

 

There was also a suggestion by someone about 2 NPC's, one that sells nexus, one that removes them, and you pick which one you want to be able to use, and then you can only use that one, and the only way to change which NPC u can use is with reset.

Edited by Korrode

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other old players wouldnt know about pp buying because they quit before pp buying was introduced, besides was there ever one who quit cause of pp buying?
Nienora, Wexy
think about the millions people spended to get a few pp, they would quit cause all theh ard work was for nothing,
Don't invent stuff up, nobody suggested the pps should be removed without compensation. Why would the quit if their hard work would not be erased? And there are ways to get the stuff balanced without removing the pp buying thing completly.
making the small playerbase even smaller. not to mention the pk community that gets smaller and then we get topics again saying pk is dead
If it gets unrealistic for newbies to catch the pr0s, they would not try to catch. And pk always needs "new blood", because the oldbies would stop playing sooner or later (nobody plays forever). Just read Korrode's estimative of "completing" the endgame, it takes around 8-10 years o.O, a bit long no? Edited by Lorck

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My main concern about this, is the newbies who hear about PP buying, after they just spent 5 hours killing wolves for their p/c.

Its ridiculous, and everyone here knows it.

You didn't actually state a problem.

It's an obvious exploitation, that needs to be solved.

:)

If it's so obvious, why don't you explain it?

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My main concern about this, is the newbies who hear about PP buying, after they just spent 5 hours killing wolves for their p/c.

Its ridiculous, and everyone here knows it.

You didn't actually state a problem.

It's an obvious exploitation, that needs to be solved.

:)

If it's so obvious, why don't you explain it?

Well, there's many obvious reasons, but people being "way too strong" is a good enough one... hmm now where was that first said again? oh yeah, right here:

http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.p...st&p=314934

 

Might wanna read the other posts in that thread showing just how against pickpoints being buyable most people were when they were actually thinking about game balance, unskewed by the fact it's already been implemented for a while.

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lol, in my eyes its an exploitation, because you cant just go to an npc and say "I'd like this many PPs for X amount of gc"

You have to get a nexus first, which makes it look like it wasn't meant to happen. See?

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Well, there's many obvious reasons, but people being "way too strong" is a good enough one... hmm now where was that first said again? oh yeah, right here:

http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.p...st&p=314934

 

Might wanna read the other posts in that thread showing just how against pickpoints being buyable most people were when they were actually thinking about game balance, unskewed by the fact it's already been implemented for a while.

Radu said that buying nexus was just for nexus, not pp. Later we got nexus removal stones, which enable pp buying. Either Radu didn't realize that would happen, or, more likely, he did realize it but didn't care. He didn't remove nexus removal stones after players started buying pp, so he must not think it's too big of a problem. He hasn't said anything in this thread, yet.

This is all just talk, anyway. We have to wait and see what Radu does, if anything.

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Radu said that buying nexus was just for nexus, not pp. Later we got nexus removal stones, which enable pp buying. Either Radu didn't realize that would happen, or, more likely, he did realize it but didn't care. He didn't remove nexus removal stones after players started buying pp, so he must not think it's too big of a problem. He hasn't said anything in this thread, yet.

This is all just talk, anyway. We have to wait and see what Radu does, if anything.

Meanwhile, way back on page two or three, I posted this Post #39 of this thread, I suggested a way of removing pickpoint buying without removing the ability to move nexus around. It seems some people would prefer to make more people reset their characters by removing nexus removal stones than let them have a means to do it.

 

Of course, I don't know if action should even be taken about pickpoint buying at all. I was just stating a good action to take if someone did want to take action.

 

And as for what someone said about newbs wanting to buy pickpoints, yes, that whole notion is quite funny. At their level, they could Earn 5-20 pickpoints before they manage to Buy 1 pickpoint. Of course, the definition of newb may be confused here. Some of you say "newb" when you mean "noob". My guild deals with newbs. I know the difference.

 

(goes off to read the link that Korrode provided)

Heh. Interesting. Hey, Korrode, do you think you can find the thread for adding nexus removal stones to the game?

Edited by nathanstenzel

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korrode,radu said that before attributes were caped at 48.

pp buying is not doing any damage to the game itself.its rly not like that that u cant kill or beat some1 who bought pps.

yust cuz some ppl cant,or dont want to put hard work,or $,to buy pps doesnt mean it should be removed.

And lolol@this topic is started by 1 mage,i mean all he do is:come ivni,harm,d/t...but ye,we got used to those ppl who dont no shit but cry,like Juvenal(lorck),i mean wtf he dont even pk,or mixers,harvesters posting to improve combat system,pk.

Edited by adi

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