Bronze sword adjustments

[MasterZen]

So making the system more like when PK was highly active even without a ND PK map will reduce PK?

 

That's some pr0 logic you've got there.

 

Then vote for remove all items and make iron plate the highest armor again, then we can talk bout old times..

[SenZon]

More mixers talking about pk i see :\

[Entropy]

My argument would usually be that training combat should give the best combat advantages, but fair enough.

 

Well, it does. Think of a bronze sword as a booster. It's expensive, and can't use it a lot. At the end of the day, the one who spent 12 hours training combat will still be a better fighter.

[Norm]

More mixers talking about pk i see :\

 

 

As always. You have people who run thru kf dodgeing a fight who are now experts in pk. :/

[Lorck]

My argument would usually be that training combat should give the best combat advantages, but fair enough.

 

Well, it does. Think of a bronze sword as a booster. It's expensive, and can't use it a lot. At the end of the day, the one who spent 12 hours training combat will still be a better fighter.

After some time training 12 hours per day, you end up being a lot more effective using the bronze sword. Its like the other thread about Artic chims, you can use your chims, AND bronze sword, AND whatever pleases you, its your choice. Training will make you have a better char for the purpose of pk in the end of the day.

 

And finally, coming back to the original topic, i recently did tests with bronze sword, and i agree its too much overpowered, it should get a bit lowered.

 

EDIT:Oh, and bronze is a way to get gc out of economy. "But omfg and the ebul gc buyers from black market?" The gc came from inside game? Of course the mixer should have a say about this, they play the game too, and whatever affects the economy, affect them too. And i am getting tired of "rofl, mixers should not say stuff about pk".

Edited September 14, 2009 by Lorck

[Dilly]

More mixers talking about pk i see :\

 

Who determined the bronze sword is to ONLY be used in PK?

 

Just because it relates to you doesn't mean it can't concern others as well. And that doesn't only go for this thread, it goes for many topics in which this same lame comment has been made, not only by you but by others as well.

 

Agreed with Lorck: enough with that. And please feel free to comment on 'mixer' related topics, you might just shed a light on things that us softy buttsitters are too blinded for to see.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Dilly

[Entropy]

After some time training 12 hours per day, you end up being a lot more effective using the bronze sword. Its like the other thread about Artic chims, you can use your chims, AND bronze sword, AND whatever pleases you, its your choice. Training will make you have a better char for the purpose of pk in the end of the day.

I am afraid you don't understand. How much are you going to use the bronze sword? What do you get after it breaks?

[Lorck]

I am afraid you don't understand. How much are you going to use the bronze sword? What do you get after it breaks?

I am not going to use it much because i am planing to use summons to do the dirty work. And of course, after it breaks people would just equip another bronze sword, if they have the gc to spare, else they would have to resort to other weapons.

[Norm]

More mixers talking about pk i see :\

 

Who determined the bronze sword is to ONLY be used in PK?

 

Just because it relates to you doesn't mean it can't concern others as well. And that doesn't only go for this thread, it goes for many topics in which this same lame comment has been made, not only by you but by others as well.

 

Agreed with Lorck: enough with that. And please feel free to comment on 'mixer' related topics, you might just shed a light on things that us softy buttsitters are too blinded for to see.

 

 

I agree, but if your going to bring up pk (and bitch about pke'ers) I would prefer the poster has some idea what they are talking about, not just whine and moan. I appreciate any logical input, regardless who it is from. If you check the post, you will see it was just another mixer crying, and imo, was not meant to put forth any real improvement. It is no different than fighters saying that recent changes in harving are great and we need more. If anyone, from any skill, has am idea that will truely improve the situation, please speak up, but to me, some are just against anything fighters want. Just my opinion tho...

[SenZon]

Exactly what norm said.

[korrode]

Who determined the bronze sword is to ONLY be used in PK?

Well lets just use the proposed PvP damage modifier system to achieve all future equipment stats changes... as it would appear non-PK'ers think everything's perfect as it is on the non-PK side of things.

That way it has 0 effect on non-PK'ers, and that way we'll see just how many 'mixers' there are who just post on these threads out of some kind of personal grudge against PK'ers, and not because they are legitimately and for considered reason against the PK'ers suggestions.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Korrode

[MasterZen]

Being a mixer or not being a mixer, it still is a fact that if ya keep on changing stats on a certain item, it will make the gap between a 100 a/d pk'er and a 120 a/d pk'er bigger.

 

All the pk'ers i see talkin on this topic are those that are 120 a/d or above and when someone of a lower a/d lvl, het get bitched about cause he won the fight with a bronze sword, so yes, bronze sword has too big of stats and makes fights unfair, but it does give lower a/d the chance to win a fight how unfair it may be..

 

And if u feel the urge to whine bout the fact that im dealing with a topic of the GREAT pk'ers in the game, live with it..

 

If u think, changing stats on the drag armour and the bronze sword doesn't change a thing and lower a/d will still have a decent shot at winning a pk fight then tell me, so i can shut up..

 

As long as i don't read about advantages that lower a/d fighters will have, i will keep on messing with these topics..

[Lorck]

Being a mixer or not being a mixer, it still is a fact that if ya keep on changing stats on a certain item, it will make the gap between a 100 a/d pk'er and a 120 a/d pk'er bigger.

I don't think it makes the gap bigger, since being all stats equal, a more experienced fighter would usually have more gold in his/her storage. The pool has something to do with pk being more or less expensive, and you know, characters with low levels usually don't make as much money as a more experienced one. And i think it should be this way, btw, you know, someone worked on that stats.

All the pk'ers i see talkin on this topic are those that are 120 a/d or above and when someone of a lower a/d lvl, het get bitched about cause he won the fight with a bronze sword

My attack and defense is above 120, and while i respect the opinion of "mixers", i see no point in bashing a fighter's opinion just because its from a fighter, more or less in the same way i see no point bashing a harvester opinion just because he is a harvester.

so yes, bronze sword has too big of stats and makes fights unfair, but it does give lower a/d the chance to win a fight how unfair it may be..

It makes it highly luck dependent, more dependent on luck, less on strategy, and its not only in low vs high levels, its also in low vs low and high vs high.

If u think, changing stats on the drag armour and the bronze sword doesn't change a thing and lower a/d will still have a decent shot at winning a pk fight then tell me, so i can shut up..

 

As long as i don't read about advantages that lower a/d fighters will have, i will keep on messing with these topics..

Again, someone worked on those stats, it may not even be the person which is holding the char right now, btw. A top level summoner can summon a dragon much easier than me. If you tell me that i should have a "decent shot" at summoning a dragon at my levels, you must be joking. Edited September 15, 2009 by Lorck

[korrode]

All the pk'ers i see talkin on this topic are those that are 120 a/d or above and when someone of a lower a/d lvl, het get bitched about cause he won the fight with a bronze sword, so yes, bronze sword has too big of stats and makes fights unfair, but it does give lower a/d the chance to win a fight how unfair it may be..

You do realise that i'm not top 10 a/d?

I am in the 60's ranks in a/d. When i goto KF, there are MANY opponents stronger than me, and many of them don't just have higher levels, they have bought pickpoints and endless supplies of gc, via RL$, to be ever obtaining and replacing more bronze swords, dragon armors and orange spam stuff than you can poke a stick at.

 

When i returned from my break from EL a few months back, i bought me a bunch of gc and started PK'ing in dragon armor with bronze swords. In my first 7 days back i earned on average 1 PK point a day.

I've got multiple kills of top 20 chars on my counters. I don't contribute those kills to "pr0ness", i contribute them to RL$ and overly expensive, over-powered weapons, that it took me no brain power at all to use effectively.

 

See, i actually fit the description of the type of player you are claiming to be defending, not the type of player you think you are defending against.

 

Being a mixer or not being a mixer, it still is a fact that if ya keep on changing stats on a certain item, it will make the gap between a 100 a/d pk'er and a 120 a/d pk'er bigger.

 

...

 

If u think, changing stats on the drag armour and the bronze sword doesn't change a thing and lower a/d will still have a decent shot at winning a pk fight then tell me, so i can shut up..

 

As long as i don't read about advantages that lower a/d fighters will have, i will keep on messing with these topics..

 

Ok i will explain it:

 

Eternal Lands provides a beautifully balanced set of weapons; The Great Swords.

They are a well designed Accuracy VS Damage VS Defense VS Luck set of weapons, which are affordable and lead to fights where levels, strategy, tactics, resources and luck can play fair and even roles.

The game also provides a nice set of medallions to further add to this system (although they are not as perfectly balanced; the moon medallion needs the +4 accuracy removed, then it will no longer be OP vs the other cheaper medallions and the Sun med would come into play).

Additionally, there's also choices to be made with armors; some providing slightly better bonuses but coming with some accuracy, defense and/or elemental negs.

 

The problems is that within the current system, the Dragon Armors (which are the standard in competitive PK) have no negs and provide such an armor bonus that even when it's 2 opponents capable of striking each other with the most damaging/lowest accuracy of the great swords, they do not inflict enough damage to make for exciting PK fights, and the lower damage/higher accuracy weapons, that lower level players should be able to use with at least a degree of success against higher level ones, in many cases, actually do no damage at all (with the exception of critical-damage rolls, which in the scheme of things are rare).

 

So we have these reasonably priced, wonderfully balanced sets of equipment, that different strengths of players can utilise in different ways to kill different strengths of opponents, basically going to complete waste (in regards to PvP) because there's just a few much more powerful and much more expensive items that enough people are using in PK to make PK'ing without said overly expensive / powerful items suicide.

A Key point to be noted here is COST: if you can't afford to PK permanently with bronze swords that cost 20kgc a piece and break like paper cups, and dragon armor sets that cost hundreds of thousands of gc to replace when broken, then PK against an equivalent strength character that is using said equipment is suicide.

This caters to the whims of a niche of players, rather than the majority.

 

(The only successful tactics i've seen for a player to use against a bronze sword user without using bronze sword themselves are also very costly).

 

Now, remember the 5 elements to a fight i mentioned earlier:

"levels, strategy, tactics, resources and luck"

 

The overly costly and powerful items (drag armor/bronze sword/orange spam) to utilise effectively do not require anywhere near even amounts of the above from a player.

Of those 5 elements, only 2 are heavily in play: resources and luck. I

n play to a lesser degree (but certainly still a good degree) is: levels (attribs are included in this), and then finally making up much smaller factors to the fight outcome is: strategy and tactics.

 

If it was NCa that had been made no drop, and not KF, strategy and tactics being beneficial things would have been almost completely written out of EL PK. At least with the multi-combat map coordinating with others is important, but there's still little to no strategy and tactics in regards to equipment choice, mostly it's just credit cards and luck.

The key point to be noted here is BALANCE: The impact of the factors contributing to the outcome of fights needs to be shifted back towards being more in favour of those who are actually good at the game and no longer be largely towards those with the most resources to throw around. I'm not saying luck and resources should count for nothing, just that currently they count for almost everything.

Once again; This caters to the whims of a niche of players.

 

So, in conclusion, if the changes we suggest are implemented, if you are a good PK'er you will still have those opportunities to kill stronger players, in fact, you may even have more of them than you do now, and it wont cost you an arm and a leg doing it.

[Ateh]

change it , and make me teh G0d

[bigkav]

All the pk'ers i see talkin on this topic are those that are 120 a/d or above and when someone of a lower a/d lvl, het get bitched about cause he won the fight with a bronze sword, so yes, bronze sword has too big of stats and makes fights unfair, but it does give lower a/d the chance to win a fight how unfair it may be..

You do realise that i'm not top 10 a/d?

I am in the 60's ranks in a/d. When i goto KF, there are MANY opponents stronger than me, and many of them don't just have higher levels, they have bought pickpoints and endless supplies of gc, via RL$, to be ever obtaining and replacing more bronze swords, dragon armors and orange spam stuff than you can poke a stick at.

 

When i returned from my break from EL a few months back, i bought me a bunch of gc and started PK'ing in dragon armor with bronze swords. In my first 7 days back i earned on average 1 PK point a day.

I've got multiple kills of top 20 chars on my counters. I don't contribute those kills to "pr0ness", i contribute them to RL$ and overly expensive, over-powered weapons, that it took me no brain power at all to use effectively.

 

See, i actually fit the description of the type of player you are claiming to be defending, not the type of player you think you are defending against.

 

Being a mixer or not being a mixer, it still is a fact that if ya keep on changing stats on a certain item, it will make the gap between a 100 a/d pk'er and a 120 a/d pk'er bigger.

 

...

 

If u think, changing stats on the drag armour and the bronze sword doesn't change a thing and lower a/d will still have a decent shot at winning a pk fight then tell me, so i can shut up..

 

As long as i don't read about advantages that lower a/d fighters will have, i will keep on messing with these topics..

 

Ok i will explain it:

 

Eternal Lands provides a beautifully balanced set of weapons; The Great Swords.

They are a well designed Accuracy VS Damage VS Defense VS Luck set of weapons, which are affordable and lead to fights where levels, strategy, tactics, resources and luck can play fair and even roles.

The game also provides a nice set of medallions to further add to this system (although they are not as perfectly balanced; the moon medallion needs the +4 accuracy removed, then it will no longer be OP vs the other cheaper medallions and the Sun med would come into play).

Additionally, there's also choices to be made with armors; some providing slightly better bonuses but coming with some accuracy, defense and/or elemental negs.

 

The problems is that within the current system, the Dragon Armors (which are the standard in competitive PK) have no negs and provide such an armor bonus that even when it's 2 opponents capable of striking each other with the most damaging/lowest accuracy of the great swords, they do not inflict enough damage to make for exciting PK fights, and the lower damage/higher accuracy weapons, that lower level players should be able to use with at least a degree of success against higher level ones, in many cases, actually do no damage at all (with the exception of critical-damage rolls, which in the scheme of things are rare).

 

So we have these reasonably priced, wonderfully balanced sets of equipment, that different strengths of players can utilise in different ways to kill different strengths of opponents, basically going to complete waste (in regards to PvP) because there's just a few much more powerful and much more expensive items that enough people are using in PK to make PK'ing without said overly expensive / powerful items suicide.

A Key point to be noted here is COST: if you can't afford to PK permanently with bronze swords that cost 20kgc a piece and break like paper cups, and dragon armor sets that cost hundreds of thousands of gc to replace when broken, then PK against an equivalent strength character that is using said equipment is suicide.

This caters to the whims of a niche of players, rather than the majority.

 

(The only successful tactics i've seen for a player to use against a bronze sword user without using bronze sword themselves are also very costly).

 

Now, remember the 5 elements to a fight i mentioned earlier:

"levels, strategy, tactics, resources and luck"

 

The overly costly and powerful items (drag armor/bronze sword/orange spam) to utilise effectively do not require anywhere near even amounts of the above from a player.

Of those 5 elements, only 2 are heavily in play: resources and luck. I

n play to a lesser degree (but certainly still a good degree) is: levels (attribs are included in this), and then finally making up much smaller factors to the fight outcome is: strategy and tactics.

 

If it was NCa that had been made no drop, and not KF, strategy and tactics being beneficial things would have been almost completely written out of EL PK. At least with the multi-combat map coordinating with others is important, but there's still little to no strategy and tactics in regards to equipment choice, mostly it's just credit cards and luck.

The key point to be noted here is BALANCE: The impact of the factors contributing to the outcome of fights needs to be shifted back towards being more in favour of those who are actually good at the game and no longer be largely towards those with the most resources to throw around. I'm not saying luck and resources should count for nothing, just that currently they count for almost everything.

Once again; This caters to the whims of a niche of players.

 

So, in conclusion, if the changes we suggest are implemented, if you are a good PK'er you will still have those opportunities to kill stronger players, in fact, you may even have more of them than you do now, and it wont cost you an arm and a leg doing it.

 

I do remember on my latest character, around high 90s a/d buying a dragon set and several bronze swords to compete. There was about 6 opponents in KF, all with higher a/d then mine and I killed 5 of those 6 within a few seconds. 4 of those 6 were using a thermal serpent or dragon armor. The only survivor was yaserhameed, because I couldn't hit him, nor did I have summon stones to "spam" at him. Jigsaw was there, and can confirm this. (PK Central can also). As exhilarating as that was for me, I shouldn't have been able to take out 5 people within a few seconds with hardly any strategy at all.

Using a great sword in the current system, I would never have achieved that outcome.

 

I agree I did enjoy PK much more, before the dragon armors. (they weren't such a problem untill we capped attributes, and then left the dragon armors un-altered.)

 

I did do some numerous FF's with similar leveled players in KF, and those FF's to me were more fun then the actual drag armor bronze sword biz. I changed capes, we used great swords, we used strategy. I changed actively between the uni/star/moon medallions, and between the cutlass, jagged saber and orc slayer. The point I see which Korrode is trying to make, is to weigh combination's of sorts. The kind of PKers I see nowadays, don't tend to even bother with weapon/cape/med changing. I'll list here, what 9/10 of them do.

 

Player X: Source of GC: buys GCs for $. Armor Set Up: Ice Dragon Set. RDHoLAM. Tit Shield. Weapon: Bronze sword. (constantly has them). This person goes into kf, same equipment, everytime I've ever seen them in a PK map. they summon 100's of tigers/bears on their opponents. they "bought" their levels.

Now, going in with the best gear possible, spamming summoning stones and using endless supply of bronze swords.

 

Now tell me, what elements out of the 5 Korrode listed, do you think he is using?

 

How would someone retaliate with a strategy to help fight against these types of players?

 

You can't. No medallion changing, weapon switches is going to help you out the slightest. Within saying that, Dragon Armor and Bronze sword has become, the PK essential. Those who can afford it, PK regularly. Now it's a standard that is usually a must. With the damage the bronze sword currently offers, with the crit to hit and crit to dmg, makes levels irrelevant.

 

 

Edit: And to add a little bit to that, I believe that the armor/medallions/weapons scheme in EL was absolutely and utterly perfect, before the dragon armors and bronze swords. It was and hopefully won't be the best era of EL for me. I hope to see changes, that will make the variety of weapons, medallions and armors available, useful and actively used in PK.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Luigi

[MasterZen]

Let me clarify that i never stated that pk is good as it is now..

 

I'm just saying (not defending nor attacking either), that changes that are being made is not really helping the lower a/d people in the world of pk.

 

Korrode is telling me differently..

 

I never used a bronze sword in pk, i only used 1 item in pk ever, which is a SOM (another greatly appreciated weapon by u guys *sarcasm*)..

I probably will never be good in pk (too far behindin a/d), cause i never liked a/d training all day long, still don't, but im making longer hours in a/d training lately and i don't wanna have the feeling, that when i finally reach a certain goal (let's say 100/110) that my shots at even competing a LITTLE bit in pk is still at it's minimum..

 

It already is at it's minimum now, so why would i train as much as i do now, when eventually when im at a point (which i feel is decent competitive) i discover that with all the changes that are made, i still am useless when it comes to giving a decent fight..

 

Well i made clear my point, and already stated that i also think the bronze sword is a weapon that should be decreased a lot..

[Lorck]

Let me clarify that i never stated that pk is good as it is now..

 

I'm just saying (not defending nor attacking either), that changes that are being made is not really helping the lower a/d people in the world of pk.

 

Korrode is telling me differently..

 

I never used a bronze sword in pk, i only used 1 item in pk ever, which is a SOM (another greatly appreciated weapon by u guys *sarcasm*)..

I probably will never be good in pk (too far behindin a/d), cause i never liked a/d training all day long, still don't, but im making longer hours in a/d training lately and i don't wanna have the feeling, that when i finally reach a certain goal (let's say 100/110) that my shots at even competing a LITTLE bit in pk is still at it's minimum..

 

It already is at it's minimum now, so why would i train as much as i do now, when eventually when im at a point (which i feel is decent competitive) i discover that with all the changes that are made, i still am useless when it comes to giving a decent fight..

 

Well i made clear my point, and already stated that i also think the bronze sword is a weapon that should be decreased a lot..

If you do a decent build, you should be able to fight people with similar levels. And who do you think that uses bronze swords very often? The guys who have already a great storage and probably good a/d (and probably bought their chars, and probably bought their gold too).

 

And still, the summoning/mixing analogy is still valid. Why someone on low 30's of crafting can't have a decent chance of making a COL, but a guy with 110 of a/d should have a decent chance of pk someone with 150/150?

 

EDIT: If the pk was cheaper, then more people at your levels could afford to pk, then you would be competitive against them. With skyrocketed prices of armor and weapons, the "small" guy have to stay on silver cave an eternity to even have a small chance of remaining alive on pk.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Lorck

[korrode]

As much as i hate to say it, Lorck makes good points

[Entropy]

And still, the summoning/mixing analogy is still valid. Why someone on low 30's of crafting can't have a decent chance of making a COL, but a guy with 110 of a/d should have a decent chance of pk someone with 150/150?

 

Your analogy is wrong, a 30 lev crafter has a decent chance to make a COL if he uses saving stones

[korrode]

lol so after he's poofed 150kgc worth of saving stones to make a 60kgc CoL...

[Dilly]

And still, the summoning/mixing analogy is still valid. Why someone on low 30's of crafting can't have a decent chance of making a COL, but a guy with 110 of a/d should have a decent chance of pk someone with 150/150?

 

Your analogy is wrong, a 30 lev crafter has a decent chance to make a COL if he uses saving stones

 

I'm fairly certain it would require several saving stones, i.e. a fortune to prevent crit failing the actual ingreds for the col. After crit failing twice (=poofing 2 saving stones) it's no longer worth trying. I've made this 'mistake' in manu, crit failed and therefore recycled several pieces of steel armor and that was when I was around the recommended level for making these items already. So yes, the chance is decent, but only if funds are unlimited, so how realistic is that?

[conavar]

I do remember on my latest character, around high 90s a/d buying a dragon set and several bronze swords to compete. There was about 6 opponents in KF, all with higher a/d then mine and I killed 5 of those 6 within a few seconds. 4 of those 6 were using a thermal serpent or dragon armor.

 

Its a double edged sword tbh, the bronze sword is a great balancer for getting ganged, without it those five might have killed you within seconds.... now the problem lays when those 5 can also use Bronze swords, so ends up being no balance.

 

Yes bronze is OPed and the dmg should be toned down, but without it the lower player might get fed up of being ganged and just stop pking.

 

So maybe (off topic) in the same way a player get a minus def penalty for fighting multiple opponents, the attackers should get a minus attack penalty for each extra person fighting.(PvP only not PvE)

 

If logic is needed then its because they have to becareful where they hit, so they dont hit others instead of the intented target

Edited September 15, 2009 by conavar

[Wizzy]

I do remember on my latest character, around high 90s a/d buying a dragon set and several bronze swords to compete. There was about 6 opponents in KF, all with higher a/d then mine and I killed 5 of those 6 within a few seconds. 4 of those 6 were using a thermal serpent or dragon armor.

 

Its a double edged sword tbh, the bronze sword is a great balancer for getting ganged, without it those five might have killed you within seconds.... now the problem lays when those 5 can also use Bronze swords, so ends up being no balance.

 

Yes bronze is OPed and the dmg should be toned down, but without it the lower player might get fed up of being ganged and just stop pking.

 

So maybe (off topic) in the same way a player get a minus def penalty for fighting multiple opponents, the attackers should get a minus attack penalty for each extra person fighting.(PvP only not PvE)

 

If logic is needed then its because they have to becareful where they hit, so they dont hit others instead of the intented target

NICE

[Sir_Exeus]

Just leave it as it is.

Nobody will ever be happy no matter what you do to it. It works well for PvE and better for PvP.

Sombody will always complain

Edited September 15, 2009 by Sir_Exeus