Reduction Potions

[Dugur]

TS pot fail effect was removed, which also reduced exp/hour for many trainers. We have the potions of attack and defence reduction, but to me it seems they haven't been tested due to their price (red/black dragon scale gives 12 pots.)

This is why I start this topic, to gather your experience on using the potions in training. Please post whatever you have to say about them from empiric study. What would be the price you'd actually consider using them, exp change etc. Whatever you think others might find useful bits of info.

 

In addition to this I give 18 attack reduction potions to 10 trainers I have picked. They will share what there is to say and hopefully we come to a conclusion on the pots.

[PaulB]

Bout time for this thread.

 

ty dugur

[Nola]

they are not bad but it sucks cause if u have to go afk for a few there goes money down the drain.....and since i have a 4 year old sometimes i have to go afk frequently

[nikodemus]

Just tried few attack reduction pots coz i'm fighting creature with still negative gap to it, so usin defence reduction is a bit risky and will decrease defence XP for sure. With quite high dexterity i can hit them pretty easy with reduced attack lvl.

I was using 1 att reduction pot per 5 mins session, EL daytime, clops was my target.

Statisticaliy, I get 5k5 a/d XP from 1 clop during daytime, 6k7 a/d XP during night.

 

Statistic from first session:

att: 12052

def: 10795

killed: 4 clops.

 

It gave me 211,75 oa XP more from clop.... not good, right? Found att reduction at bots for 650gc so it gave me cost 0,77gc/XP. Btw, that was my worse session on them

 

I made few more session like this, best what I get was 0,217gc/XP

 

Never tried to use reduction pots one after another to get full -30 reduction, coz now i'm running out of them.

[Dugur]

Posting on behalf of a friend who just finished a yeti session.

Training all the time with attack reduced by 5-10 the exp was increased by ~20k / hour, this with defence god. With att god the results would be about 20-30k / hour, but this will be confirmed soon by other testers.

Using potions made tester to kill yetis a bit slower which resulted in 5-10 minutes less total session time, I'd like to hear if others notice reduced time.

Also it would have been possible to use -15, so there's more testing required. One session doesn't tell too much yet :S

[korrode]

Dugur gave me some attack reduction pots to do some testing, the results are as follows:

 

I used DCW for my tests, as i can still hit them fine with -29 attack, and they are still completely 'trainable' with my p/c.

(I'm a/d/p/c 127/133/48/48, i would usually train DCW barefist and did for the 'normal' hour i tested, but i needed to use bones to get a good hit rate when on the reduction pots.)

 

Normal hour on DCW:

Attack exp: 136436

 

Attack between -29 and -24 for an hour on DCW:

Attack exp: 169848

 

The defense and magic exp i gained for the 2 tests were almost exactly the same, of course.

 

Not including the initial cost of 6 attack reduction pots to get to -29 in the first place, at 600gc per attack reduction potion, to sustain between -24 and -29 for an hour costs 7200gc (12 pots, 1 every 5 mins).

 

I gained an extra 33412 attack exp the hour on did on the reduction pots, so:

 

7200(gc) / 33412(exp) = 0.22gc per exp.

 

----------------------

 

Whether reduction pots are "worth it" is a matter of personal preference, it depends on what exactly each person is trying to gain from their training.

 

An all-rounder who has plenty of gc, doesn't so much like a/d training, and just wants to get the most a/d/oa exp in as little time possible may consider the potions worthwhile, but all-in-all, if i had to give a broad and general opinion on if i think they're "worth it", i'd say no.

 

 

EDIT:

Just a note; people using/testing defense reduction potions would potentially also need to account for increased resource consumption due to more frequent restoring and possibly increased armor breaks.

 

EDIT2:

All that said, there will certainly would be ways to set chars up specifically for usage of these pots, and i've no doubt a better rate than 0.22gc per exp could be attained for a char around my levels with the 'right' setup, but still not to a degree that i'd personally consider to be "worth it".

Edited September 8, 2009 by Korrode

[Dugur]

And what is a major flaw, in my opinion, is the EMU 5 / potion. For a session of an hour you lose 90 effective training EMU, which actually means reduced time on spawn = less exp. In total you won't win anything, except different a/d ratio.

The potion as it is is most fitting to a yeti+ trainers, who can kill their own dragons to minimize cost of a potion. From market you get red dragon scales from bots ~5,5k ea, but at lowest they've gone 2,55k on auction. This bringing pot price to rough 200-450gc ea. If you have epic stats it's possible to kill dragon for 1,5k gc or less, those in top a/d have them for breakfast. Problem is you can kill 4 dragons / hour = 48 potions if no fails. One hour training time spent to get "more effective" training time on other monsters.

Ofc yeti trainer can sacrifice some of their drops to buy pots, but then using them costs you emu and spawn time = fail due to getting a spawn in the first place. Point of reducing a/d is often to be able to train lower monster, so you need to spend double amount of gc and emu to get decent exp on lower monster. Sounds tempting? Not really.

For ordinary trainer... well I'm waiting their comments posted here too. I personally tested on fluff with att reduced around -25 and got autoattack, which was only good result imo. It does give some bonus exp but for me it isn't worth it.

So so far the biggest win on the potion is... *gasp*... to be able to attack in a/d capped arenas. Which imo, and notice just imo, screwed the whole arenas in the first place in the past.

Still, this is not the end for the pots, because we have some more user feedback to gain.

[Entropy]

All that said, there will certainly would be ways to set chars up specifically for usage of these pots, and i've no doubt a better rate than 0.22gc per exp could be attained for a char around my levels with the 'right' setup, but still not to a degree that i'd personally consider to be "worth it".

 

What ratio of gc/exp would you start considering them worth it?

[bkc56]

What ratio of gc/exp would you start considering them worth it?

I'm not sure that all skills should be considered equivalent, but from this thread about Harvester Meds and their cost, values ranged from .20 to .33 gc/exp (I believe CelticLady came up with 5 exp/gc for manufacturing and I did 3 exp/gc for crafting). Again, I'm not saying it's worth the cost for a/d, but .22 gc/exp is in that same range.

[korrode]

All that said, there will certainly would be ways to set chars up specifically for usage of these pots, and i've no doubt a better rate than 0.22gc per exp could be attained for a char around my levels with the 'right' setup, but still not to a degree that i'd personally consider to be "worth it".

 

What ratio of gc/exp would you start considering them worth it?

I'm not a good person to ask, because:

 

1. I disagree with the concept of the reduction potions in general. Being able to artificially lower ones a/d seems, well, silly.

Usage of these potions means some people would train lower a/d monsters, clogging spawns. Some people wont change to a lower monster, they'll just get better exp on their current monster, which in my mind is imbalanced... this especially applies to very high level a/d'ers who would use these potions but remain on yeti; it doesn't at all help to retain the a/d softcap.

 

2. Exp per hour is still an important point for me, but much less-so than previously. With how much PK costs me, gc gained per minute and resource used is, these days, overshadowing exp per hour for me.

So the cost per exp for me personally to use these potions would need to be extremely low... but as i say, i'm a not a good person to ask; i'm not the target market for these potions.

[Entropy]

Usage of these potions means some people would train lower a/d monsters, clogging spawns.

 

So long as there is a relatively high cost associated with doing that, I don't think the spawns will be clogged. And there are plenty of spawns for most levels, many of them unused.

[SenZon]

What if this potion had the same concept as the TS pots?

 

I.E:

You wouldnt lose a/d penalty every min if food level is negative.

 

BUT make this potion take a whole RD/BD scale per potion, more expensive and you will be the one to control how much exp/gc ratio you get.

[korrode]

Bad idea.

 

1. it would reduce PK; i.e. people wont want to "un-TS" due to the cost, so they wont bother going PK. (also some would keep low p/c for feros/fluff so that also would make them less inclined to PK.

2. the cost associated with the potions is a lot = the ebul rich ppls have it easier, everyone else has it harder.

 

Soz SenZ

[SenZon]

We dont always have to agree ^^

[korrode]

but i like us to agree and have hugs

[SenZon]

it wouldnt be the best solution but it would make the pot be used more the it is now, now you have to agree

also would remove some scales from the game

 

 

now we are back on the same page

[korrode]

nuuu scales can be use in my 'dragon great swords'.

[Raistlin]

Hi there,

 

I just want to throw in my experience using att-red pots.

 

Preliminary notes: Att/Def 88/88 and attack god

 

I tested 1h on single fluff using 12 att-red pots (quaffed 1 per 5 min) and got ~4k att-xp more than normal.

Personally I think that those pots need a bit of rework. I agree with the basic concept to make it expensive

to gain more combat-xp using such pots, still I think they are a bit too expensive. I would vote to make them

stay at -5 att/def for 5 min, after that 0. Not sure about the stackable effect though.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Raistlin

[Dugur]

There are still ppl who tested but stayed silent. If there's something to add from your experience, please add it.

[RallosZek]

Did a test:

93/97 a/d unmod

36/48/44 p/c/w

astro: -1 att, 0 def, 0 acc, -1 magic

godless

feros

 

Modded attack to -29, which was far too optimistic. Around 5k att and 25k def out of two kills. Kept looking at att exp flow and settled on -7 to -2.

 

Results with 15 pots:

148k att

204k def

1 hour 10 mins

 

Will amend post tomorrow with unmodded results, but off memory, the difference isn't much.

[korrode]

Did a test:

93/97 a/d unmod

36/48/44 p/c/w

...

feros

You char really isn't at a point where the potions would be of effective use, atm you need all/most of your levels to do your training.

 

EDIT:

I'm not saying don't do the tests or that you're contribution isn't worthwhile, just that you're not an optimal test subject, the target market for those potions isn't you, yet.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Korrode

[RallosZek]

An all-rounder who has plenty of gc, doesn't so much like a/d training, and just wants to get the most a/d/oa exp in as little time possible may consider the potions worthwhile, but all-in-all, if i had to give a broad and general opinion on if i think they're "worth it", i'd say no.

You char really isn't at a point where the potions would be of effective use, atm you need all/most of your levels to do your training.

 

Don't contradict yourself.

 

This is first of a series of tests:

1) See what is optimal at current training monster and if extra oa/hour is worth it

2) Scale down one monster in my case fluffy, att only

3) Scale down two, in my case clops, att only

 

I personally don't like scaling down, cause those spawns should be for people at those levels, but I'm often in Egratia hunting feran horns, seeing either no one or people fighting in full tit with cutty doing crap for damage and needing 2-3 restores, so on those occasions I wouldn't mind.

[korrode]

I didn't contradict myself so much as my first post you quoted lacks information/detail.

 

If we're talking single spawn, scaling down to clops will result in less exp p/h for you than not using the potions at all and remaining on fluff/feros.

 

On fluff/feros, you can't scale down much, so the exp increase you gain is so small yet the cost of keeping yourself scaled down that little bit is the same as keeping scaled to -29.

 

I was just saying you're not an optimal test subject, no where near, and in that i am correct.

[romedogg]

o tried it also and they suk bad ask liam i tried and he told me how bad is sucked when i gave him results

[Entropy]

o tried it also and they suk bad ask liam i tried and he told me how bad is sucked when i gave him results

 

Thank you for your very informative post. Have a nice break from the forums again.