Summons & TS.

[TigerClaw]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by TigerClaw

[Raz]

Some quick points...

1) Training to be a mage takes 5 minutes?

2) Smite summon is about the only way you can take out the acw.....

3) Train a/d to get to the level that you can withstand 8 acw - that will take considerably longer than 1 year..

 

Don't get me wrong - I think mages are way too powerful in El - but so is the ACW summon!

[PaulB]

Some quick points...

1) Training to be a mage takes 5 minutes?

2) Smite summon is about the only way you can take out the acw.....

3) Train a/d to get to the level that you can withstand 8 acw - that will take considerably longer than 1 year..

 

Don't get me wrong - I think mages are way too powerful in El - but so is the ACW summon!

 

Agreed.

 

Also use some bears to MD him and try to keep him from using that mana to restore rather than smite your summons.

 

Tactics ftw!

[robotbob]

And thats how a balanced PK game does and should work.

One type of pker will destroy one type,easily, but another type has an advantage.

It does create planning, and I am glad EL is moving in this direction.

 

If you created a pk environment, that if you reached the top in your pk skill (summon,ad,range),

you were essentially invulnerable, pk tactics come to a halt.

 

So my opinion is, have a team member hunting stealth mages, this was the

defacto grp vs grp in shadowbane (scouts, thieves and other rogues) and made

it a outstanding pk environment.

 

So in conclusion, IMHO,

You are suggesting your summons be both made strong against melee

and magic, steps to an overpowered state.

 

(PS I've used many giants (from stones) in KF, only to see the slowly smited,

but without it, I could have kept them alive and killing forever)

[bigkav]

Actually robotbob, you're totally and utterly wrong. A fighter spends years leveling himself to be stronger, a mage takes a few months and can kill anyone. It's total and utter bullshit. The harm formula is more ridiculous then the damn bronze sword. want OP? level a mage, only takes 3 or so months of your time to kill the top 10 a/d.

[robotbob]

Actually robotbob, you're totally and utterly wrong. A fighter spends years leveling himself to be stronger, a mage takes a few months and can kill anyone. It's total and utter bullshit. The harm formula is more ridiculous then the damn bronze sword. want OP? level a mage, only takes 3 or so months of your time to kill the top 10 a/d.

 

I am right. However it is not my fault the leveling times version mage and melee aren't equal.

I am completely right in my assertion about pk, it worked for 6+ years shadowbane was played.

 

Again, don't fault me for the leveling system to be wrong, the concept is about rock-paper-scissors pk is correct.

Edited August 27, 2009 by robotbob

[bigkav]

Lol, can any melee fighter/summoner/any other damn combat "class" do 100-200 damage in 1 second? I think not. Have you ever fought a mage in the current combat system? No, oh that's why because you don't train in PK nor do you fight in PK.

[XenaMT]

I agree with robotbob, a balance to PK can only add to frustration but also greater satisfaction for PKers. However, everyone and their uncle's mage alt these days, with OA 50 or less reeking havoc with 120-dmg harms with only 30 mag lvl seems a bit silly, when others have 70, 80, 90+ mag lvl and cannot manage that unless they've dumped mass PPs into will/reason. A mage, imho, should be someone who's trained magic, not unlike a summoner/fighter/whatever who've worked their asses off to level and get strong. Rationality should be a very important factor in the strength of some (all?) spells, but the way I see it currently with harms, is way out-of-balance. Start newb alt, level a/d to 21, harv blue lupines until you can neg out and dump all PPs into w/r and buy a few k matter essies and SRs to burn in TD. Insta-pr0 mage with mag 30, easy - takes all of a few weeks.

[Raytray]

MI is to the Mages what Invisi is to the summons?

 

edit: I agree that rationality plays a little too much in magic, but pickpoint placement is another big thing in the game I suppose heh.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Raytray

[robotbob]

I agree with XenaMT on magic dependance on rationality. On my tests, I harm greater with 40 magic\48 rationality, than I do with

70s magic and 24 rationality. Its hard leaning in the direction of rationality over actually magic levels.

 

On the other poster insistance on holding me to thing I did not say, again I am

for balance, and if the current mage class can out DPS any other class, then it requires alteration.

I hope you read this one before I'm held to some other broken thing I never supported.

[bigkav]

Sometimes, it's the only way to get people to listen, instead of blurting on about quantum physics. This will be my last* post, if this doesn't get fixed I'm out for good. Sure I could always make a mage alt myself and go with the rest of the flock, but what's the point in that? Having to compensate with this games combat system and giving suggestions to improve it, doesn't go anywhere. If I didn't love this game so much I would've of stopped trying a long time ago.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Luigi

[Dugur]

Lol, can any melee fighter/summoner/any other damn combat "class" do 100-200 damage in 1 second? I think not. Have you ever fought a mage in the current combat system? No, oh that's why because you don't train in PK nor do you fight in PK.

 

Yes, they can.

[bigkav]

Single Handed? Unless you're summoning 1 dragon, then no you can't, and even then it has a massive cost. it cost's a mage 3 DEs and 5 HEs. and even in single combat, spells can still be cast on someone else by an outsider.

[Dugur]

See, there's your problem. Whining for the lack of knowledge. And how many hits can you do with a weapon until it breaks and then count how much damage it deals and the price / dmg. Then compare to magic costs. We can look at things the way we want and make it look favourable for our own points of view.

Robotbob and others have already said the relevant points on this topic. Speaking of topic, this is yet again turning to oh boo-hoo mage can harm for big dmg. GG! \o/

 

Think this:

One on one normal encounter speaking of original post, the smite attempt fails. Now the mage did a countermeasure - invis. The whole idea of a counter is to get advantage - success. Now we have counters to counters, some mentioned in this topic. Some ppl even manage to see the good sides of this. See, strategy isn't choosing equipment and running at enemy.

 

What is wanted here is to one person be able to kill all with little effort. Read again what robotbob had to say and fill the promise you gave, please.

--This will be my last* post, if this doesn't get fixed I'm out for good. --

[Miiks]

Just use MI and mage can't do anything? I think everyone uses it when they're fighting bigger bunch of people. And if you are alone in KF w/o MI and mage comes and harms you to death, it doesn't matter since all you have to do is walk/tele back to KF, take TS pot and then kill the mage lol...

 

I'm still thinking ND KF ruined PK...

[Dilly]

Just use MI and mage can't do anything? I think everyone uses it when they're fighting bigger bunch of people. And if you are alone in KF w/o MI and mage comes and harms you to death, it doesn't matter since all you have to do is walk/tele back to KF, take TS pot and then kill the mage lol...

 

I'm still thinking ND KF ruined PK...

 

Miiksi <3

This isn't about mage vs. fighter though, this is about mage vs. summons. Can't give a summon MI can ya?

 

 

Just to show how strong an influence reasoning is: with magic level 68 (not too bad a magiclevel, around rank 160 iirc), but only 4 reasoning, I can't even harm a beaver to death.

 

But a mage can add loads to a fighting team, and if you fail to have one in your team, that shouldn't mean the mechanics of the skill should be changed for everyone, it just means that you don't have a complete team around you.

 

Just because someone comes and kills your buzz doesn't automatically mean the game is faulty.

[Miiks]

Just use MI and mage can't do anything? I think everyone uses it when they're fighting bigger bunch of people. And if you are alone in KF w/o MI and mage comes and harms you to death, it doesn't matter since all you have to do is walk/tele back to KF, take TS pot and then kill the mage lol...

 

I'm still thinking ND KF ruined PK...

 

Miiksi <3

This isn't about mage vs. fighter though, this is about mage vs. summons. Can't give a summon MI can ya?

Just make it so that summons have MI. Wouldn't be bad idea imo.

 

Edit: Would stop mana and life draining summons too.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Miiks

[Cyprom]

Just use MI and mage can't do anything? I think everyone uses it when they're fighting bigger bunch of people. And if you are alone in KF w/o MI and mage comes and harms you to death, it doesn't matter since all you have to do is walk/tele back to KF, take TS pot and then kill the mage lol...

 

I'm still thinking ND KF ruined PK...

 

Miiksi <3

This isn't about mage vs. fighter though, this is about mage vs. summons. Can't give a summon MI can ya?

Just make it so that summons have MI. Wouldn't be bad idea imo.

 

Edit: Would stop mana and life draining summons too.

If summons have MI then what's the point of Smite Summoned?

You're kinda falling back to the original suggestion of giving summons TS

 

I have to agree with robotbob and most of the others. The system is fine as it is, except for the easy creation of a mage (alt)

[bigkav]

@Dugur: Another time, another place. As for your remark, I'll be closer then you think

 

The combat system has been De-railed for a long time now, fix it before it's too late. Sure the game is putting on, but we are loosing players. I, and many others have described the changes needed in many many threads. Please look over them.

[boognish]

fix it before it's too late.

:cry: oh the drama

 

To extend the rock/paper/scissors analogy and the previous improvements to summoning, how about giving summoned falcons TS ability.

[nathanstenzel]

Isn't the true problem here that he was interfering with the combat and you could not tell your summons to not attack the nearest opponent?

 

They were most likely attacking your pk opponent when you would like some new summons to go attack that mage. Perhaps if a "defend" option was added to the menu for summons, you would be able to have them defend you and other summons of yours when you or your summons are attacked. That would solve the issue, wouldn't it?

[robotbob]

I hopes of giving a productive suggestion, besides the omfg its boRk'd, maybe

an idea, to the original problem:

 

(Disclaimer: I know the original topic is about summons, but summons are melee by proxy anyway)

 

(Skip to the -short version-, if you feel sleepy )

Perhaps, all that is needed is a magic counter(unlike a ward), but would also work against

melees, with restore as an exception** In the other, closed but outstanding pk game, they

employed a tactic called a "PowerBlock". If you get the drop on a magic user,(pre-emptive strike)

you can 'powerblock' them, to prevent spells for 3-5 seconds.

 

Although, a magic user would have the ability to 'freeze\root' a melee, as the equal counter. it worked quite well.

(Now with Great Heals doing 80 per now, melee have extra insurance, in cooldowns.)

 

However, powerblocks were not spells for melee, they were 'special skills'. A player

could trigger, with cooldown, to get a certain effect, and weapon dependant (Axe may

have powerblocks, while a sword may possibly not). This gives other implementation options, besides

more spells melees are dependant on :/

 

Again, with their system. A lone pkers life span was incredibly short, at the very least you required

a scout, to reveal "stealthers". (aka invisible mages, and rogues) Just IMHO, but group vs group is better

than, lone super character that cannot be killed, because it spent 1,000 hours\$$ to become so.

 

I don't believe the system is at all derailed, its evolving, to a rock-paper-scissors

complex system.While others still long for the simplicty of EL's early years, the 'old school'

system was stagnate. You will greatly reduce anyones interest in player combat, if you give them

1 option, most people have different styles, I've played both thief\barbarians, one is sneak, the

other is smashie smashie kill.

 

SHort veRsions:

• New Powerblock\Stun- spell-weapons-effect-??something - to counter mages
  
• Freeze\Root spell for mages to counter melees
  

 

Its reasonable to assert, if a mage was WacK'd with a Titanium Axe, he would be so

stunned he cannot cast anything, except restore** and a mage could freeze a melee, instead of using, disengagement

rings for the same purpose.

 

So conclusion:

 

Make a counter <-> counter, and you have balance, then its up to the players timing and actual human planning powers

to time these counters to win, no automated win win.

 

** - until el has an alternative healing method equal for melees, or healers become a viable part of player combat.

I'll save healers role in another epic post\thread to prevent major hijackz

[robotbob]

Sorry for the double post, just going to point something out about rationality.

The obvious reason harm\restore etc is dependant on rationality and not pure magic

levels is:

 

All high AD fighters also have 70+ magic, if it was purely based on magic levels, then

top fighters would be top mages. The game would be right back to the start, the super battlemage,

before the restore changes.

[korrode]

Healing potions should offer an equivalent 'amount' of healing at a cheaper 'cost' than magic does. (Probably best achieved by both cheapening potions and increasing the essence and magic requirement of the restore spell.)

 

That way high a/d people wouldn't necessarily all be high mages, only those who took a (significantly) more expensive healing route throughout their training would be.

 

This of course is useless for the current EL, as there's too many high magic + high a/d chars, but perhaps something to think about for the 'non-beta EL server' :>

[Tico]

My 50cents here, since i also summon ACs times to times.

 

I agree that smite should be powerfull against them... but i think an ally mage should be able to heal summoned on them, not only the summoner

 

Heal summoned should be an alowed spell to all players in the range of summoned creatures,

 

Summoners spend all their mana making the creatures and keeping himself alive. I think that would be fair if other players could heal the creatures aswell (maybe on a decreased tax then summoner idk...)

 

Just my opinion