Why you don't make money in EL

[Mr.Mind]

About every 6 months or so, the EL forums has another complaint by some manufacturer/crafter that they can't seem to make any money within the game. For years, I've understood intuitively that the people who make these complaints are fooling themselves. Now, after so much time trying to translate this understanding into terms that make sense to everybody else, I have finally found an analogy that works.

 

The cost calculations that people have been using are actually correct. But, as some of you may remember, I preferred to count my costs as zero. Why?

 

Well, in reality, those costs, which are counted as the gold coins you are giving up by not selling the raw materials, are actually being used to pay for xp. What this means is that the "cost" is what you are paying to level up. It is the same thing as what you pay to go to college. You aren't getting anything necessarily tangible out of it, but you're paying to "level up." Assuming you're making all of the ingredients yourself, the monetary terms of the transaction are irrelevant - every sale produces a profit.

 

Here is a small sample of how the xp can be translated into the value of a gold coin. Using the same cost calculations that everyone else uses, and calculating the total amount of xp that you would get in every skill by doing it all yourself, I took cost over xp to show how much 1 xp is worth in gc for each of these items. These numbers might seem a little out of date, but that's because they are from 2006. However, the idea is the same.

 

Item | Cost to Make Per Unit | Total XP Per Unit | Cost of XP in GC

 

Iron Shield | 265.22 | 2510 | 0.11

Steel Shield | 486.48 | 5291.5 | 0.09

Iron helm | 146.7 | 2334 | 0.06

Iron chain mail | 367.02 | 5991.5 | 0.06

 

Item | Cost to Make Per Unit | Total XP Per Unit | Cost of XP in GC

 

Fire Essence | 1.37 | 42.5 | 0.03

Magic Essence | 5.29 | 122 | 0.04

Health Essence | 4.83 | 120.25 | 0.04

Life Essence | 3.92 | 104 | 0.04

Iron Bar | 22.73 | 403 | 0.06

Steel Bar | 28.1 | 522 | 0.05

Titanium Bar | 38.61 | 755 | 0.05

 

Item | Cost to Make Per Unit | Total XP Per Unit | Cost of XP in GC

 

Unicorn Medallion | 87.33 | 2530.5 | 0.03

Sun Medallion | 135.65 | 2898.5 | 0.05

Moon Medallion | 94.64 | 1918.5 | 0.05

Stars Medallion | 93.29 | 1904.5 | 0.05

 

I will admit, the XP values are slightly inflated because it is assuming you manage to get all of the harvesting XP from the item you're making, but with the harvesting cap that is not feasible (may be taken out later). Even so, xp seems to be pretty cheap (at about 1 xp per .05 gc in the medallions, or 1 gc will "buy" you 20 xp). But where is that xp going? Let's do a breakdown of the unicorn medallion.

 

Alc XP = 896

Craft XP = 132

Harvest XP = 1502.5

Total XP = 2530.5

 

Crafting XP is only 5% of the total! In fact, most of it (59%) goes to harvesting. In terms of the amount of time you spend doing each skill, that sounds about right. So, lets say you decide to buy the stuff to make the Unicorn Medallion. At a cost of 87.33, then 1 gc will only "buy" 1.5 xp (or conversely, each xp point is worth .66 gc)! It shows the obvious; that crafting is relatively expensive to level up in. But what is less obvious is that anything above zero is what you are being paid just for making the item. The cost is covered by xp.

 

The point is that all of these complaints about the economy are really a misunderstanding of the value of xp. What is happening here is that people are focusing on what they are giving up, but ignoring what they're getting. You're not making any money based on the monetary costs. Yes, there are costs, but they are completely and reasonably covered by xp. If they weren't, a lot of items wouldn't be manufactured at all.

 

But this is all the theoretical ramblings of a madman. What actual physical evidence is there that a strategy based on this evaluation would be successful? It has already been done.

 

Do not underestimate the value of xp.

-Martholomew Mind

[Wizzy]

Yes, that is true

 

 

However, for those that have level'd up to the top still can not make a profit, and as soon as they start to get close, prices of enriched ess, bindings etc go higher still.

 

So it is a prepetual grind, which is fine too.

[Elf_Ninja]

I've always played more for xp then gc, then when I get gc I use it to get xp imo xp=future gc even if it's not total profit.

 

If your wanting to include harvesting xp into your calculations you should consider getting the total possible then multiplying it by 6-10% that would be more realistic based on amount of harvest time in an hour that you do not get xp, just a thought.

[Infamous]

Warning, first post contains hot air, and other self praising kind of stuff

[chr0nik]

Experience isn't the only intangible of value, time also has a value - especially for people who spend less of it in this game.

 

In regard to your crafting examples, to someone training crafting, the experience gained for harvesting and alchemy has much less value. I've personally found that outside of power-leveling with polished gems or whatever, crafting is a great way to train alchemy.

 

As Wizzy said, I think the profit complaints lately are largely due to the rising cost of rare stones and enriched ess, not necessarily what each individual harvested resource would sell for compared to their value when mixed.

[The_Piper]

As Wizzy said, I think the profit complaints lately are largely due to the rising cost of rare stones and enriched ess, not necessarily what each individual harvested resource would sell for compared to their value when mixed.

 

I can't complain about making money in game.

 

I am fine with selling leather stuff and steel chains/shields and trading with essies and bars with my bot.

 

Maybe the idea, making stuff which requires enriched essences and/or rare stones, to make money does not work.

 

MrMind said, that you should calculate the time you need to make stuff with zero gc.

 

That is not completely right, compare that time with the amount of gold coins you use in game.

 

So, if you wreck 10 ti plates per day or use 10k HE's and SR's, your game play might be wrong and thats why you cant make money in game

 

Piper

Edited June 12, 2009 by The_Piper

[Mr.Mind]

No, I didn't include time spent, even though it is an important factor. But the same idea would hold. If you're not getting enough xp to cover the cost of the materials and the time you're giving up, then either do something else or find a faster way to do it!

 

As a general rule, I always avoided manufacturing items that required rare objects. It is too difficult to mass produce them, and the xp is not worth the attempt. Of course, that might be different from when I played 3 years ago.

 

To clarify my original post a bit: if you want to make money, find the fastest way to do it, and if you want to level up, find the fastest way to do it. You cannot reasonably expect to have the best of both at the same time. Even further, if you want to make money but what you're doing isn't working, why are you doing it?

 

If xp has no value to you and the item sells for a loss, then you are running a loss and should do something else, but if the xp is worth more than the cost of the item (including the time spent), then you should make the item even if you can't "profit" from it (and that's what most people do). My calculations are really just a benchmark. If you think of buying the materials and crafting xp is worth more to you than 1.5 gc per xp (maybe a little different with time included), then your costs are covered and it doesn't matter what you sell for because you are paying to leveling up. If the xp is worth less than 1.5 and you can't sell for a "profit" then don't make the moon medallion. If you make it anyway, then blame yourself, not the market.

 

I'm simply calling for people to stop underestimating the value of xp. Even if it unconscious, everyone values it.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Mr.Mind

[Gohan]

Omigod, can someone explain how dis guy can get .5 exp for an item? Hax pl0x!

 

Edit: And yea, tbh, if you're trying to be a smartass and you're giving weird numbers like 0.5, while this isn't actually possible, I don't even wanna read on anymore.

 

-Gohan

Edited June 13, 2009 by Gohan

[Mr.Mind]

I used Flinto's spreadsheet to come up with those numbers. It is outdated but for what I am doing with it, that's not too important.

 

http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.p...st&p=237736

 

The .5 came out because the spreadsheet discounts for failure rates, so it is really more of an average than an actual amount.

[Ateh]

nobody bothers to factor into any spreadsheets the very important factor of fun

 

without the fun factor your numbers , xp per hour , gc per hour stuff has no meaning

 

its not fun to start poor , work your ass off and remain poor

 

however if you think the experience of being poor is worth it then im looking for someone to paint my house for 0.5 cents a day

[popeye]

nobody bothers to factor into any spreadsheets the very important factor of fun

 

without the fun factor your numbers , xp per hour , gc per hour stuff has no meaning

 

its not fun to start poor , work your ass off and remain poor

 

however if you think the experience of being poor is worth it then im looking for someone to paint my house for 0.5 cents a day

Make it ten and I'm in. It has to be fun if you're helping the economy. And what's good for the economy is good for El.

[nathanstenzel]

Your very premise suggests that after a person has gotten to where they are satisfied with their level in a skill, they should stop doing it because the xp for them is then worthless to them because they don't care.

 

The time spent on many items far outweighs the xp given by them even if you consider the fact that if you harvest it yourself, you lose no gc.

 

If people took what you said to heart, people would say "Ok. I'm good enough now. I'm going to quit EL". We don't want that now, do we?

[bkc56]

Your very premise suggests that after a person has gotten to where they are satisfied with their level in a skill, they should stop doing it because the xp for them is then worthless to them because they don't care.

But there is some truth to that (at least for me). I will pick a goal for a given skill and grind the skill (sometimes in a school for 100% gc loss) until I reach the goal. Then I stop and only use the skill to make items I want (personally, or to sell). Once I reach the goal, further exp in the skill doesn't matter.

 

Once one skill is "done", I'll move on to something else. I will often come back to a skill later and set a new/higher goal. But there's a very clear difference to me between grinding a skill to reach some goal, and using a skill for fun or profit.

 

This has been even more true during the last 1.5 years on the PK server since I've had much clearer goals and objectives than I ever had on main.

[Entris]

I have goals when i play and i think most of the ppl that plays a game has that, i can set a goal in a skill like, I want to get lvl so an so in that skill and then count out how many items i have to make with my current lvl to get to that goal and then start getting ingreds for it and then make the items to get the exp to get the lvl i want and so on, i make huge projects for myself to lvl each and every skill i want to get to a sertain lvl in just that skill a´nd that works for me.

 

I know there are alot of diffrent types of players out there from those who only sit and talk to their friends to those that do everything to power lvl and those that do everything to get rich as hell fast and that works for them but the most important thing IMO is to have fun! As long as you are having fun it doesn't matter what you are doing but you should keep doing what ever it is!

 

To me EL is a place to relax have fun and talk to ppl if i feel like it, i do what i want to do atm, do i need GC for something i just do what i have to do to get em even tho i have to mine 30k tit ores if i get tired of it i do something else for a while and then get back to mining if i want to, what ever i want i can get it when i get it i'm in no rush.

[Mr.Mind]

Including "fun" in the equation, which can't be reliably measured, still wouldn't change the basic idea, which is don't do it if it isn't worth doing.

 

However, since this game is a level-grind, you would expect each skill to get less fun over time until you've exhausted your enthusiasm for every skill (I'm sure everyone has a different level limit in each skill). Then it is no longer worth playing the game at all. That isn't necessarily Entropy's fault, because every level-grind game is like that. It's just a basic observation.

[nathanstenzel]

Including "fun" in the equation, which can't be reliably measured, still wouldn't change the basic idea, which is don't do it if it isn't worth doing.

 

However, since this game is a level-grind, you would expect each skill to get less fun over time until you've exhausted your enthusiasm for every skill (I'm sure everyone has a different level limit in each skill). Then it is no longer worth playing the game at all. That isn't necessarily Entropy's fault, because every level-grind game is like that. It's just a basic observation.

Well, don't expect to buy any items from me unless you can meet my price which gets me profit over ingreds. It isn't worth it to me otherwise, because I need more gc to get more ingreds to sell to more people including my own guild. Some of the fun for me is to involve my guild in the efforts by making events, but even if I save money that way, I still won't lower the price. I don't feel like it is worth it for me to lower my prices just because I know how to be more efficient than someone else supplying an item. It isn't worth it to me to harvest for an entire day to get something to sell to compensate myself for selling at a loss.....I never want to sell for a loss unless it is to Trik.

 

Sorry. I am one of those people that believes in profit in your chosen skill and not having to have a side job to pay for the job you really want to do. And it is a job too. The stuff people want to buy isn't a power level item in manu. For potions, it might be a different story. SR's are a leveling item and high in demand. Leather helms are not. s2e are, but I just don't feel like feeding someone else's manufacturing. I want to feed my own.

[Mr.Mind]

...

Sorry. I am one of those people that believes in profit in your chosen skill and not having to have a side job to pay for the job you really want to do. And it is a job too. The stuff people want to buy isn't a power level item in manu. For potions, it might be a different story. SR's are a leveling item and high in demand. Leather helms are not. s2e are, but I just don't feel like feeding someone else's manufacturing. I want to feed my own.

We, as players, are in no position to change that, which makes this discussion irrelevant. You may want to take that issue to someone who is in a position to change it, which would probably also be pointless if they are inept, corrupt, or some combination of the two.

 

We don't make money in EL doing what we want to do, and it doesn't matter because that won't change.

[nathanstenzel]

We don't make money in EL doing what we want to do, and it doesn't matter because that won't change.

I'm sorry, but that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. Just because something won't change does not mean it does not matter.

[Mr.Mind]

We don't make money in EL doing what we want to do, and it doesn't matter because that won't change.

I'm sorry, but that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. Just because something won't change does not mean it does not matter.

To clarify: complaints about it do not matter.

 

I sense hints of unabashed idealism. A fair, unemotional evaluation of the economic situation would allow you to see that players' attempts to control the situation are guaranteed to fail (as they always have), particularly when every aspect of the economy is under a central command. Directing your attitude towards "fair" pricing is misguided and futile when you clearly do not have the power or the voice to change it. It does nothing but bring about endless debates over relatively insignificant details where any conclusions (good or bad) are nearly guaranteed to be ignored (entropy will do what he wants, not what you tell him to do).

 

Please tell me why, other than as an intellectual exercise, does it matter when you have no power or voice to change the outcome? And, if there is any reasonable explanation, why there is such an emotional charge over the issue?

[nathanstenzel]

We don't make money in EL doing what we want to do, and it doesn't matter because that won't change.

I'm sorry, but that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. Just because something won't change does not mean it does not matter.

To clarify: complaints about it do not matter.

 

I sense hints of unabashed idealism. A fair, unemotional evaluation of the economic situation would allow you to see that players' attempts to control the situation are guaranteed to fail (as they always have), particularly when every aspect of the economy is under a central command. Directing your attitude towards "fair" pricing is misguided and futile when you clearly do not have the power or the voice to change it. It does nothing but bring about endless debates over relatively insignificant details where any conclusions (good or bad) are nearly guaranteed to be ignored (entropy will do what he wants, not what you tell him to do).

 

Please tell me why, other than as an intellectual exercise, does it matter when you have no power or voice to change the outcome? And, if there is any reasonable explanation, why there is such an emotional charge over the issue?

Controlling Radu is not likely. He is no pet or slave.

Controlling ourselves is. I have been getting occasional sales at my prices.

....I think I already said that, but could not let the thread end with an incorrect statement.

(of course he did pm me that he was an antagonist) hehe I just let out his little secret.

[Mr.Mind]

Controlling Radu is not likely. He is no pet or slave.

Controlling ourselves is. I have been getting occasional sales at my prices.

....I think I already said that, but could not let the thread end with an incorrect statement.

(of course he did pm me that he was an antagonist) hehe I just let out his little secret.

Clearly you're not wrong - you are getting sales. But that doesn't necessarily make me wrong. What we're talking about here is simply a different level of demand. In danger of getting too technical, I will keep this simple. If you want more sales, lower the price (my strategy) or try to influence the demand to reach your price (nathanstenzel's idea). It is much easier to lower the price than to convince people that your higher price is somehow better, especially when there are two identical items (as in EL, nobody makes higher quality health essenes than anyone else). You have to find reasons for charging a higher price other than one being inherently better than another, because they are all the same.

 

What I have been trying to explain here is that even though everyone makes identical items, the quality of the same type of items as a whole is not set by the players. So, while I am willing to admit that players do have some control over it, they are bound within a general range of prices based upon one item group's quality in relation to other items, NPC prices, usefulness, ect. Players who believe they have control over those features are deceiving themselves and they need to quit whining about it.

 

And I think everyone already knew that I like to push buttons. I have to see what they all do.

 

[EDIT] For a summary of what I just said, read my signature.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Mr.Mind

[nathanstenzel]

"Everything is worth what the customer is willing to pay."

 

That is about true, but you only if you consider yourself as a customer too. If you are willing to pay X amount to get something and someone else is not, your bid wins. Don't sell if the other person is not willing to give you the amount you are willing to pay to get the item in the first place.

 

If I buy a CoL for 60K and nobody is willing to buy it for anything else than 20K, I will sell it to myself, thank you very much.

 

By the way, a friend suggested to me that you don't even play this game. Do you?

Edited June 23, 2009 by nathanstenzel

[Mr.Mind]

"Everything is worth what the customer is willing to pay."

 

That is about true, but you only if you consider yourself as a customer too. If you are willing to pay X amount to get something and someone else is not, your bid wins. Don't sell if the other person is not willing to give you the amount you are willing to pay to get the item in the first place.

 

If I buy a CoL for 60K and nobody is willing to buy it for anything else than 20K, I will sell it to myself, thank you very much.

 

By the way, a friend suggested to me that you don't even play this game. Do you?

Yes, that's right.

 

And yes, that's also right. I haven't played this game for years. At this point I'm merely an impartial observer.

[Krystal V]

Than why are you wasting your time?

[Mr.Mind]

Than why are you wasting your time?

For the same reason that people play the game. It is entertaining.