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A few thoughts on the future development of the game

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(Ateh :P)

 

So, there's a poll where the no's can only vote by also admitting they're gay, and they still won.

 

So what's this thread about? Really.

 

Such a major proposal should have been just a simple topic (no poll) in order to hammer out all the glitches and come up with a solid plan, with all aspects detailed for those who don't/can't listen to the "invasion" channel.

 

Then, allow people to vote on how much they would mind if it was implemented just for a trial period...Only something like 95-100% against could justify scrapping it altogether at this point. (Most nos would probably change their vote if they knew they were involved in an ongoing, inclusive process, not just a simple should we do it or not? (doing what, exactly?))

 

Then implement...then at the end of the trial period ask people once again what they think/whether or not they still enjoy the game.

 

Leave, further tweak, or scrap based on the now educated and experienced opinions of those affected.

 

I'm a noob/just my 2gc/I could be wrong/bla bla bla all that crap I don't even care how experienced/social I am anymore, this just sounds better than all the MumboJumbo I've been seeing lately. (I'm still trying to figure out if what I read was really real...someone announcing that all the people who didn't vote would have voted yes anyway...I can only assume there was some sarcasm there that I missed, otherwise...wow, I wouldn't even know what to say to that)

 

So now instead putting the effort into wording/implementing proposals more effectively and in a more transparent and inclusive way, we're suggesting an elite class of decision makers, either thru appointment or wealth?

 

Radu, I heard you once suggest that the gold-harvesting problem could be solved by you not paying attention to this game anymore (little if any updates/changes) and working on different money making endeavors. You sounded serious, so if you were, I'd vote for that. I'd rather have the game snapshotted and remain "stagnant" than have it turn into just about every other online game.

 

~neverman

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I didn't vote, I did some reading about the poll. I'd vote for depletable harvestables if the poll came up again. Or answer in 6 if I saw Radu ask a ? about it. Why stop at 20 ish folks for a council? Why not 500? Or maybe just 3. Anyway, I'm off to fight the orcs.

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:x you might get a forumz ban tsk tsk

 

and I see a CelticLady reading :)

 

You caught meh :P

 

To be on topic, having a type of council or group of people to help run ideas past etc. can be a great idea. However, in practice it doesn't always work out as intended, like many things. As one of the qualities Entropy mentioned, 100% unbiased. That is likely the hardest quality to find. I struggle with that one on a project I'm working on. It is very, very hard to be unbiased about something that is detrimental to something you personaly do, especially if your personal opinion is that it is a bad idea. To look past that and see how others might think about the same idea and how they may want it and see it as a good thing is sometimes very difficult. Then to think about it from both sides and decide if it is better for the game as a whole... >.< It isn't always easy to determine if you have thought through both sides before making a final decision or if you are so opposed to something that you just can't clearly see the other perspective.

 

It can also be good to poll the players on what they want too, but as has been stated you get a lot of flames. The actual opinions aren't so bad because, in my opinion, you want to know the opinion of the players. Wading through it all can be a pain though.

 

Something in between perhaps. A group that polls the player base on possible changes and accepts questions/clarification requests from them could be beneficial. They then discuss that as a group with Entropy and go back to the players with the clarifications and gets a better picture on their feelings. Final step is to take that data into consideration and suggest to Entropy based on their discussion how they feel is best to proceed with a proposed change. Although that may be too much to deal with. I dunno, just the ramblings of a not really active player.

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Think Im pretty much with neverman on this.

 

Radu could post a basic outline of what he wants to do .. then locks the thread " OMG NO WHY" , this would give ppl time to digest and think about the idea without knee jerk reactions.

After 2 days the thread is unlocked for comments,suggestions. depending on how this goes Radu could then make a fully detailed post about the idea for people to vote on..

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As one of the qualities Entropy mentioned, 100% unbiased.

 

That is how the player advocate system excels, its designed to be 100% biased.

Since its impossible to gather a group of people that speak with some altruism for

the good of the whole (these people don't exist). The player advocate system ensures

you have selected people to trumpet the needs, in a very biased and self interested way,

on behalf of the group.

 

(For instance, playerA is elected manu skill advocate, and only speak on behalf of this skill. It up

to the devs to see 'the big picture', since they are really the only one qualified to do so)

 

It helps to consolidate these desires by a group and one person is responsible for

submitting the groups desires in a clean proposal form. This allows the devs to read it, sans

bitching. It removes the Us vs Them feeling, the developers\players always seem to foster in

these types of games.

 

I don't think this system ever caused elite status, since at a whim of the masses, any elected

player can be instantly demoted from advocate status. Basically if you stop speaking on our behalf, uR FiReD!

 

[As I type this an idiom comes to mind, I think I'm just 'pissing in the wind']

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I am in general agreement with bkc56 (posts # 34, 37 and 39), neverman and conovar. These are not mutually exclusive ideas. The way I see it a group of experienced players/mods/administrators, preferably those who read the invasion channel and forums regularly, serve as advisors to radu. How these advisors would be selected is admittedly a sticking point. The simplest way would be for radu to contact people he knows and trusts to see if they’d be interested in advising him on changes to features or skills they have a particular interest and expertise. This has the problem of radu only choosing people who will agree with him – radu, this is not a slam on you, just an acknowledgment that you are as human as the rest of us. Alternatively, the advisors could be selected/elected by the players but this would quickly dissolve into a nightmare…. campaigns, debates, blah, blah, blah……

 

NOTE: Before the flaming starts, please remember that I am simply presenting one possible solution to an apparent real problem within the EL community and, of course the details aren’t worked out yet....how long do you want this post to be? :P Additionally, the numbers presented here are arbitrary, not set in stone!

 

radu could give us a list of 30 or so names of players/mods/administrators he feels he can work with and he trusts to advise him on game modifications as well as how these changes would be presented to players (a poll, an edict, a surprising new update, etc) Each of the 30 write a short (yes, I do mean a word limit) EL bio, the direction(s) they would like to see EL grow, how or if they would consult with players and bring players ideas and concerns to radu (would they be advocates as robotbob suggested or advise independent of player input/concerns), etc. The players would then “vote” for 10 people they would like to advise radu. I think there should also be an option for “None of the Above” which could be selected for any or all of the 10 “votes” a given player casts so radu could get an idea of how amenable the voting players are to his suggested advisors. The top 10 “vote getters” become the advisors. Including the caveat that each must receive a certain percentage of the total votes is probably too cumbersome to accommodate. The voting could be open for a week so virtually all currently active players would have a chance to vote and know when voting will end; maybe gossip could remind people every time they log on that week that they can register for a forums account and vote.

 

I know radu has the final say on what happens and merely present this compromise as a possible way to satisfy both him and players who what more input in future game changes.

 

Thanks for reading,

EvanMarie in EL

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That is how the player advocate system excels, its designed to be 100% biased.

Since its impossible to gather a group of people that speak with some altruism for

the good of the whole (these people don't exist). The player advocate system ensures

you have selected people to trumpet the needs, in a very biased and self interested way,

on behalf of the group.

 

That won't work, because if you have 20 'representatives' they will not cover an equal amount of players. So for example if you have 7 fighters, 6 harvesters and 7 manufacturers, the decissions might be biased against the ahrvesters, even though probably the harvester representatives cover a lot more per capita than the fighter representatives.

You know that quote: Democracy is 2 wolves and a goat voting what to eat for dinner. It would be even more unfair than voting, because voting allows everyone to say their opinion.

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oh wow , ppl are still arguing about this ?

 

i will say, i agreee with Ateh, neverman, Conavar.... maybe missed some1s post ...

 

Thing is that everything is ok with voting, as it is now. we only need more information about things we vote for. it shouldn`t be only `yes`or `no`there has to be ìf`and `but`.... If ppl could express theyr oppinion only with voting, there is no need to post oppinions, and then get dissagreements and all teh flaming.

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My only concern here is that players are dictating EL development at ALL...as a game thats a good thing..as a business I believe its an incredibly dangerous thing to allow. And that's where we're hitting snags, because, as nice as it is for Radu to take on opinions regarding how players feel about game implementation, he's also allowing us inadvertantly to block his business development as he would wish it to be done.

 

There MUST come a point where the needs of EL as a business exceeds the opinions of long term players. Old customers should never be allowed to block business expansion and development. We dont have that right. We only have the right to express our opinions, not insist that theyre acted on.

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oh wow , ppl are still arguing about this ?

 

i will say, i agreee with Ateh, neverman, Conavar.... maybe missed some1s post ...

 

Thing is that everything is ok with voting, as it is now. we only need more information about things we vote for. it shouldn`t be only `yes`or `no`there has to be ìf`and `but`.... If ppl could express theyr oppinion only with voting, there is no need to post oppinions, and then get dissagreements and all teh flaming.

 

If people need more info than already provided they can ask, yes?

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ask? maybe. but i mean that this info should be be4 voting, and not only for those who has some questions, but for all. Lets say now about those harvesting things. i think that many of us voted NO, just because we do not know how it would be in the game.

 

for me its like. we vote YES. You implement it, and set it to lets say 100 harvestables per hr for ea person :happy: and if we would be bitchin about it, You would just say something like `you voted YES for it, so here you go, dont dare to complayn`

 

I am not saying that it might be the best example, but thats something like worst scenario :whistle:

So i think all needed information should be given before Pool.

 

Or at least more informative options to vote on. like i said before, not only yes\no, but with explanation: `yes, If ..... `, `no, if ..... `

 

Edit: well i read some topics again ... and .... You gave us idea, how it would or should work technically. but not many of us can imagine that without testing it. but that can be our problem :)

But on the other hand, there was so many offers, and You in few cases said , YES it sounds good. So I think its getting hard to understand if You are staying at Your first idea, or You will use some1s like Learners idea... and maybe till this new thing is done it will change 180 degrees ... we do not know that. So thats why its hard to say YES, without any additional info "but`s" and "if`s".

Its always easier to say NO, and keep things like it is, cuz you know how it works :) it can be also psichological thing for ppl, some of us\them are afraid of new things and etc..,.

Edited by Kornholio

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That is how the player advocate system excels, its designed to be 100% biased.

Since its impossible to gather a group of people that speak with some altruism for

the good of the whole (these people don't exist). The player advocate system ensures

you have selected people to trumpet the needs, in a very biased and self interested way,

on behalf of the group.

 

That won't work, because if you have 20 'representatives' they will not cover an equal amount of players. So for example if you have 7 fighters, 6 harvesters and 7 manufacturers, the decissions might be biased against the ahrvesters, even though probably the harvester representatives cover a lot more per capita than the fighter representatives.

You know that quote: Democracy is 2 wolves and a goat voting what to eat for dinner. It would be even more unfair than voting, because voting allows everyone to say their opinion.

 

I think I must not be expressing myself properly. That example is not what I am implying.

 

In this idea (this isn't theory) you have 1 player representing the manufacture skill.

Any ideas to alter change that particular skill must be submitted to the player advocate assigned to that role.

The respresentive in charge of the manu skill WILL be expressing ideas biased towards other skills, he will only

be able to express the desires of that one particular skill.

 

The devs tell the advocate: Won't happen OP, and so on. If its something that unbalances another skill, the advocate

contacts the advocate in charge of that skill and the two groups try to hit a balance with the idea (if they

wish it to be implemented)

 

This isn't citizen democracy, this is represenative democracy, the goat gets his say and his no eat goats lobby already

helped pass the 'DoN't eet teh goawts' law, prior.

 

Personally, I just say, do whatever you wish. Its your project and personally I wouldn't bother with polls.

At its core, polls come down to: (I wish to change the game) replies (OOMFG no WAI don't change eet!)

Regardless what the change may be...It comes down to power exchanges, and people feeling powerless in the

face of change, but I'll forego the epic post on this :happy:

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So councils were tried and failed in the past?

I wonder if there are forum thread to read about it. Radu, you got links or anything?

 

I guess it might be hard enough to pull off setting up a council and having it work right and all.

Perhaps the easiest thing is to use such a council only to gather additional information and help sort things out some. Their opinions would come with links to forum threads which might contain chats in game. After that, Radu could review their input and the forum threads.

 

Of course, that is if we even try a council again.

 

I guess anyone can start a poll, so perhaps if some people decide to make some, it would be good. Some making polls based on chats and feedback they receive.

Really, anyone should be able to bypass a council if they really feel it is needed.

 

Heh. As for being unbiased, I am against the idea of murdering innocents, so that makes me biased against many pkers.....I would represent the newbs or the manufacturers mostly.

Of course, all the council members would need to ask each other for feedback to make sure they are not being biased. That is part of the fun in it. It is how you get an unbiased view.....asking someone who couldn't care less. They might also not even realize how it might affect another skill.

 

Whenever a poll comes up and I see something that only considers the fighters or only considers the harvesters or only considers this or that group, I try to point that out. Please keep in mind how things affect other things regardless of what we do when it comes to decision making.

 

Perhaps we should have a discussion about the criteria of the polls before we make polls. That might help some.

Edited by nathanstenzel

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So councils were tried and failed in the past?

I wonder if there are forum thread to read about it. Radu, you got links or anything?

 

 

Those forums are long gone. The one big problem we had was that some of the people elected didn't stick around or follow through with their responsibilities...so having to keep trying to find someone else is a major pain.

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This topic is very interesting to me. So I'll toss out my 2 cents.

 

I think for a anything like a council to work there would have to be a process not based on players voting to decide who's in. It would have to comprise the game developers and then a group of selected individuals from the game. The selection process I think would work best like this:

 

1. Developers select 5 or so initial player candidates(mod's, skilled, amount of time played whatever, that they trust but maybe don't agree with 100% of the time but have given them good feedback in the past that has not been flaming).

2. Then players can submit a application to be apart of the council for a set period of time say 6 months-1 year (maybe less, maybe until they leave or are voted out).

3. The Candidates that the developers picked go through and fill out the number of places left on the council 20, 50 whatever the number decided is.

4. The applicants that are approved by the candidates are reviewed by the developers and then approved for the council.

5. Council is then in session with their own forum.

 

If a member needs to leave due to personal issues, becomes inactive, or doesn't give useful feedback but rather flames, then they are removed from the council (by a vote of the 5 selected candidates and the developers) and a new player can be chosen from the applicants.

 

This would take a bit to set up but the things the council could then do is help support the Developers in the idea generation stage. If an idea is being considered or a council member suggests an idea it is discussed BEFORE it gets to a poll in general chat. This will help flesh out an idea and when the poll comes up more rounded information of what an idea would do or how it would affect the game has already been included. I think this would lead to less flaming, idk that you can ever prevent all of it, but players would have a better idea of what is actually going to happen and you would have a group of 20-50 educated people on the topic already that can help inform further and taking some of that burden off developers.

 

This also still keeps the voting in general up but I think with more of a possibility of an idea succeeding in a general vote as more information has been worked over before presentation.

 

Applications would need to include some questions like these and I think a form filled out on a web page link would work well:

Your in game name/forum name

How long have you played EL?

How many hours do you play a week? month?

What do you consider to be your main skill/skills?

How long do you plan to be on the council? (6 months, 1 year, until you drag me off kicking and screaming)

Why do you want to be on the council?

What if any background do you bring to the council that you feel is important?

List three in game references that we can contact about you, not all of which are in your current guild if you are in one.

 

Dunno thought I'd throw that out there but I think a popularity vote council would be bad for any game when it comes to implementing new ideas.

 

~edit grammar

Edited by Elf_Ninja

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elf ninja you could do exactly what you just described without a council

 

open up a discusion thread relating to the suggestion but ......

limit responses to only legitimate questions / further suggestions on how to improve the basic idea

 

after that part then open the poll , people can refer back to a flameless thread that contains only Q & A which would make for better reading than 300 opinions and a couple of thread hijacks

 

a policy of leave your opinion at the door would go a long way , this doesnt exclude serious questions or suggestions to improve upon the base idea , and if opinions really do matter they can be aired during the vote after any and all relevant info has been put forward

 

sorry if I sound like I give a damn , it must be the weather

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elf ninja you could do exactly what you just described without a council

 

open up a discusion thread relating to the suggestion but ......

limit responses to only legitimate questions / further suggestions on how to improve the basic idea

 

after that part then open the poll , people can refer back to a flameless thread that contains only Q & A which would make for better reading than 300 opinions and a couple of thread hijacks

 

a policy of leave your opinion at the door would go a long way , this doesnt exclude serious questions or suggestions to improve upon the base idea , and if opinions really do matter they can be aired during the vote after any and all relevant info has been put forward

Somehow this is always the intent but as has been mentioned before, sometimes there is actually a good idea hidden in the junk...Definitely a great policy and one I would love to see happen. Also too people's eyes glaze over when they see novel length posts, maybe make them bullet their ideas/concerns/solutions to make them easier to focus on.

 

sorry if I sound like I give a damn , it must be the weather
I think it's the full moon, actually.

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So councils were tried and failed in the past?

I wonder if there are forum thread to read about it. Radu, you got links or anything?

 

 

Those forums are long gone. The one big problem we had was that some of the people elected didn't stick around or follow through with their responsibilities...so having to keep trying to find someone else is a major pain.

 

 

Possibly, but what about now? Dont tell me you cant find some that are to be trusted, im even sure there are more right now than ever before.

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elf ninja you could do exactly what you just described without a council

 

open up a discusion thread relating to the suggestion but ......

limit responses to only legitimate questions / further suggestions on how to improve the basic idea

 

after that part then open the poll , people can refer back to a flameless thread that contains only Q & A which would make for better reading than 300 opinions and a couple of thread hijacks

 

a policy of leave your opinion at the door would go a long way , this doesnt exclude serious questions or suggestions to improve upon the base idea , and if opinions really do matter they can be aired during the vote after any and all relevant info has been put forward

 

sorry if I sound like I give a damn , it must be the weather

 

You are talking as people can read and follow simple rules.

The reality is that they can't. When I made the depletable resources poll, I had a line with bold text, asking people not to reply within 30 minutes, but 4 people did so (which I banned).

If they can't follow a simple rule like that, how do you expect they can leave their opinions at the door?

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If they can't follow a simple rule like that, how do you expect they can leave their opinions at the door?

Maybe he means we would help them :D

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If they can't follow a simple rule like that, how do you expect they can leave their opinions at the door?
Maybe he means we would help them :D

Or, pick different people. The ones who can read.

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Then they must be totally, 100% objective. They should care about the game as a whole, not about their best interest.

 

Thats by far the biggest problem with this. There just aren't enough players who are both separated enough from the game to make objective choices and close enough to the game to understand the dynamics of it and the dynamics of its players.

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Then they must be totally, 100% objective. They should care about the game as a whole, not about their best interest.

 

Thats by far the biggest problem with this. There just aren't enough players who are both separated enough from the game to make objective choices and close enough to the game to understand the dynamics of it and the dynamics of its players.

I have some difficulty being unbiased when it comes to manu practices, but there are some people who have other ideas and I have gotten to the point where I say "I would prefer doing this and I have heard others prefer doing that...". It takes some time when it comes to practices and alot of patience and open-mindedness.

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