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Mini Harv Events

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I think we need to keep in mind that we're all assuming that the mini-events will remain as they are, and ALL OTHER aspects of the game will never change.

 

If getting rid of AFK harvesting works, then the number of raw materials entering the game might be dramatically reduced. That means that the game could be rebalanced by not requiring as much of these raw materials to level other skills. The net result would be a game that depended less on people sitting around in a cave all day making trips to store while doing something else AFK.

 

I certainly don't agree with everything Ent does, but I have to say that he seems to have a real interest in exploring what makes MMOs work, and what makes a game economy work. If this change does unbalance the game I'm sure we'll see other changes in the future.

 

I think the main point is to try to cut down on farming - whether for gc or $$$. Farming tends to make the most sense when it can be done AFK - or when it can be done with 15 clients open on a single screen.

 

This change impacts farming on the supply side - I think that we'll need other changes to impact it on the demand side. Otherwise we'll just have a technical arms race. EL is not popular enough and so dependent on farming as some other MMOs and that has helped keep mass professional farming out of the game (if it happens now it is a few people doing it - not armies of people in low-wage countries doing it systematically which is a problem on some games). However, if you only control farming on the supply side and the demand remains the same we might start seeing countermeasures - such as modded clients.

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Ok well so far I have seen a lot of suggestions that "might" get considered for the challenge I proposed but in fact they all fail to meet the standards laid down. No one wins by simple fact that theyre all suggestions that are geared towards the mini events themselves and NONE of them have encompassed a way to increase/improve the EL shop sales as WELL as find a way to make the new events livable for those who disliked them so far AND cut down the resource income/stock levels of gc farming alts.

 

Some of you came close though, but missing one of the end results or the other isnt enough. Try harder guys n gals, you're nearly there.

 

In case you haven't noticed, this isn't about the mini events anymore. This is about eliminating AFK harvesting all together and if you think this will only hurt harvesters you are sadly mistaken. When this will be successfully implemented, you will see a vast number of players leaving the game and considering the newbie program, I don't see that easily refilled. Best case the people will adapt, but you will have a permanent shortage of resources.

 

Harv 1-30: normal chance for event to happen

Harv 31-60: Half the chance

Harv 61+ a quarter of the chance

 

 

This way it would hit "harv alts" more than the genuine players, since genuine players will more than likely have a higher harv level

And would stop 100% afk harving but without being to intrusive at higher levels.

Thought about this and while this will work short term, eventually the harv alts will catch up and/or it will create a market for "harv alt character buying".

 

I certainly don't agree with everything Ent does, but I have to say that he seems to have a real interest in exploring what makes MMOs work, and what makes a game economy work. If this change does unbalance the game I'm sure we'll see other changes in the future.

Would've been nice to see a confirmation of that, since several people have already mentioned this early on in the thread.

 

After a few days, the events aren't even that annoying. The annoying parts are where you get 5-6 in a short timespan, but as I understand it, it's purposely done that way, as "evenly spread events" would still allow training + harving.

Edited by RallosZek

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Yes, but in those 2-3 AFK minutes you didn't make money, yes? That's the idea. If you AFK, you should not make money or exp.

 

i agree^^^ even tho i like to get the afk xp

 

just an idea.... keep the mini events but make it so there is no end to the harvesting xp... the reason there is a cap on harvesting is because we were able to harvest afk... if this is not to be made a normal lvl then make it so we get normal xp for it all the time... it will be just like any other normal skill.

 

by the way... i absolutely hate and at the same time kinda like the mini harvesting events... it does make harvest less boring but more frustrating....

Edited by Orick

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Yes, but in those 2-3 AFK minutes you didn't make money, yes? That's the idea. If you AFK, you should not make money or exp.

 

i agree^^^ even tho i like to get the afk xp

 

just an idea.... keep the mini events but make it so there is no end to the harvesting xp... the reason there is a cap on harvesting is because we were able to harvest afk... if this is not to be made a normal lvl then make it so we get normal xp for it all the time... it will be just like any other normal skill.

 

by the way... i absolutely hate and at the same time kinda like the mini harvesting events... it does make harvest less boring but more frustrating....

IF harvest hour was taken away with no changes that would be a REALLY bad idea people would power lvl OA like mad... but make it like att and def where the more lvls you get the lower the xp given

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I think this mostly affects people who are laggy a lot of the time like me. People with good connection can just resume harvesting in less than a second.

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So because the harvesting is the 'engine' of the economy, don't you think that it is even more important to not have it totally AFK?
No, I don't. It takes a huge amount of raw materials to support the economy. Reducing that supply (by making it harder to harvest) will have a significant effect on the economy. Unless an unstated goal is to scale back or reduce the economy I don't think it's an appropriate balance.

 

And why should only the harvesters provide raw goods to the economy? Why not the fighters provide some raw goods as well, such as buying raw stuff from the NPC with their gold drops?
Because people optimize their game-play to best reach their goals. NPC prices are to high for raw materials, and fighters would rather use their gc to buy finished goods (HEs, SRs), and fancy toys (armor, weapons).

 

For example, silver ore costs 10gc from the NPC (according to CEL site). So an HE would cost 20gc plus the flowers and food. An HE is around 7gc (according to TrinityBot). So 20+gc for 1 or 21gc for 3. No, fighters are not going to be buying raw materials.

 

So again, unless there is a goal to scale back the entire game economy by reducing the flow of raw materials to the other skills, we should not change the current balance of harvesting by making it harder to obtain them.

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Ok well so far I have seen a lot of suggestions that "might" get considered for the challenge I proposed but in fact they all fail to meet the standards laid down. No one wins by simple fact that theyre all suggestions that are geared towards the mini events themselves and NONE of them have encompassed a way to increase/improve the EL shop sales as WELL as find a way to make the new events livable for those who disliked them so far AND cut down the resource income/stock levels of gc farming alts.

 

Some of you came close though, but missing one of the end results or the other isnt enough. Try harder guys n gals, you're nearly there.

 

In case you haven't noticed, this isn't about the mini events anymore. This is about eliminating AFK harvesting all together and if you think this will only hurt harvesters you are sadly mistaken. When this will be successfully implemented, you will see a vast number of players leaving the game and considering the newbie program, I don't see that easily refilled. Best case the people will adapt, but you will have a permanent shortage of resources.

In actual fact it is entirely related to the elimination of AFK harvesting. The mini events were created for that purpose as well as to reduce the resource income and the storage stock levels gamewide, hence my challenge....

 

 

Feel free to post something that you feel would cover all the bases and impove things all around on this challenge, Ralloszek, I think someone should be able to figure a good compromise that does all the things I stated are needed in one easy solution. Or we can wait to see Radu's intentions if you find its too difficult to post up a constructive idea to help here, no biggy.

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making everyone register one single character as thier main would be enough to stop the AFK harvesting for $ and the over abundance of raw minerals

 

why ? because although you would still be able to have alts , if those alts are seen to be doing nothing but harvesting and selling for GC it would be a fair assumption that they intend to ell the GC for $$

 

after all why does a character with 75 harvesting / MM perk / max p c and no other skills doing with 100s 1000s of GC apart from planning to sell it ? Oh yeh thats right they are planning to reset once they hit 100 harvest and have 2 mill GC because thats how EVERYONE does it, meh

 

My suggestion is to make everyone register ONE main character , this is the one they want to play on the most - they can have alts but if those alts are harvesting alts they get permanent IP banned on thier nice shiny main to , no dicking with a month or maybe 5 weeks just a straight out lifetime IP ban

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From a Newb trainer, here is my experience.

When I harvest yew, the events are not annoying at the least. (except for the harvest visual effect still going)

When harvesting low level items, you get alot of events.

As is the usual, I got a 0 alchemy up to 8 alchemy via an FE making event, but seem to have spent less money on this one somehow. Not sure of the reason of this.

On a cotton event, well.....my event was not organized very well, but people seemed to still be happy.

 

I think the mini events, are sure to annoy people that are not used to them, but I see how they can be useful to stop AFK mining. Sadly, that has been a past-time and alot of people did say they prefer this game because they could AFK, but oh well. If the game loses some folk, it won't matter as much as long as the new folk stay to replace them. That could increase the demand for some items that need more buyers.

 

In short, I am neutral on the mini-events. I don't really care if they stay or go. They are better than one-click harvest though. One click harvest would allow for macros and this would not make a macro a good idea.

Edited by nathanstenzel

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I kinda think you are wrong here,

 

EL is not really popular compared to other MMO's such as Knight Online, WoW etc. And you are talking about losing some folks who are annoyed coz of new mini events but can you guarantee the new folks will be happy with something thats stops their harvesting once in 10 seconds? I doubt they will.

 

-Kaddy

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making everyone register one single character as thier main would be enough to stop the AFK harvesting for $ and the over abundance of raw minerals

 

This would seem a good idea and one that wouldn’t penalize all of the people who are just working hard on building their own skills. Tailoring takes an enormous amount of gc and harvested materials, which I try to gather entirely myself, but with these mini events it is just too frustrating/boring and the fun is lost.

Edited by Boo Boo

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I kinda think you are wrong here,

 

EL is not really popular compared to other MMO's such as Knight Online, WoW etc. And you are talking about losing some folks who are annoyed coz of new mini events but can you guarantee the new folks will be happy with something thats stops their harvesting once in 10 seconds? I doubt they will.

 

-Kaddy

 

The new folks wont know what to not be happy about... and the reason WoW and Knights are so popular are, for at least WoW, is because its advertised to those who dont go looking for another game and because the graphics are better and the only reason that is, is because you have to pay to play that monthly i think... and same with most others...

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I have a question for the players claiming that: "Omfg, resource shortage".

Tell me, was there any time you weren't able to buy enough swords? Or enough armor? Or HEs?

Or by resource shortage you mean: "I won't be able to gain 20 levels in potion in just 3 weeks"?

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But (as you ask) why was the previous balance right for harvesting (and manufacturing)? Because of harvesting's place in the skills tree and the nature of the game which requires massive amounts of harvesting to support the skills build on it. I believe that justifies a higher level of automatic harvesting (afk) than would be permitted by (for example) manufacturing.

 

So because the harvesting is the 'engine' of the economy, don't you think that it is even more important to not have it totally AFK?

 

Already harvesting is not totally AFK. I was under the impression that that was why there are the existing (before update) harvesting events and why you have to go to storage to drop off your harvested load, then go back to what you want to harvest.

 

And why should only the harvesters provide raw goods to the economy? Why not the fighters provide some raw goods as well, such as buying raw stuff from the NPC with their gold drops?

 

Most of the fighters and aspiring fighters that I know say that they use almost all of their gold drops to fix armor or replace destroyed armor or to buy HEs and SRs from other players or bots. Do many fighters have that much gc lying around without buying it with RL money from goldfarming alts?

 

The fighters do MUCH more work than the harvesters, and there is considerably more risk involved. They actually have to be there every second of it (except for PvPing), and they don't complain.

 

I don't see how you can say that fighters do more work than harvesters. Unless you buy everything you need (which is a massive amount of gc that the average player just doesn't have) you have to harvest for everything you want to do. Want to go fight without buying your materials? Go harvest silver, mums, blue quartz, blue star flowers. If you make your own vials add regular quartz and red roses, red snaps and sulfur for FEs. Lets make some creature food! I want to add 1 level to my mule. OMG I need 32k flowers (and various other bits) for just that one level. It might 'just' be harvesting, but it leads to a ton of 'work' being done for other skills.

 

Of course there is more risk involved in fighting! Its fighting! :medieval: If you go out and slay a dragon and I stay in and make a tunic, one of us is going to have some cuts and burns by the end of the day. While there is more risk involved in fighting there is also more attention required to fighting. You have to restore and flee and keep your mana up. Depending on which map you are on, you may also have to worry about multi mobs. Fighting takes strategy and attention, harvesting takes...clicking and watching. Kind of obvious which is the more fun activity. I much prefer fighting to harvesting but because I want to use my gc for other purchases (like more rostos to burn in instances! Or a shiny halberd so I can take a whack at Lenny if he wanders by.) I choose to harvest and mix all my own supplies and I know many other people who do this too.

 

I don't understand why you are 'classing' everyone. From my experience with the game, talking to many different people as I play, it seems to me that there are only a handful of players who focus JUST on fighting, or JUST on harvesting (well, except the gold farmers i guess. But for that argument, please see my earlier suggestion of per day, per player gc caps on NPCs). Many many of the people that I talk to and play with are trying to build characters with more than one focus. There are alot of fighter/potters, or fighter/manuers, and every possible combination of skills. Lately it seems that being an all-arounder is the thing to try. Anyone who is trying to focus on more than one skill, and especially the people trying to level all thier skills, HAS to do tons of harvesting. As the game stands now, anything you make, mix or manu needs a mass amount of ingredients, so hours of harvesting are required and whether you are clicking once every five minutes or once every five seconds harvesting is boring. At least if I only have to check my character once every 3-5 minutes I can do other things in between.

 

In short, fighting is exciting, mixing and manuing are engaging, harvesting is boring. Harvesting is absolutely vital to advance in the game, therefore you have to spend many hours harvesting. If you are forced to stay at your screen constantly for all those harvesting hours, how many people are going to also have the few hours it takes to mix everything? Plenty of people won't even make to the end of their harvesting endeavors because of boredom. Who wants to play a game that is only fun for small chunks of time?

 

I understand that there are multiple reasons for these new mini events and in the last few posts the focus has been shifting from gold farmers to afk harvesters. I think 3 things can be done to greatly reduce these problems and also keep legitimate players happier.

 

 

1. Slightly reduce the frequency of the mini events or have something (like a harvester med or some other type of med) that can reduce the mini event frequency. Or make the mini events start after harvesting xp runs out. (As the game stands now, unless you want to spend hours and hours just sitting and clicking or unless you have the gc to buy everything, semi 'afk' harvesting is almost a necessity for any other type of play.)

 

2. Put a daily cap on the gc that flower shop NPCs and titanium buying NPCs pay out per player. (which I know can be abused by simply creating more alts to harv with, which is why #3 would be needed.)

 

3. For a few weeks or more, crack down on obvious gold farming alts. Players with nothing but harvest levels and unbalanced trades. (If this is a practice that is hurting the game economy and the general spirit of the game, I don't see why it should be tolerated in the first place. Also, as many people have admitted to selling gc with alts and using the RL money in the EL shop to buy things for their main, I don't understand why this behavior is not covered under the multi play rule.)

 

 

As with all the posters before me, this post is opinion and suggestion. I hope you can see that I am trying to put forth helpful information along with what I hope are also helpful suggestions. I'd like to say again that I think it is great that you have created a game that so many people enjoy and I think it is a shame that people are trying to exploit your work.

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can say there is a shortage on certain items, its a pain in the ass to find HEs

but recently i found someone who makes them for me on demand, guessing its still a pain in the ass if you buy from market.

 

my alt kinda classifies as a goldfarmer (not selling for $$ though) and i dont find it hard at all to harv with the mini-events, switching window from main to alt only takes a second

being overloaded makes it harder though, cause then i need more time to mapchange, walk to sto and back

 

edit: so you could make harvestables weigh more, or go for an easier solution, drop Gc coming into the game by NPC, and shift it to increase monster drops. taking away their customers

Edited by Sqwurl

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Already harvesting is not totally AFK. I was under the impression that that was why there are the existing (before update) harvesting events and why you have to go to storage to drop off your harvested load, then go back to what you want to harvest.

Not TOTALLY AFK, but 90% is AFKing, especially since we have map walk (which most of the other MMOs don't, btw).

This change also doesn't make it totally NON AFK, it just makes it less AFK (maybe 60% AFK)

 

Most of the fighters and aspiring fighters that I know say that they use almost all of their gold drops to fix armor or replace destroyed armor or to buy HEs and SRs from other players or bots. Do many fighters have that much gc lying around without buying it with RL money from goldfarming alts?

They are bullshitting. The armor and weapon breaks are very rare, and mostly happens during PKing or invasions. Training on monsters doesn't require really good gear. In fact, some yeti gold farmers can make up to 300Kgc a day profit.

 

 

I don't see how you can say that fighters do more work than harvesters. Unless you buy everything you need (which is a massive amount of gc that the average player just doesn't have) you have to harvest for everything you want to do.

What I meant was "fighting is harder than harvesting, so it should produce more money".

 

I don't understand why you are 'classing' everyone. From my experience with the game, talking to many different people as I play, it seems to me that there are only a handful of players who focus JUST on fighting, or JUST on harvesting (well, except the gold farmers i guess.

It's not 'classing', it's 'professioning'.

 

In short, fighting is exciting, mixing and manuing are engaging, harvesting is boring. Harvesting is absolutely vital to advance in the game, therefore you have to spend many hours harvesting. If you are forced to stay at your screen constantly for all those harvesting hours, how many people are going to also have the few hours it takes to mix everything? Plenty of people won't even make to the end of their harvesting endeavors because of boredom. Who wants to play a game that is only fun for small chunks of time?

If you have fun all the time, it eventually becomes boring. It's the same as eating a good food every day, eventually you get bored by it. You need variation too, you need to work for the fun.

 

1. Slightly reduce the frequency of the mini events

Yes, I am planning to do that.

 

2. Put a daily cap on the gc that flower shop NPCs and titanium buying NPCs pay out per player. (which I know can be abused by simply creating more alts to harv with, which is why #3 would be needed.)

As you said, that won't really work. it would only affect the honest players.

 

3. For a few weeks or more, crack down on obvious gold farming alts. Players with nothing but harvest levels and unbalanced trades. (If this is a practice that is hurting the game economy and the general spirit of the game, I don't see why it should be tolerated in the first place. Also, as many people have admitted to selling gc with alts and using the RL money in the EL shop to buy things for their main, I don't understand why this behavior is not covered under the multi play rule.)

I am not going to reiterate the reasons why it won't work.

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1. Slightly reduce the frequency of the mini events

 

Yes, I am planning to do that.

 

 

I haven't had complaints on these new thingies, but thank you for this either way. I think it'll still serve its purpose at a lower rate. :medieval:

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"Some" how much of the few yeti trainers? how much are that compared to all fighters?

 

and 300k gc is bullshit though, that was only possible in Hulda, and the only one who got that much was Marro, he got harmed and broded there alot, now no1 goes there anymore

if you were right and it was as easy as you say, 300k a day, then the economy wouldnt be as it is now.

your just saying 1 or 2 made 300k gc a day in the past, and suppose everyone can.

even then that 300k is for 2 persons, they dont share with the majority who cant farm yeti/AC in Hulda

Edited by Sqwurl

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"Some" how much of the few yeti trainers? how much are that compared to all fighters?

 

and 300k gc is bullshit though, that was only possible in Hulda, and the only one who got that much was Marro, he got harmed and broded there alot, now no1 goes there anymore

 

You can still make 100Kgc a day from fighting not in Hulda, yes?

And don't tell me you use more than that in broken armor and HPs.

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Not by training, but by 'farming' yetis. How many yetis can you kill per hour?

 

around 90 or so, with cutlass and BP cloak, nmt perk

getting 8k Gc every round, ~400 bones which would be close to 9k gc every round.

 

but then again most fighters arent on a lvl where they can farm yeti, they are on fluffs - mountain chims

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1. Slightly reduce the frequency of the mini events
Yes, I am planning to do that.

I think this is a great step at restoring a better balance within harvesting.

 

I also really like the idea posted above that another way to restore the balance would be to increase or remove the hourly harvesting experience cap to help compensate for the increased work in harvesting with mini-events.

 

After all, you made a couple statements above about how harvesting shouldn't be any easier (afk'ish) than other skills (like manufacturing). Would that not imply it should also be free from experience caps like other skills?

 

If the afk nature of harvesting is reduced or removed, then experience cap should be increased or removed. Keep the effort and benefit in balance.

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1. Slightly reduce the frequency of the mini events

Yes, I am planning to do that.

Nooo, mini events are fine as they are now, just fix the eyecandy.

If you really feel an urge to tweak them you could make them give exp way more often than gcs - it'll be better from "roleplaying" point of view (it has nothing to do with me liking that extra exp, absolutely nothing).

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