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awhlrgreat

Consumers vs. Manuers?

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The only way to properly counter it is to limit the harvestible quantity of materials per day, and players don't want that.

 

I don't see how this would fix the problem?

 

Currently prices of ores are rising. This means the supply lowered or there is more demand. Since the first possibility isn't possible in this game there is only the 2nd one left. Now if you want limited harvests you also insert the first problem. So the effect would be even worse and prices will go much higher.

 

Due to a fact that the best routes to the most popular harvestables have been changed and some shortcuts/locations removed, less people are willing to harvest while more people are willing to buy harvestables. So there is both lower supply and more demand. Also I have impression that consumption per head is rising (more advanced players use more resources and not that many new players are joining to compensate). So my method for fixing a problem would be to modify harvestables locations for those which prices are rising (silver, coal, iron mostly) to allow mine-sto trips withing comparable time and number of map changes as they were before price raise.

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Due to a fact that the best routes to the most popular harvestables have been changed and some shortcuts/locations removed, less people are willing to harvest while more people are willing to buy harvestables. So there is both lower supply and more demand. Also I have impression that consumption per head is rising (more advanced players use more resources and not that many new players are joining to compensate). So my method for fixing a problem would be to modify harvestables locations for those which prices are rising (silver, coal, iron mostly) to allow mine-sto trips withing comparable time and number of map changes as they were before price raise.

 

So , the problem of overproduction can be fixed by encouraging overproduction? Kind of like what Bush and Obama are thinking, that in order to fix the economy we are in now, we need to borrow even more?

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Perhaps recycling would help with some of the metal ore prices. We could then have people who dedicate themselves to buying degraded and broken gear for recycling.

 

Entropy, when the time for recycling comes, will you still have it be via a recycling plant like you previously mentioned or via players using the mix window and/or inventory use-with combos?

 

Are the plans for recycling still far off in the future?

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So , the problem of overproduction can be fixed by encouraging overproduction?

How can the problem be overproduction? I thought overproduction led to reduced costs because of excessive supply. We're seeing higher costs, not lower. Is there something I'm missing?

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The solution is quite simple

 

STOP BUYING things you think are overpriced.

 

Gather the ings and ask someone to mix it for you.

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Due to a fact that the best routes to the most popular harvestables have been changed and some shortcuts/locations removed, less people are willing to harvest while more people are willing to buy harvestables. So there is both lower supply and more demand. Also I have impression that consumption per head is rising (more advanced players use more resources and not that many new players are joining to compensate). So my method for fixing a problem would be to modify harvestables locations for those which prices are rising (silver, coal, iron mostly) to allow mine-sto trips withing comparable time and number of map changes as they were before price raise.

 

So , the problem of overproduction can be fixed by encouraging overproduction? Kind of like what Bush and Obama are thinking, that in order to fix the economy we are in now, we need to borrow even more?

 

This idea I was thinking about putting in suggestions, but I may as well just put it here.

 

How about a special day where players get 10 or 20% more xp for mixing in a school?

 

Could see quite a lot more gc's sinking in the form of leather helms, etc.

 

There could be downsides about this also that I am not aware of, just a thought

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Perhaps recycling would help with some of the metal ore prices. We could then have people who dedicate themselves to buying degraded and broken gear for recycling.

 

Entropy, when the time for recycling comes, will you still have it be via a recycling plant like you previously mentioned or via players using the mix window and/or inventory use-with combos?

 

Are the plans for recycling still far off in the future?

If not recycling, why not make it so Tankel want some of the useless/overproduced items to repair the damaged items.

One week maybe 5 leather helmet to repair your tit chain, the next week maybe 10 fox scarves.

The more expensive items you want to repair, the more expensive items do he want.

Could be used to get rid of some of the books dropped a lot.

And if you don't want to pay what he want this week, you have to wait to see what he want next week.

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The issue with higher armor and weapon cost has to do with rare ings (Binding stones/enriched essence etc.) not the cost of minerals and ores. There also isn't a rift between manuer's and players who use the items.

 

I can control the price of hydro bars by harvesting and making ings. Wolf bars are the same with the exception of the serp stone, which I have no control over. I occassionaly get a rare stone when harvesting but not that often. Also the way the rates of making rare essences are manipulated by Radu even with an arti cape I don't make many of those either

 

So if I want to manu armor/weps or craft a COL or COM I have to buy the rare essences or stones needed.

 

I decided to put those skills on hold long ago because I personally refused to put items in the game less than my cost

and I refused to pay high prices for rare ess and stones and have been saving the ones I get.

 

My other option to get these is to purchase in the shop? What 's the incentive to pay RL $ to make an item that sells for less than I could sell the ings by themsleves?

 

The only way to drive prices down for armors/weapons is to reduce the cost of rare ings. When there is an abundant supply of these in the game they sell for less.

 

I think there is also a correlation to the EL economy and the RL economy. When the RL economy went bad, players quit buying as many rare ess/stones in shop to re-sell in game for GC. Radu said his shop business declined due to the RL economy. So he tweaked the rates of making these items in an effort to get more players to buy from shop. The result of the tweaks and people spending less has made these items more rare and their price has gone up. (Supply & Demand) Anyone familiar with the De Beers' control over the diamond market?

 

For me it is actually a blessing because it finally made some people wake up and smell the coffee and to sell items for what it cost them to make. Now I will get into manufacturing again because I can break even.

 

My concern is what will happen when the cost of rare ings goes down again. Will prices revert to being below cost again?

 

The other factor is more people have leveled their skills and can make Steel and Titanium armors and Great swords. These are the armors/weps that special items come from. With the addition of saving stones to the game people are more willing to risk a loss in an effort to make a special. When times were good and rare ess/stones were plentiful the market became saturated and prices were low beacause some mauer's/crafters were willing to sell for less than their cost. Now that isn't the case!

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The only way to drive prices down for armors/weapons is to reduce the cost of rare ings. When there is an abundant supply of these in the game they sell for less.

 

WTF?

Did you even bother to read the first few posts of the 'manuers strike' thread?

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The only way to drive prices down for armors/weapons is to reduce the cost of rare ings. When there is an abundant supply of these in the game they sell for less.

 

WTF?

Did you even bother to read the first few posts of the 'manuers strike' thread?

 

 

I am not exactly sure what you are referring to.

 

What I am trying to imply is that the only ings that change in price and availablity that manuer's can't control are rare stones and enriched essences. As their price fluctuates so should the cost of manufactured products proportionally. As far as I am concerned I am happy with the price increase and don't see a problem.

Edited by Ednovel

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As far as I am concerned I am happy with the price increase and don't see a problem.

LOL

So you are happy with the price increase, but you suggest something to bring the prices down??

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As far as I am concerned I am happy with the price increase and don't see a problem.

LOL

So you are happy with the price increase, but you suggest something to bring the prices down??

 

 

If the cost of enriched essences and rare stones decrease so will the price I charge for weapons and armors. They are the only variable that I can't control. However, if rare stones and enriched essence price drops and players sell the end product below the cost of ingredients I will not lock step with them. I will stop manufacturing and crafting except for players who provide me ings as I refuse to put items in the game at less than my cost.

 

Based on what Holar and others have stated I don't expect end product prices to be below cost regardless if rare stones and enriched essences are priced high or low. Manuer's will adjust their product prices accordingly.

Edited by Ednovel

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Due to a fact that the best routes to the most popular harvestables have been changed and some shortcuts/locations removed, less people are willing to harvest while more people are willing to buy harvestables. So there is both lower supply and more demand. Also I have impression that consumption per head is rising (more advanced players use more resources and not that many new players are joining to compensate). So my method for fixing a problem would be to modify harvestables locations for those which prices are rising (silver, coal, iron mostly) to allow mine-sto trips withing comparable time and number of map changes as they were before price raise.

 

So , the problem of overproduction can be fixed by encouraging overproduction? Kind of like what Bush and Obama are thinking, that in order to fix the economy we are in now, we need to borrow even more?

 

 

So , the problem of overproduction can be fixed by encouraging overproduction?

How can the problem be overproduction? I thought overproduction led to reduced costs because of excessive supply. We're seeing higher costs, not lower. Is there something I'm missing?

 

 

The only overproduced thing in EL are gc's. So-called "manuers overproduction" had nothing to do with producing more than market can absorb, it was about producing at the cost higher than the price of final product.

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I still can't see the point of this thread - prices will always be what people are willing to pay for an item, if resources are abundant prices will fall, if resources are rare prices will rise (economy 101). I can't see any rift between consumers and manuers, and I can't see any problem in prices rising for goods like HE. If the price is high enough to lure people into making HEs it will fall again, and if not the price is probably just right. If there is enough gc in the game to be wasted on hoping to get a rare great sword, so be it - the price won't fall below the magical NPC price (this will prevent newbies from running around with Orc Slayers), and another hundred of them in any storage won't hurt anyone either (and will prevent the price rising). If that's the favourite money sink for some players, so be it.

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I still can't see the point of this thread - prices will always be what people are willing to pay for an item, if resources are abundant prices will fall, if resources are rare prices will rise (economy 101). I can't see any rift between consumers and manuers, and I can't see any problem in prices rising for goods like HE. If the price is high enough to lure people into making HEs it will fall again, and if not the price is probably just right. If there is enough gc in the game to be wasted on hoping to get a rare great sword, so be it - the price won't fall below the magical NPC price (this will prevent newbies from running around with Orc Slayers), and another hundred of them in any storage won't hurt anyone either (and will prevent the price rising). If that's the favourite money sink for some players, so be it.

 

:):medieval::)

 

The point basically is that firstly some people decided to waste gc's in the way described above, then they have informed us officially on this forum that they will no longer do that. That's all I guess.

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Major problem is that manuers want to make those rare great sword so they overproduce basic great swords which cannot be sold at ings price and ings price is going more and more up. So to solve that there should be some changes: to lower produce rate of rare great swords so manuers lose their moral to produce them because they will lose more gc, to add formula for making rare great swords so they need xx basic sowrds + some stones, etc. to be more accessable (but it would lead to evan higher ings prices and less ings would be accassable), to just sell them via el shop. Well but will all of this it won't change problem of high prices of hydro/wolf/steel bars or even harv resources, to solve that ... idk. If you take global view its just loophole, there is no way out, only way is to dump prices and to do that i doubt there is ppl who are willing to do that. So whole burden is on Entropy :)

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It seems that many people still live under delusion, that manuers are producing like 10 great swords a day. If you will READ CAREFULLY the Manufacturers strike thread, you will then see, that many top manuers produce like 2-3 great swords per WEEK! Seriously, this is very far from mass production...

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Yes. Do check out the Manufactuer's Strike Thread. The top manufacturer of the game has said that he is no longer doing this. Many have agreed that it would be foolish to do so.

Check out my prices in my signature and you will see that I don't believe in giving lower prices than ingredient cost.

Of course, if people have a problem paying 32K gc for a great sword, it is buyer vs ingredient cost. I try to base all of my prices on ingredient cost.

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It seems that many people still live under delusion, that manuers are producing like 10 great swords a day. If you will READ CAREFULLY the Manufacturers strike thread, you will then see, that many top manuers produce like 2-3 great swords per WEEK! Seriously, this is very far from mass production...

 

Another misconception people are living under as well...is that the sword you see for sale on market may not have even been MADE using the currently expensive ingredients. For all WE know, it coulda been made when bindings were 6k each and there was a plentiful supply ingame. It's probably a safe bet the sword/armour etc you see advertised by a high level manufacturer IS freshly made but still not 100% guaranteed.

 

We just assume this and presume they are charging current prices because of high ings cost.

 

What really amuses me is all the people that claim binding stones are rare enough to charge 8-9k for them because they claim they had to mine 60-100k ores to find the bloody thing. Crazy. I mine 8k Iron ores and it guarantees me 3 binding stones. Why? Simple, I trade the ores for the stones on market, been quite successful so far too. If I apply that to any ingredient, all it would cost me to get the ingredients for any sword or armour would be the cost of pickaxes and a few HE to heal from radon/walls, and a little time.

 

On a separate note, this post was created using the new Scratch and Sniff lemon zest font. Try it out!

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As many of you have noticed the EL economy is one of the best rollercoaster rides anywhere. Up and down without pattern and my theory is that the main cause of this is because of the rift between manuers and the people buying those products. However as stated ingame by uga the problem isn't the manuers and the problem isn't people buying to low, the problem is the ing's are priced to high. Any solution to this problem however requires not one or two or even a group of people cooperating but the entire el community. The alternative is that ing's prices stay high, manuer's price their items high and consumers can't afford to buy like they use to and the economy goes down, making it a "rich man/womens" economy. Those who can afford to buy buy a lot and make the item scarce.

 

So i want to hear ideas, what can be done, what should be done what isn't being done. This shouldn't be a controversial topic and doesn't require any flames, if i've offended anyone i appologize but this is an increasinly serious problem and i think its time we work to stop it. For as long as i can remember greatswords have cost 21k at the expense of the manu'er who most time pays 30+k for the ings. Most greatswords have 5+ ingreds, if we cut 1k off the price of each of the major ingreds that lowers the whole price quite a bit. I'd hate to see prices raised just as much as i'd hate to see people sto manufacturing items.

 

So the problem isn't between the 'consumers and manuers', which your title implies. "the problem is the ing's are priced to high." which you've mentioned further on in your post. But the thread kinda focuses on the PRICE of great swords and the cost of the INGs? Is this discussion specifically about great sword INGs?

 

Thnx :P

EDIT: spelling

Edited by marack

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<CLIP>

Another misconception people are living under as well...is that the sword you see for sale on market may not have even been MADE using the currently expensive ingredients. For all WE know, it coulda been made when bindings were 6k each and there was a plentiful supply ingame. It's probably a safe bet the sword/armour etc you see advertised by a high level manufacturer IS freshly made but still not 100% guaranteed.

 

We just assume this and presume they are charging current prices because of high ings cost.

<CLIP>

 

When people get bargain price binding stones or when the price of binding stones go up, they will most likely consider the price it takes to Replace the binding stone and not the price it cost them in the first place. If the price drops, they will probably consider the price it cost to buy it. Whichever is more, the cost of purchase or the cost of replacement would most likely be the one that they use to calculate the price off of. I doubt anyone would be thinking "Wow! I got a great deal on this binding stone! I think I will charge less for the finished good that I use to make from this!". Not too likely at all. They are more likely to go "ChaChing! This saving will get me more profit from the sword or whatever I make from it!".

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So , the problem of overproduction can be fixed by encouraging overproduction?

How can the problem be overproduction? I thought overproduction led to reduced costs because of excessive supply. We're seeing higher costs, not lower. Is there something I'm missing?

 

Quesar, the over-production of finished goods leads to demand for more base ingredients which if the production of those base ingredients can't keep up, you will have a problem. That overproduction of finished goods is the topic. The prices of the finished goods should not be less than the cost of the ingredients, but it sadly has been for a while. I believe that it is improving some though as many threads have been talking about this and people have slowly been taught about such a simple concept as ingredient price + labor price = fnished good price. It is a lesson that it seems some desperately needed.

 

These higher prices for finished goods is a good thing. If the ingredients drop in price, maybe the finished goods will too, but I certainly hope they don't drop lower than the ingredient price again or there will be alot of cussing to be done.

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Perhaps a solution to this problems could be to increase the amount of non rare materials needed to make the great swords? (and other rare products?)

 

Cutlass example:

 

2 serp stones and 1 binding

but approx 250 steel bars * 8 = 2000 iron ore and small amount of tit ore.

 

But do you get 1 binding stone for every 2k iron ore. No far from it.

 

So should more raw materials be needed? What do you think?

Im not sure if this has been suggested before and the conclusion was its a crap idea. If so just ignore me then lol :)

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More raw materials would make it more expensive again, and prices of raw materials will rise too.

 

There isn't an excess of raw materials, so there is no problem at that side.

Edited by Cycloonx

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Perhaps a solution to this problems could be to increase the amount of non rare materials needed to make the great swords? (and other rare products?)

 

Cutlass example:

 

2 serp stones and 1 binding

but approx 250 steel bars * 8 = 2000 iron ore and small amount of tit ore.

 

But do you get 1 binding stone for every 2k iron ore. No far from it.

 

So should more raw materials be needed? What do you think?

Im not sure if this has been suggested before and the conclusion was its a crap idea. If so just ignore me then lol :)

 

The raw materials are fine. The only recipies that need to be adjusted in the game are the ones that used EFE and serpent stones before the frequency of them were drastically reduced. The reduction led to the downfall of the titanium long sword recipe and the enchanted (fire/ice/magic/thermal) blades. The new ti short recipies were kept in step with the old recipies which means they are not going to be made much except by collectors as well. Of course, I will still have some collectors pay me full price for some enchanted blades once in a blue moon. They manage it because their characters are rolling in the gc.

 

The logic of the people making and buying the blades was an issue and not the availability of ingredients.

It does not matter what you make or what the price of ingredients are.

What does matter is that if it costs someone X to make something, they need X + profit.

Some buyers did not want to respect this, some sellers somehow settled for X - loss and some sellers that did not want to sell for X - loss got pissed and made a move to correct the issue.

 

My business with my flexibility in payment methods has gotten me X + profit even if it is not all in gc and I don't really need the items at the moment. I will later sell those items at the price I calculate to be profitable though. Some have even paid me 100% in gc for my goods too. The "strike" (should really be called common sense) is going well. We just need to have the rest introduced to common sense as well.

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