Consumers vs. Manuers?

[awhlrgreat]

As many of you have noticed the EL economy is one of the best rollercoaster rides anywhere. Up and down without pattern and my theory is that the main cause of this is because of the rift between manuers and the people buying those products. However as stated ingame by uga the problem isn't the manuers and the problem isn't people buying to low, the problem is the ing's are priced to high. Any solution to this problem however requires not one or two or even a group of people cooperating but the entire el community. The alternative is that ing's prices stay high, manuer's price their items high and consumers can't afford to buy like they use to and the economy goes down, making it a "rich man/womens" economy. Those who can afford to buy buy a lot and make the item scarce.

 

So i want to hear ideas, what can be done, what should be done what isn't being done. This shouldn't be a controversial topic and doesn't require any flames, if i've offended anyone i appologize but this is an increasinly serious problem and i think its time we work to stop it. For as long as i can remember greatswords have cost 21k at the expense of the manu'er who most time pays 30+k for the ings. Most greatswords have 5+ ingreds, if we cut 1k off the price of each of the major ingreds that lowers the whole price quite a bit. I'd hate to see prices raised just as much as i'd hate to see people sto manufacturing items.

[i_am_indian]

i'd say the reason most ings are priced high is because they are difficult to get, especially for lower levels like myself

[awhlrgreat]

alright, so difficulty to get is a fair concern. What makes what ingredients difficult to get, other than the obvious ones like wolf ore and bars

[Infamous]

difficulty isnt a problem imo, just read the books, set nexus and ask what the best harv spot is.

nothing hard about sitting on your ass reading forums while afk harvesting

 

(i have a barely 30's alt, with no problems at all getting anywhere to get what i need, without MM)

Edited March 8, 2009 by Sqwurl

[bkc56]

Entropy has 100% control over any potential profit points by setting the NPC buy prices. If he wanted greater swords (for example) to be worth 25K he'd set an NPC to buy them for that and no one would sell for less. The NPC price becomes the value "floor" for the item.

 

I guess if he wanted manu'ed (and crafted and engineered, etc) goods to have a guaranteed profit he's set the NPC prices accordingly. Since they aren't they're at the mercy of standard supply/demand curves. And given the artificial pressure of mass-production to level (something that doesn't exist in this form in a real marketplace) there will always be an abundant supply of produced items. And since 20K is better than 0K (while waiting for a non-existent buyer at 25K) there will always be people selling at a small loss rather than not selling at all.

 

Sorry, no solutions, just my take on the nature of the problem.

[Gilrain]

there is no problem. price fluctuations are totally normal, the market is functioning as well as before.

And btw manuers are customers and customers are manuers, there is no division.

[Segor]

This game has always been about working for things.

You can get low experience rates with low loss or sometimes gc profit from manufacturing or even training or you can get a lot of experience losing a lot of gc.

What you can't expect is someone that is low on gc to waste K's of it to get high end items for a low price.

Play the game, gather some items and use them when you get the levels or make friends to help you with it, has worked for years.

 

PS: sorry if I offended anyone

[forever]

Manufacturing is like tailoring, expensive as fuck to level and pays you nothing in the end.

 

The only time it's useful is if you do almost all your ingrediants yourself. IE: 2 hydro bars by yourself for a titanium shield or tit/steel greaves.

 

The ore prices are getting stupid imo, but they don't care they make more money if theys ell for higher prices.

 

The gc cost looks small if you buy 1k loads etc, but when your like me who buys 20k+ silver that extra .5gc adds up a LOT and makes the profit a load of bull.

 

Harvesting yes, it always makes gc no matter what. BUT that doesnt' mean the other skills that I can work my ass off to level shouldn't give me a bit of GC profit.

[nathanstenzel]

It is amazing just how many threads say the same things. It really is. Economy 101 is a recent thread of 300+ posts.

I think some keys are for harvesters to charge no more than the weight of the item, fighters to charge just as much as manufacturers for their drops and for people to accept one item they need for another. I have struck a deal to trade sulfur and FE to a bar mixer lately. Trading items for items is better than expecting people to always have cash.

 

Read the Economy 101 thread. There is alot of info in there.

[Shadow_runner]

I was just wondering how you came to the conclusion that ingredients prices where too high?

 

Do you have a blue book price list for EL?

[Cruella]

Trading items for items is better than expecting people to always have cash.

 

Cash is never an issue. In order to have cash and to be able to afford cash purchases one just needs to be flexible. If you are stuck with one skill, or even worse, with one particular thing withing this skill, it might be hard indeed to get enough cash. The more you produce, the higher chance a price will drop. However, you can always observe the market and do what's the most profitable at the moment. See which prices are going up and which are going down. If the thing you were doing stops bringing profit, just cease doing it. Possibly, if more people do the same, the price of the goods will start to raise again and you'll be able to return to what you've been doing before.

[Pyewacket]

High end items are not meant as a means to level up even further, theyre something to get high levels FOR. You cant sit in a manu school and expect to progress from mixing xK's of leather helms to mixing xK's of Jagged Sabres.

 

The key word to look for in the first post is "rollercoster"

 

It means things go down as well as up. (and sideways but we'll not go into that eh?)

 

So whilst it seems a major problem at the moment because ings > end produce, it isnt the fault of the ings sellers. Buy when the ings is lower, plan in advance when you see dips in the market. Play long term strategy. Manuers arent manuing any more til prices change? NP, a build up of ings will ensue, ensuring prices of ings drop again, teh dip begins, the cycle changes and we're back to manuers buying cheaper ings again. Just try not to think about the "now" so much. Since the other side effect (apart from number of ings increasing) to manuers going on strike means that the manu'd stuff leaves game as normal (unless someone gets nervous and decides to withdraw from doing usual stuff) but manu'd items coming IN will slow down (increasing manu'd items value anyways til theyre happy with it!).

 

Basically, just take it in your stride, deal with it each in your own ways. But dont get all finger-pointy and say OMFG its YOUR fault coz it isnt anyones. Market fluctuates, why you all NOW decide fluctuations are unacceptable has less to do with your pr0 accountancy and business management skills, and more to do with your personal dislikes of individuals you are choosing to blame for things not being teh way you wish they were.

 

Deal or No Deal? just fkn deal kthnx - PYE

 

*If I've offended anyone by this post, good. Act on it and do something today that motivates you to get past the bloody arguements.*

[nathanstenzel]

<CLIP>

See which prices are going up and which are going down. If the thing you were doing stops bringing profit, just cease doing it. Possibly, if more people do the same, the price of the goods will start to raise again and you'll be able to return to what you've been doing before.

Sounds like a stock market. Although it does sound logical, I prefer a nice flat stock market. Heh. I take one stock errr item in exchange for another item and decrease the number of those items floating around on market so they don't get desperate and sell it for less. I believe iron cuisses cost about 5K lately on market and I gave someone a credit of somewhere over 7300gc (I forget what it was) off of a steel helm.

 

Being flexible and accepting more than just cash AND not making something unless requested (and your price is accepted with your profit margin in place) which usually means there are not many on market like you said......doing both is what I think many should do.

 

You say cash is not a problem, but I think that is just a case for you. You are not exactly a poor lady, last I knew. Besides, everyone has the problem of needing to liquidate their assets (built up storage items) once in a while.

[Cruella]

You say cash is not a problem, but I think that is just a case for you. You are not exactly a poor lady, last I knew.

 

I'm not poor because I practice what I preach. I have switched my sources of income so many times already that I probably do not remember all of them. Some has vanished because the game has changed, some because certain buyers lost interest in particular skill, other because too many people have jumped on the bandwagon. Nevertheless there is always a niche you can find for yourself.

[Entropy]

As many of you have noticed the EL economy is one of the best rollercoaster rides anywhere. Up and down without pattern and my theory is that the main cause of this is because of the rift between manuers and the people buying those products. However as stated ingame by uga the problem isn't the manuers and the problem isn't people buying to low, the problem is the ing's are priced to high.

 

So you mean that if I make an ultra rare pirce of shit that has no use in the game, it's going to ruin the economy, yes?

[LabRat]

So you mean that if I make an ultra rare pirce of shit that has no use in the game, it's going to ruin the economy, yes?

I'll buy \o/

[Shujral]

I think some keys are for harvesters to charge no more than the weight of the item

 

2 gc rostos please.

[LabRat]

I think some keys are for harvesters to charge no more than the weight of the item

 

2 gc rostos please.

Titanium at 1 gc?

[Ermabwed]

So you mean that if I make an ultra rare pirce of shit that has no use in the game, it's going to ruin the economy, yes?

I'll buy \o/

To afford it, LeRat will push silver ore price to 5 gc thus ruining the economy. Next question.

[nathanstenzel]

Sorry for not being specific enough. I meant "for harvesters to not charge more than the emu for silver, coal, gold, sulfur, iron ore".

 

I was referencing the 2.5gc silver ore that I heard of lately.

[Silvatica]

The one starting this thread proclaims that the problem is that ingredients is too expensive and thus forcing the prices up. Well the reason for that is very simple - the demand for the items also has gone up alot and the number of rare ingredients has not gone up.

Its natural that in a world where the economy grows and many wants rare items and can afford them and the number of items does not increase in-game - the price will go up.

 

There is two ways to counter that:

1. Money sinks to make players poorer - ie tax the players so fewer can afford the high value items.

2. Increase the number of items ingame so the price don't go up - ie let more players have high value items like ice dragon armor.

 

 

Currently mostly option 1 has been used to try and stop this.

 

For those not liking the price increases - make 10K FE and hope you get many EFE that you can sell to lower the prices of ingredients which will lead to prices of great sword once again going down.

[bigkav]

The one starting this thread proclaims that the problem is that ingredients is too expensive and thus forcing the prices up. Well the reason for that is very simple - the demand for the items also has gone up alot and the number of rare ingredients has not gone up.

Its natural that in a world where the economy grows and many wants rare items and can afford them and the number of items does not increase in-game - the price will go up.

 

There is two ways to counter that:

1. Money sinks to make players poorer - ie tax the players so fewer can afford the high value items.

2. Increase the number of items ingame so the price don't go up - ie let more players have high value items like ice dragon armor.

 

 

Currently mostly option 1 has been used to try and stop this.

 

For those not liking the price increases - make 10K FE and hope you get many EFE that you can sell to lower the prices of ingredients which will lead to prices of great sword once again going down.

You talk wayyyy too much, it ultimately comes down to one person, Radu. he decides how EL economy runs. I highly doubt it's going to change by writing the same thing over again in annoyingly large paragraphs. >.> (btw not just directed at you, alot of other "tiruns" in this forum also)

Edited March 11, 2009 by bigkav

[Entropy]

The only way to properly counter it is to limit the harvestible quantity of materials per day, and players don't want that.

[nathanstenzel]

The only way to properly counter it is to limit the harvestible quantity of materials per day, and players don't want that.

If that was to happen, I imagine a number of things would happen.

 

Alot of complaints.

It would be more likely for you to increase the chance of an enriched essences and rare harvest finds.

People would buy more EFE and rare harvest finds from your shop.

People would be more likely to buy sulfur and essences from npc's.

Prices for all essences, rare harvest event items and all finished items would go up to about the price of the npc.

Prices of enriched essences would depend greatly on the frequency that they are allowed to occur as they do now.

Possibility of requests to remove or increase the harvesting xp item limit.

Requests to increase the gc drops from monsters to help pay for the HE and other essences used in fighting while avoiding finished item drops which may harm the fighter <--> mixer relationships and transactions.

Gradual adjustment.

The harvesting business would be imited and they would have to find something else to do besides harvesting.

 

Of course, how far this goes depends greatly on what amount the harvest item/spot puts out during any specific time period.

 

If nothing else, I hope this list of possible results brings a little chuckle.

The only advice I can really give on this matter is that people are less likely to complain if things are done gradually. (shrugs)

All of this is merely hypothetical and posted just for the sake of an attempt to show what might possibly happen.

[Cycloonx]

The only way to properly counter it is to limit the harvestible quantity of materials per day, and players don't want that.

 

I don't see how this would fix the problem?

 

Currently prices of ores are rising. This means the supply lowered or there is more demand. Since the first possibility isn't possible in this game there is only the 2nd one left. Now if you want limited harvests you also insert the first problem. So the effect would be even worse and prices will go much higher.