Manufacturing strike!

[Andalan]

To add my 0.02gc as a (relative) noob, considering my 27 manu levels:

 

What is the gc/hour rate again for harvesting lupines/lilacs/whatever? I think that's the most stupid way of earning money, so I never did it Still that probably fixes the minimum (reasonable) price for ingredients, be it ores, metal bars or enriched essences and should make those minimum prices quite easily calculatable. After all, EL is just a game, so the only stable currency should be the required game minutes

 

Then, if someone shows me the numbers, you can discuss about overpriced ingredients again.

 

Another thought: Shouldn't higher rare weapon prices lower their ordinary equivalent price? In a way such that

(x-1)*normal price + special price = constant

where x:1 is the rate of making the special item. It would be interesting to have some bot (rraisa?) plot a history of item prices over time.

 

And one word about rumors that bots offer to buy/sell for the wrong (too low/ too high) prices: It's just people who can do it at these prices because other people sell/buy for appropriate prices. There's no secret bot organization trying to make your life hard. And I'm not just a bot sent by Skynet make you believe that, either.

[Shadow_runner]

And Pepa? Yea I pay just 20kgc by PEPA for steel greaves as couple of other bots do - Minerva, UnitGirl, Warmart. Some of them are even cheaper Miria 19kgc, Pound 18kgc. And I will keep the price. If I increase the price to 24kgc I would buy more products than I sell. It could be ok for somebody but it is a problem for me, I will be just a trader and no manuer anymore...

 

And here lies the biggest problem of all. Our famous striker want 'other' people to pay the cost price and make a profit. But he doesn't want to do it 'himself'. IE wants to sell those steel greaves for cost plus but doesn't want to buy them for that. He still wants the undercut price.

 

Those who support this 'joker' should now withdrawn it.

 

What of the bolded part you did not understand? Did you thought about the thing, he would end up with all those undercutter's products? It's simply a prevention for oversupplying.

 

how so? he buys for undercut price to prevent ending up with more items bought then sold?

why not simply let the bot not buy it at all then?

 

kinda hypocrit to go on strike saying "im tired of this, i want higher prices for manu items, but hey, feel free to sell to my bot at undercut prices though while i resell and add +5k"

 

its like Jaclaw says, everytime items get more expensive, monster drops stay the same or get reduced.

example, rumour has it that Yeti are pro to make gc at. 7k gc an hour taking 107 Sr's and 350 HE's, thats around 4k gc of supply's leaving you with 3k gc profit at the end of the round...

you would have to train 10 hours (without restock time and waiting for spawn) on those things to be able to afford a great sword with those new prices.

faster to just harvest/find binding/enrichment stones and sell all that with some inflation.

 

most manuers here acting like they HAVE to buy those binding stones and EFE at those high prices, you are trying to fix a problem you create yourself by paying that much for those items.

preventing is better then fixing the problem, stop buying ingredients at high prices and prices will go down cause most sellers have no use for it and will get desperate trying to sell it

 

Yes, thank you. Someone who gets 'it'. For those of you who rushed to Holar's aid. He even admitted it himself:

 

OK, you are quite right. I explained why I could not pay more. Then I will just buy and sell. I will not produce it and it is not my aim. So Pepa does not buy armour/weapons anymore. I quit it and I do not joke.

 

I also set new prices of items and I am about to keep it whatever happend just following ingreds price.

 

Btw, why to lose 4kgc on steel greave and gain 700 basic manu experience? For the same 4kgc I can get at manu cave more than 14k exps without god and rationality... Of course I have no chance to make rare item then, but is it worth? In my own case, it is not...

 

I bet you feel a bit silly now.

 

Holar I not asking you to make 4kgc loss on Steel greave. Your premise was everyone 'should' at least pay the real cost price for goods or items. That everyone included 'you' as well, I was simply pointing out your double standard. Which you spotted.

[Norm]

I agree with what a few others have stated, band together to force lower ing prices. When I find a rare stone, or a mob drops an enriched essence, I usually sale at the market rate. If that rate was half the price it is now, guess what, that's the price I would sell it for. Raw ings is the base of the market, it controls the price of everything else above it on the chain. The problem is, there is a way around the increased price for many players, just get the ings and have a high manu friend make it for you.

[Entropy]

The reason for the inflation of items is not only the rarity of the items (some are actually not that rare as you'd think) but also because the gold coins are not that useful anymore.

So I am planning to change this with the coming server update, and I am pretty sure the rare items will go down in price a little.

[korrode]

If we remove special items from the game, there wont be any reason to make mass production.

Dunnow about other ppl, but for me its fairly simple: I aint gonna pay ingredient price for any armor or weapon that has a chance on a special worth 300K-1M gc.

Only way to really counter this kind of mass production is to lower the chance for special swords/armors A LOT (so you only get one by luck and not by producing tons of them).

Nope, higher their chance to produce but lower their strenght

...i just thought i'd quote these people and remain ever on my ORANGE SPAM GEAR R GHEY ON SO MANY LEVELS band wagon

[Zenial]

First, Holar I applaud you for making a stand, and any other manufactures doing the same - it's a good try.

However, I'm afraid, it will all be in vain. As long as Tankel and HeavyBeard still exist, your efforts are a waste. Really, this is a novelty, it's only a matter of time until armor prices drop again due to their being too many in game.

 

Myself, I think if the prices go up (as they dearly should, for manufacturer's sakes) I will get by making my own armors. No sale here, sorry.

[Ednovel]

I agree and will join the strike with pleasure!

 

It is long over due.

 

[Entropy]

I have the coolest idea ever!

Instead of going on strike, you guys should do this:

Make a secret organisation, something like: Manu Mafia.

Then offer rewards for those who broad good armors and weapons. Of course, your customers should not know who is behind that mafia, or else they would boycott you.

[Pyewacket]

I dont see it as a strike so much as keep making em but dont sell em..at least not for teh cheap prices..just leave in storage til u find someone willing to pay teh RIGHT price. Hoarding? Ah well, cant win em all. There is no mafia in EL. Those who think otherwise will be waking up next to horsewhistles...

[Gilrain]

I can survive without my ranking lvl and I will shake Pillgrims hand as first.

funny you mention him. I just recently sold some wolframite for 600gc each to sheitan, cause i saw his need in the market channel.

Lemme know when you pay a fair price for wolframite, so that i dont miss the point in time.

(yes thats sarcasm)

 

I agree with what a few others have stated, band together to force lower ing prices. When I find a rare stone, or a mob drops an enriched essence, I usually sale at the market rate. If that rate was half the price it is now, guess what, that's the price I would sell it for. Raw ings is the base of the market, it controls the price of everything else above it on the chain. The problem is, there is a way around the increased price for many players, just get the ings and have a high manu friend make it for you.

sure, pls sell me your iron ore for 1.75, where can we meet ?

And pls see above for lower ing prices.

 

regards

[Burn]

What is the gc/hour rate again for harvesting lupines/lilacs/whatever?

 

Selling Harvables for the GC - I did a comparison of some of the most commonly sold harvables (both to NPC and to other players), which (at my EMU at the time) also gives an approximate gc per hour including the time needed to walk to the NPC/storage.

 

 

I agree with what a few others have stated, band together to force lower ing prices.

 

 

Too many greedy "I want it now"-types for this to work, despite that hiked ing prices only ends up hurting them in the end. "GC now" is more important to them than "GC over time", though the "GC now" is just going to end up making them spend more GC in the end than they'll ever make "now".

[Cruella]

Slight offtopic - from your EL blog you've linked above:

 

If not in a rush, iron is the true champion. However, there's some boneheads out there who regularly try to buy it for less. Don't sell to them, ever.

 

Spend some time mining silver ore, sell at 2gc (and remember, not to the boycotted list, hehe). Make sure it's visible on market that you're selling for 2gc. Make those trying to sell for 2.5gc look stupid this way.

 

Not sure, but aren't you a bonehead who tries to buy silver for less and in the same time iron price hiker ?

 

You see to what making such blatant statements leads to? Making a big issue about 0.5 gc difference ... Wouldn't it be better to let free market take care of that? I mean as long as there are people selling iron for 3 gc and buying silver for 2.5 gc it seems these are acceptable rates for them, no?

[Burn]

Don't use me as an excuse to de-rail the topic with your pathetic attempts at insults.

 

"Not sure"... Just writing those two words should have set off a loud clanging alarm in your head to stop typing.

 

This is your second attempt to de-rail a thread using me as the excuse. Get it through that skull of yours, stay on topic. Bait doesn't work on me.

Edited March 2, 2009 by GoodDay2Die

[Cruella]

I have no interest to de-rail this topic. In my previous post I have asked you to explain in a separate topic the reasons behind your signature but you have ignored this request (fair enough, it is not obligatory to answer my questions). I have posted my comment on your blog but since you advertise your boycott on THIS forum and it is related to THIS game I feel free to comment HERE.

[Andalan]

What is the gc/hour rate again for harvesting lupines/lilacs/whatever?

 

Selling Harvables for the GC - I did a comparison of some of the most commonly sold harvables (both to NPC and to other players), which (at my EMU at the time) also gives an approximate gc per hour including the time needed to walk to the NPC/storage.

Thanks for that useful data!

 

Actually to me this means that (if the only "real" currency is game time) most raw ingredients (apart from gypsum and iron) are actually underpriced, since "fair hours, fair wages" should give about the same gc/hour for all kinds of harvesting work, correct? Taking these circumstances into account, ingredients' costs seem rather fair (e.g. iron bars: ~36gc according to rraisa instead of 30-33 according to the pure base costs, without food).

[rutuliukas]

I have the coolest idea ever!

Instead of going on strike, you guys should do this:

Make a secret organisation, something like: Manu Mafia.

Then offer rewards for those who broad good armors and weapons. Of course, your customers should not know who is behind that mafia, or else they would boycott you.

 

 

well then they must reward me a lot...

[Cruella]

Actually to me this means that (if the only "real" currency is game time) most raw ingredients (apart from gypsum and iron) are actually underpriced, since "fair hours, fair wages" should give about the same gc/hour for all kinds of harvesting work, correct?

 

Incorrect. Various harvestables give various experience (look at tree mushrooms popularity in harving vs "income" they give), and there is different demand for each. The only machanism that truly dictates the price is demand/supply proportion. It is not about what one thinks it should cost, it is about what people are willing to pay and how much they are buying.

[Gilrain]

Actually to me this means that (if the only "real" currency is game time) most raw ingredients (apart from gypsum and iron) are actually underpriced, since "fair hours, fair wages" should give about the same gc/hour for all kinds of harvesting work, correct?

No.

The market price results from several aspects, of which the mentioned one is only one.

The purpose of a price is not to be fair, at least not on an open market. Its just the point where buyers and sellers meet.

*repeating it over and over*

 

 

Edit: sry didnt notice Cruella's response before submitting

Edited March 2, 2009 by Gilrain

[Chosen]

You do know the only people to blame are you manufacturers? Stop mass-producing everything trying to make the special items. And the price will be higher because there will be less of them in-game.

 

And you're all so desperate too make these special items that you'll pay anything for the ingredients, making them more expensive for yourself.

 

Oh well, have fun.

 

And I just checked Pepa..

 

[PM from Pepa: [.267|........1|Jagged saber.................|...29900.00]

 

LOL - Good luck.

[Khalai]

Stop mass-producing everything trying to make the special items.

 

I just use Liquid's quote snap to ask a general question what is the definition of mass production? Because it sounds like many of people think, that every manufacturer is awesomely rich and making 100 new swords per week (which is of course ridiculous).

Edited March 2, 2009 by Khalai

[Cruella]

I'm not manuer but there are weeks when I make hundreds of swords lol -> s2e's

 

The difference between me and manuers is that I curse when I make rare one

 

Being serious, by "mass producing" we consider buying ingreds for X gc, to make items worth less than X gc, in a hope to make a rare worth more than the difference and gain a lot of exp in the process.

[Norm]

Gilrain, I said I sell at market price. The reason that you can't lower ings price is greed? Do you not think that greed will not also doom this strike? There are prob too many of these items already on the market to force higher prices. Why wouldn't a manu'er concentrate on making gc through items that have to be re-stocked more often, i.e., aug sets, he, sr, etc. ? You could harv your own ings, so it is pure profit. The basic problem is that manu'ers will pay top gc for the rare item ings, as it is the only way to get them in. I firmly agree that manu should be profitable, but not all items will be that way. Why wait for item prices to hit the "npc ceiling"? Why not work to lower ing prices now, if harvers keep raising prices, you will have to eventually.

 

Oh, I don't sell iron ore, I have far better ways of making gc.

[Ateh]

well im looking forward to entropys change coming, that will hopefully reduce prices of rare ings.

but again its been discussed in another topic , and he said it again in this one :

 

some items are not as rare as you would think

 

I take that to mean such things as serp ( which was from an old thread ) and binding stones which somehow everyone seems to imagine that ALL ( if not all manuers then who ? just 3-4 , or 10 of them ? ruined the economy ? pfft ) manuers have exhausted the supply of them by trying to make a JSOC , which quite frankly I think is bollocks

 

so blaming it on ''manuers'' being greedy bastards trying to get some rare equipment doesnt wash with me , even shaitan was saying earlier he doesnt sit there and knock out 100 JS at a time

 

theres thousands of bindings and serp stones in the game, its just that nobody wants to part with them because they think they will never get hold of another one, and everyone thinks like that which is a nasty situation to be in

 

#edit anyway yeh looking forward to the coming changes, hopefully manu skill will be less of a charity skill where you donate your GC to help other people

Edited March 2, 2009 by Ateh

[Holar]

Being serious, by "mass producing" we consider buying ingreds for X gc, to make items worth less than X gc, in a hope to make a rare worth more than the difference and gain a lot of exp in the process.

 

Yes, and it is exactly what I declare to quit, including selling other products (like steel greaves) far from their ingreds price. That is meaning of my "strike". And I repeat, I made this topic to explain to all possible customers why I have my prices so high. To say them: I am not a thief but I do not want to support you...

 

Btw I never did mass production. Based on my counter, I made 30 great swords in last 301 online hours and it includes last increased make rare special day. In normal days I mix just swords I or Pepa already sold (about 5 a week). Handling high armour the same way. I would not call it mass production at all.

 

And I just checked Pepa..

[PM from Pepa: [.267|........1|Jagged saber.................|...29900.00]

LOL - Good luck.

 

Yes, I will need a luck to sell a piece, but I will keep it until it is accepted or until ingreds price change. That is what I say. I do not care if I sell none. I can use 8-10kgc waste on every sword better way. Im sure.

 

And to be completely sure, I do not await others will massively follow me, it never happen, I am not so stupid. I just made my own decision and informed about it. And as visible from amount of replies, there is at least topic to talk about.

 

Have a nice game!

[Andalan]

Incorrect. Various harvestables give various experience (look at tree mushrooms popularity in harving vs "income" they give), and there is different demand for each. The only machanism that truly dictates the price is demand/supply proportion. It is not about what one thinks it should cost, it is about what people are willing to pay and how much they are buying.

Yes, that's of course what establishes the actual prices. But I doubt that experience points play such a big factor, since every character only spends a certain amount of time where producing one thing or another is the most effective exp-wise. After some time everyone would simply be level 99+ at whichever skill is practiced and experience points wouldn't matter any more. So I see only two possible explanations:

 

• The whole economy is based on a steady flow of newbs who gradually become 1334 players and who then either suddenly quit or convince their little siblings to start playing EL as well to keep the pyramid system working. Honestly this sounds like a rather improbable explanation to me...
  
• People are just plain stupid, maybe uninformed or have other objectives. Why should one take the extra trouble and sell stuff to the market when flowers give more gc for less work? Maybe I'm one of these, because, after all, it's just a game, and selling blue flowers is not the most fun way of earning a living.
  

 

Anyway, I don't think there's something wrong with the game, unless you play it in a way that's no fun for yourself! And in that case you can't blame Entropy, just yourself.