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Manufacturing strike!

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A good chart, that, but it represents gc only. I am one of those that states that drops do indeed make up for low gc on monsters, in particular on trolls.

 

I've done over 20k trolls and know that spending a few hours on them can often times give much more gc when the book drops are sold than you have gathered in from gc only. And thats just counting the books..there are also s2e, capes, various stones and other things that boost the income even more from these often miscounted monsters. More worthwhile killing them than ever the blue lupes bush was, in my opinion. It can earn a decent enough income to pay for training and equipment elsewhere. But this is getting a little off-topic so I will leave it at this thought:~ Kill More Trolls!

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The problem is not drops only, it's also the issue that stronger the mob, longer the time you last on single one. Thus in total, drops are lower. I can state this for example on armed orcs vs cyclops. I train on both (also with a lion to make training more variable) and believe me, I am getting 10x more drops from armed orcs. Why? Because I can kill like 100-120 per hour, but I can kill only like 15 clops per hour (we are talking about training, not killing them). This also makes a difference. Not just the amount of drops solely.

 

For example, Pye's trolls, in Orvimon crypt, there are plenty of them, you can kill them quite fast, so also the amount of drops is pleasing, try this on cyclops or dcws...

Edited by Khalai

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[Karlin @ 3]: Buying: steel long sword (50gc)[PM from Karlin: skunk hat |2 |1.00gc ]

[PM from Karlin: leather torso |5 |25.00gc[PM from Karlin: iron bar |100|5.00gc u talk about manuers this is biggest rip off in game,ban these bots that rip off new players for hard earned gc.this bot should be boycotted,his owners should be banned for scamming.bot r to make a profit this is just ridiculous!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:pickaxe: 24/7

beer nuff said

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[Karlin @ 3]: Buying: steel long sword (50gc)[PM from Karlin: skunk hat |2 |1.00gc ]

[PM from Karlin: leather torso |5 |25.00gc[PM from Karlin: iron bar |100|5.00gc u talk about manuers this is biggest rip off in game,ban these bots that rip off new players for hard earned gc.this bot should be boycotted,his owners should be banned for scamming.bot r to make a profit this is just ridiculous!

:pickaxe: 24/7

beer nuff said

Where those supposed to be buying or selling prices? Either way, it sounds like that bot has either been hacked or they entered in a ludicrous buying price to meet some special bot rule.

 

I think there might be a rule where the bot has to be willing to buy/sell from everyone that is not black-listed. Not sure though.

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[Karlin @ 3]: Buying: steel long sword (50gc)[PM from Karlin: skunk hat |2 |1.00gc ]

[PM from Karlin: leather torso |5 |25.00gc[PM from Karlin: iron bar |100|5.00gc u talk about manuers this is biggest rip off in game,ban these bots that rip off new players for hard earned gc.this bot should be boycotted,his owners should be banned for scamming.bot r to make a profit this is just ridiculous!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:P 24/7

beer nuff said

 

So, in your opinion, anyone who sells or buys for say.. what, outside of 10%, of the normal price, should be banned? Okay, let's just throw the free market economy out of the window, we can all sell for fixed prices to NPCs, right? Check out rule 10. It is your choice whether or not to trade with a bot, don't worry about it's prices, simply don't trade with it if you don't like it.

 

I could go into economics 101, but sufficive to say, due to supply curves being very low at that price, that bot will not be able to purchase many of those items. Free market economies are self regulating(to a large degree), so they do not need people to arbitrarily decide which traders are "scamming".

 

Oh, and already suggested, please search before posting. http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=47900

 

[Karlin @ 3]: Buying: steel long sword (50gc)[PM from Karlin: skunk hat |2 |1.00gc ]

[PM from Karlin: leather torso |5 |25.00gc[PM from Karlin: iron bar |100|5.00gc u talk about manuers this is biggest rip off in game,ban these bots that rip off new players for hard earned gc.this bot should be boycotted,his owners should be banned for scamming.bot r to make a profit this is just ridiculous!

:) 24/7

beer nuff said

Where those supposed to be buying or selling prices? Either way, it sounds like that bot has either been hacked or they entered in a ludicrous buying price to meet some special bot rule.

 

I think there might be a rule where the bot has to be willing to buy/sell from everyone that is not black-listed. Not sure though.

 

No, the bot has not been hacked. BTW, since most bots which do not buy those items essentially buy them at 0 gc, Karlin has a better deal on those items. She offers at least something. We'd better ban all the bots which do not buy them at all, those profit making machines.

 

There is no rule about which segment of the population a bot may buy or sell items to or from. However, since for many bots, the black list is defined as the list of players whom the bot is not willing to buy or sell from, such a rule would be quite redundant.

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Huge thread...but useful for killing time while harving.

 

Seems to me the biggest issue is who thinks they have the most right to make gc in this game.... harvers,mixers(I mean all makeable items), and fighters.

 

So here are my suggestions for what they're worth.

 

1) monsters no longer drop makeable or harvestable items (including stones) but gc drop is increased

2)make the pk areas around rare metal sites no drop zones (if the pkers dont have to lose their stuff why should the harvers?)

3)increase the xp level for higher level items

4) this is the one I'll prob get flamed for..... radu sets a base price for each and every item in the game...everything that can be harvested,made or found in a drop. ie nothing can be sold for less than x amount of gc and at the same time sets it so that no one can make more than a reasonable profit (ie 15%)..people can still make a profit and no one will get gouged.

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...radu sets a base price for each and every item in the game...everything that can be harvested,made or found in a drop. ie nothing can be sold for less than x amount of gc and at the same time sets it so that no one can make more than a reasonable profit (ie 15%)...

This would be trivial to implement by setting the NPC buy/sell prices to the min/max of each item's range. Few would sell for less than what they could get from the NPC, and few would buy for more than what the NPC charges.

 

The hard part is figuring out just what that range should be for each item in the game. For example we've already seen pages of debate on the true cost of an item: (1) it's "free" because you can harvest everything needed vs (2) it's "Xgc" because that's what it costs to buy all the ingredients to mix one.

 

But if he wanted, Entropy could define the market value of every item in the game by simply adjusting the NPC prices. I'll let someone else debate if that's the best solution or not.

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LOL. You think that fighter's don't level any other skills? Do you think harvesters don't fight or mix?. Everything is fine as it is, too much bitching in game. drop it, not needed. The people who can make these products sell them for prices they see fit, just because someone says they can't sell at whichever price they want, doesn't mean that they won't try.

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This is just bs...

 

What i think:

 

When u want to make steel greave/cuisses or other kind of armor/wep u also have a chance to make a special item.

When u try to make 1 of these thing u can lose up to 5-8kgc but! these 5-8kgc is going to try ur luck to make a special item... thats how i see it... Most of the time im geting ingr to 5steel cuisses to try my luck at some high manuers. The ingr price is about 28k, anyway if there wont come a steel cuisses of mana drain im selling these steel cuisses for 23-25k.

 

But when u make somthing special its like 300kgc+.

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This is just bs...

 

What i think:

 

When u want to make steel greave/cuisses or other kind of armor/wep u also have a chance to make a special item.

When u try to make 1 of these thing u can lose up to 5-8kgc but! these 5-8kgc is going to try ur luck to make a special item... thats how i see it... Most of the time im geting ingr to 5steel cuisses to try my luck at some high manuers. The ingr price is about 28k, anyway if there wont come a steel cuisses of mana drain im selling these steel cuisses for 23-25k.

 

But when u make somthing special its like 300kgc+.

 

Agree!!

And don't forget experience you get producing it.

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This is just bs...

 

What i think:

 

When u want to make steel greave/cuisses or other kind of armor/wep u also have a chance to make a special item.

When u try to make 1 of these thing u can lose up to 5-8kgc but! these 5-8kgc is going to try ur luck to make a special item... thats how i see it... Most of the time im geting ingr to 5steel cuisses to try my luck at some high manuers. The ingr price is about 28k, anyway if there wont come a steel cuisses of mana drain im selling these steel cuisses for 23-25k.

 

But when u make somthing special its like 300kgc+.

 

Well, I think this is bullshit

 

With your logic then, you should be selling me all the fire essence/water essences /life essences you make for 1.2 each, beacause you have a chance to make a rare Enriched fire essence????

 

I know people close to level 90 manu, that have made 1 speical sword in almost 3 years playing, and there is no speicals for dragon armors, bronze yet as far as I am aware.

 

So pm me in game, I sell you a steel set 15k cheaper then cost, if you keep me in fire essences for a week at 1.2 each...and you may get a EFE so Bonus gc's for you!!

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I can't believe that there are still people around who think a "manu strike" will have any effect. Anyone who is not participating will soon find that it is much more profitable for them. If you know anything about economics, you know that this won't work.

 

Long-term unsustainability of cartels.

Edited by Mr.Mind

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the funny thing about that it's based on the Nash equilibrium. in tests

it was discovered that the only people that behaved according to that

were sociopaths and the economists themselves. Nash dismissed

his own theory... that it was based on schizophrenic delusions which

he suffered from.

Edited by HereticEast

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This is just bs...

 

What i think:

 

When u want to make steel greave/cuisses or other kind of armor/wep u also have a chance to make a special item.

When u try to make 1 of these thing u can lose up to 5-8kgc but! these 5-8kgc is going to try ur luck to make a special item... thats how i see it... Most of the time im geting ingr to 5steel cuisses to try my luck at some high manuers. The ingr price is about 28k, anyway if there wont come a steel cuisses of mana drain im selling these steel cuisses for 23-25k.

 

But when u make somthing special its like 300kgc+.

 

Well, I think this is bullshit

 

With your logic then, you should be selling me all the fire essence/water essences /life essences you make for 1.2 each, beacause you have a chance to make a rare Enriched fire essence????

 

I know people close to level 90 manu, that have made 1 speical sword in almost 3 years playing, and there is no speicals for dragon armors, bronze yet as far as I am aware.

 

So pm me in game, I sell you a steel set 15k cheaper then cost, if you keep me in fire essences for a week at 1.2 each...and you may get a EFE so Bonus gc's for you!!

 

Lol, I hope you realize how insanely stupid this statement is:

1 - FEs demand is -close to- unlimited. Greatsword and steel, tit armor demand is certainly not unlimited. My point is: no need EVER to sell FEs for less than 3.5 each. While greatsword and steel, tit armor market is, IMHO, permanently saturated.

2 - Mixing FEs in market quantaties (1-5K+, depending on player. I personally dont bother buying less than 5K per trade) takes a lot of time, mixing special swords and steel, tit armors in market quantaties (1+) does not. So FE mixer needs to get payed for time investment. Hell, this is the reason I believe we all buy FEs. It takes ages to mix them.

My point is: for a 35K gc (10K FEs) deal, a FE mixer needs to spend like 4 hours mixing, while mixing 35K gc worth of armors/swords takes less than a minute. Instead of 4 hours mixing, you can harvest iron ore for 4 hours, which leads to ~28K gc (2K iron/hour).

3 - Chance on rare special sword and steel, tit armor (I dont know the exact rate, but I bet its better than 1/500, prolly better than 1/100 as well) is way better than chance on EFE (check skill forum alch for recent tread on chance).

4 - Special swords and steel, tit armors have WAY more value than EFE.

 

Combine 2, 3 and 4 and Im sure you ll find that if someone is selling greatswords and steel cuisses/greaves at 4K gc loss, he ll still make profit on the occasional 300K-1M gc special.

Combine 2, 3 and 4 and Im sure you ll find that if someone is selling FEs @ 1.2 each, hell even at 3.5 each, he is better off just harvesting iron ore instead of mixing all these hours.

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the funny thing about that it's based on the Nash equilibrium. in tests

it was discovered that the only people that behaved according to that

were sociopaths and the economists themselves. Nash dismissed

his own theory... that it was based on schizophrenic delusions which

he suffered from.

 

The simple truth is that it pays more for a player to not participate when everyone else is trying to fix prices. I discovered this empirically a few years ago. If you want to make a very nice profit, I encourage you to support this manufacturing "strike" and then take advantage of the higher prices before the strike ends. It served me well in the past.

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The simple truth is that it pays more for a player to not participate when everyone else is trying to fix prices. I discovered this empirically a few years ago. If you want to make a very nice profit, I encourage you to support this manufacturing "strike" and then take advantage of the higher prices before the strike ends. It served me well in the past.

 

i don't know what kind of villain you were supposed to be but in this circumstance

this strategy would be completely inept. the only way you can afford to do this

is produce your own ings... and you can make more selling the ings which is

the whole point.

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the only way you can afford to do this

is produce your own ings... and you can make more selling the ings which is

the whole point.

Indeed, you've discovered the key to why my strategy works. Produce your own ingredients!

 

And why do you make more money selling ingredients? The xp you get from making finished products has an implicit value. This value is subtracted from the selling price of the product. As long as people ignore this value, there will be a perceived loss.

 

In fact, I would argue that you could reduce prices further and still be making a profit if you are willing to include the true value of xp. - This is why I'm considered a villain.

Edited by Mr.Mind

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you are just making xp more expensive then. also if you are producing your own ings you are harving a lot which gives the least xp... which is why people don't like to do this.

Edited by HereticEast

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the only way you can afford to do this

is produce your own ings... and you can make more selling the ings which is

the whole point.

Indeed, you've discovered the key to why my strategy works. Produce your own ingredients!

 

And why do you make more money selling ingredients? The xp you get from making finished products has an implicit value. This value is subtracted from the selling price of the product. As long as people ignore this value, there will be a perceived loss.

 

In fact, I would argue that you could reduce prices further and still be making a profit if you are willing to include the true value of xp. - This is why I'm considered a villain.

Which brings us back to the idea of "Can I mix your stuff for you for xp? All I need is the food to do it on.". Pardon me, but you are a silly one. You should never pay someone their ingredients, which upon selling your items, that is exactly what you are doing. If anything, you charge them to mix their ingredients.

 

To others:

Oh and not to totally dismiss the opinions of the new guys, but it is farily easy to see who has more experience in the game. I see a couple of rabbits who don't agree with the more experienced players. I am sure they will change their minds sooner or later. By the way, Privacy Mode Enabled is funny guys.

Edited by nathanstenzel

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...radu sets a base price for each and every item in the game...everything that can be harvested,made or found in a drop. ie nothing can be sold for less than x amount of gc and at the same time sets it so that no one can make more than a reasonable profit (ie 15%)...

This would be trivial to implement by setting the NPC buy/sell prices to the min/max of each item's range. Few would sell for less than what they could get from the NPC, and few would buy for more than what the NPC charges.

 

The hard part is figuring out just what that range should be for each item in the game. For example we've already seen pages of debate on the true cost of an item: (1) it's "free" because you can harvest everything needed vs (2) it's "Xgc" because that's what it costs to buy all the ingredients to mix one.

 

But if he wanted, Entropy could define the market value of every item in the game by simply adjusting the NPC prices. I'll let someone else debate if that's the best solution or not.

 

Pretty impossible to do tbh for anything that requires rares, do you base the npc price on what rares used to cost ?, what they cost now ? or what they will cost in the future ? Unless people expect Radu to change the prices with every server update

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...radu sets a base price for each and every item in the game...everything that can be harvested,made or found in a drop. ie nothing can be sold for less than x amount of gc and at the same time sets it so that no one can make more than a reasonable profit (ie 15%)...

This would be trivial to implement by setting the NPC buy/sell prices to the min/max of each item's range. Few would sell for less than what they could get from the NPC, and few would buy for more than what the NPC charges.

 

The hard part is figuring out just what that range should be for each item in the game. For example we've already seen pages of debate on the true cost of an item: (1) it's "free" because you can harvest everything needed vs (2) it's "Xgc" because that's what it costs to buy all the ingredients to mix one.

 

But if he wanted, Entropy could define the market value of every item in the game by simply adjusting the NPC prices. I'll let someone else debate if that's the best solution or not.

 

Pretty impossible to do tbh for anything that requires rares, do you base the npc price on what rares used to cost ?, what they cost now ? or what they will cost in the future ? Unless people expect Radu to change the prices with every server update

If entropy sets the prices of finished products above the (perceived) costs that he set with npcs, then this entire thread's argument disappears. It's really easy for Entropy to stop this complaining. He must not have had time to do it in the past 4 years.

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if you set the npc buy for items with rare ings then this will drive the price

up for rare ings. it will be like whoever get's the most rare ings the fastest

wins. no? and most rare ings that come in will be horded... this would be bad no?

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if you set the npc buy for items with rare ings then this will drive the price

up for rare ings. it will be like whoever get's the most rare ings the fastest

wins. no? and most rare ings that come in will be horded... this would be bad no?

Setting prices for items that have rare ingredients is a bad idea. Setting prices in general is a bad idea, but the result of letting the market expose the true value of everything would be quite embarrassing, and we can't have that happen.

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The closest thing that could be done for controlling the prices of the high level goods that require rare ingredients is to make those rare ingredients available in game via npc. They would have buy and sell prices outside of the range that people are to buy and sell for. NPC's are always supposed to be greedy in my book.

 

Manipulating the frequency of them will only cause the frequency to decrease after it is decided that there are too many in game which would therefore get some desperate to get the item and willing to pay more. The latter is the current situation and why the rare ingreds cost as much as they do. Entropy has attempted to make people more likely to use up some items, but if they hoard them, they hoard them and nothing short of storage robbers and limited item lifespans will prevent them from hoarding them.

 

Not sure what the current drops are or if they have been adjusted to take care of some of the issues with lower level items or not. Of course that is not capable of being an issue if the fighters would just hoard those items or pretend they made them and charge a price that matches the price that a person mixing them would charge. And yes....sometimes the fighters are mixers and the mixers are fighters, but you get the point, I am sure.

 

On another note, perhaps the recipe for thread should make 2 thread now. The cotton harvests slowly pushing the cost of it up which puts the cost of the thread above 2gc from players.

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I think that npcs need to be kept out of it as much as possible. They're needed to allow people to level through items that wouldn't otherwise have a market, but they shouldn't be the basis for an economy. I like the fact that in EL I have to barter with people to advance. If I can buy ingreds for a fair price at an NPC and sell products to an NPC then the game just reduces to walking from NPC to NPC and there is no social aspect to the economy.

 

The reason manufactured goods are so cheap is grinding. People make thousands of items when nobody needs more than a few dozen. xp is the driver for this. There isn't really any way of getting around this. From a supply/demand standpoint the game would work fine if three people were manufacture level 100, maybe another 10 were around level 50, and nobody else made anything at all. Repeat this for all the other skills. However, lots of people want to level potioning even though nobody really needs another potioner and so there is a lot more supply than demand for mid-to-high level items. Now, all these people levelling creates lots of demand for FEs and bars and that sort of thing, so if you just want to mix FEs you'll never want for cash (even if you do end up dispairing of life).

 

As for me - I'm in it for fun. Sure, I factor in cost when levelling so as to not burn excessive gold. However, on most items I can at most break even. For skills that are major money sinks I just don't do them at all - or I do them in spurts from money made from other things. The fact is that the game doesn't really need another level-50+ manufacturer so the economy is going to fight me every step of the way if I try to get there. That is just how economies work, and it is the same reason why artists work for next to nothing in the real world. When you want to make things even knowing that nobody is interested in buying, you have to take a loss. The only difference in the real world is that you don't need to churn out 500,000 brass gears before you start putting together your first watch.

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