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Manufacturing strike!

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i did, should i say all manufacturers -nathan, -manuer1, -manuer2 next time?

but its great if you do that, now will the manuers look at the suggestion Conavar, Jaclaw, Korrode and me did?

I saw no sollutions from Jaclaw. Just comments that were not useful.

You, Korrode, Conavar and others think.....

1. Manufacturers should not pay as much for rare ingreds. My feedback: I only mix on demand and with a warning on the price. I give them the option to find the ingredients cheaper and have it deducted from the calculations. I hate shopping for ingredients because of the prices. That is why I don't make much high level gear.

2. Manufacturers should not overproduce. My feedback: I think overproduction is stupid and Holar stood up and told us all that his figures show it does no good to mass-produce high level gear for rare items.

3. Put a cap on the amount that people have in storage. My feedback: I have no problem with this and in fact kind of like the idea. I don't need more than 5 of each rare ingredient and I rarely have more than 2 unless it is serpent stones.

 

Now that I have looked back over the whole thread, how about you look back over it and look at my posts. :hug:

Edited by nathanstenzel

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i did, should i say all manufacturers -nathan, -manuer1, -manuer2 next time?

but its great if you do that, now will the manuers look at the suggestion Conavar, Jaclaw, Korrode and me did?

I saw no sollutions from Jaclaw. Just comments that were not useful.

You, Korrode, Conavar and others think.....

!. Manufacturers should not pay as much for rare ingreds. I only mix on demand and with a warning on the price. I give them the option to find the ingredients cheaper and have it deducted from the calculations. I hate shopping for ingredients because of the prices. That is why I don't make much high level gear.

2. Manufacturers should not overproduce. I think overproduction is stupid and Holar stood up and told us all that his figures show it does no good to mass-produce high level gear for rare items.

3. Put a cap on the amount that people have in storage. I have no problem with this and in fact kind of like the idea. I don't need more than 5 of each rare ingredient and I rarely have more than 2 unless it is serpent stones.

 

Now that I have looked back over the whole thread, how about you look back over it and look at my posts. :hug:

 

Just a small reminder: Its not all about you Nathan. There are many manufacturers out there who might have different strategies/opinions.

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Just a small reminder: Its not all about you Nathan. There are many manufacturers out there who might have different strategies/opinions.

Duh.

Those 3 items were other people's ideas followed by my oppinion on it. I just edited the post to make that more clear for folk.

Edited by nathanstenzel

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meh its getting a bit pointless now this topic, Holars statement was made, some support it , others laugh, others dont agree .........

 

I'd say manu prices are now resting on the coming changes anounced, which should lower rare ings prices ........

 

If that does happen , its more than likely that people will still find themselves paying the cost of armors , but it will be a reflection of the new ing' prices ( which will drop ) so I dont see where else this discussion is going other than the classic Mixer Vs Fighter ''Mirror Mirror on the wall who is the Poorest of them All'' type posts .........

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meh its getting a bit pointless now this topic, Holars statement was made, some support it , others laugh, others dont agree .........

 

I'd say manu prices are now resting on the coming changes anounced, which should lower rare ings prices ........

 

If that does happen , its more than likely that people will still find themselves paying the cost of armors , but it will be a reflection of the new ing' prices ( which will drop ) so I dont see where else this discussion is going other than the classic Mixer Vs Fighter ''Mirror Mirror on the wall who is the Poorest of them All'' type posts .........

Here's hoping things get better for everyone.

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point 1 is the only good point in my opinion, let the rare ingreds stockpile a bit.

sellers will get desperate trying to sell it so they will lower their price, when its low enough you buy them again and keep selling end products at prices they were before this strike.

then its up to the manuers to stand their ground and not drive the rare ingred prices up again.

 

2: not overproducing? a manuer should be able to produce what he/she wants and how much of it he/she wants, just dont get desperate trying to sell them by lowering price, eventually someone will buy.

 

3: putting a cap on storage items is a bad idea i think, people work hard for what they have in storage and shouldnt be limited in what they gather.

 

but the strike can go on, will people pay the higher prices while there are better solutions? i doubt it, there are still manufacturers who manu for the normal prices.

 

meh its getting a bit pointless now this topic, Holars statement was made, some support it , others laugh, others dont agree .........

 

I'd say manu prices are now resting on the coming changes anounced, which should lower rare ings prices ........

 

If that does happen , its more than likely that people will still find themselves paying the cost of armors , but it will be a reflection of the new ing' prices ( which will drop ) so I dont see where else this discussion is going other than the classic Mixer Vs Fighter ''Mirror Mirror on the wall who is the Poorest of them All'' type posts .........

 

well entropy said a change that would increase the value of gc, so im guessing there will be another gc drain

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what is wrong with manus focusing more on making there own ings and decreasing

manu output? this is what opec does when oil prices get too low. cutting output.

 

In theory yes a manuer could collects all his own ings, and even with having to pay for serps,bindings (prices taken from nathans siggy) for a JS for example, they could sell for 22k and make a 5k profit.

 

 

well entropy said a change that would increase the value of gc, so im guessing there will be another gc drain

 

 

Yeah radu said he was going to introduce a new money sink

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just wondering, if the GIWS, Ranging, Tailoring, Lottery npc money sinks did not help the economy, why would another money sink do help?

 

in a good economy money flows, poor people sit on their money only spending when actually needed. taking away more gc would only cause items to be more cheap, and we get more topics like this.

if people had a bit more to spend then people would have less problems with spending that 5k extra Holar is asking, and there wouldnt be a need for these kinds of topics.

so another money sink makes no sence, unless it is to encourage players to buy from shop and sell in-game to get gc.

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In theory yes a manuer could collects all his own ings, and even with having to pay for serps,bindings (prices taken from nathans siggy) for a JS for example, they could sell for 22k and make a 5k profit.

 

no you sell the ings keeping 10% to build up ing inventory for when prices turn around

from so many manus selling the ings and making less items.

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In theory yes a manuer could collects all his own ings, and even with having to pay for serps,bindings (prices taken from nathans siggy) for a JS for example, they could sell for 22k and make a 5k profit.

 

no you sell the ings keeping 10% to build up ing inventory for when prices turn around

from so many manus selling the ings and making less items.

 

True, but also depends on why people manu, if they do it because they enjoy the skill, what they could sell the ings for seperate is irrelavant, if they are having fun and making a nice profit (5k is nice profit in anyone's book) it doesnt really matter what they "could have made" gc wise.

 

 

Edit @ Boe

 

Could also mention that gc/drops etc have been reduced for the players who buy these items, but people would just tell us to go serp a lower mob... hmmmm bit like manuers having to make lower stuff to make money ........ irony aye :hug:

Edited by conavar

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If production requires a tool, you should also add the appropriate fraction of the tool's price (i.e. breakrate times price of tool) to the final price. As was already hinted at in Zamirah's post above (Vial Molds are a real PITA in that regard, and not only because of their apparent shape).

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Could also mention that gc/drops etc have been reduced for the players who buy these items, but people would just tell us to go serp a lower mob... hmmmm bit like manuers having to make lower stuff to make money ........ irony aye :)

We do, I make only s2es but could make all but black/ice armor.

The good is - I don't loose any because of my level, and you would need less SRS/HE. :hug:

Edited by Zamirah

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Thanks all of you that have so far replied to my original post, the reasoning for prices is very helpful but I am also looking for what you the community thinks is fair buy and sell prices for the items I listed.

 

NB these should of course be prices you feel you would be willing to pay to or receive from a bot, I think it is obvious that the fair trade price to another player would fall somewhere between the two.

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Tyvm Con, no one has mentioned that fighters had to adjust what they do due to smaller drops, so we have less gc to spend.

 

 

I never really get how you compare el economics with rl economics, the dynamics that drives the two economies are soooo very different. I don't think i will pay 30k for a great sword, not when i can get it made for ings. Besides, it is not like I need to buy 1 every week, or month for that matter. :whistle:

Edited by Normtide

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Hello all,

 

I'm a rank amataur at pricing things, but here's my go at it.

 

Isla Prima rings.

 

1 ring = silver ring + polished emerald + fire essence

 

Fire essence = sulfur and two flowers. I'd say 4gc sell price and 3.5 buy price is fair. You can mix these things with fruit with little difficulty.

 

Water essence = sapphire (3gc?) + blue quartz (1.5gc) + 2 flowers (1gc). I think 4-5 is a decent buy price and 5.5 is a good sell price for these.

 

Polished Emerald = unpolished emerald (3gc?) + 2 water essences (10gc) + gem sander (10gc). Taken with tool breakage and food, 28gc buy price 32gc sell

 

Silver Bars= 8 silver ore (16gc) + 3 coal (6gc?) + 4 fire essences (14gc). With food, I'd say 42 buy and 46 sell?

 

Silver Ring = 2 silver bars (88). With food and tool breakage, 92gc buy and 94 sell?

 

Isla Prima ring = silver ring (92gc) + polished emerald (28gc) + fire essence (4gc). With food, this comes to about 126gc buy and 130gc.

 

Hmm. Doesn't really seem worth it. Oh well, rip my numbers apart please. Most of you out there have a WAY better grasp on what things cost than I do.

 

Jayim_Duinara

Member of Ozú!

 

Edit: Thread got merged so I deleted the stuff related to a different one

Edited by Jayim_Duinara

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Silly question for those that think manufacturers should not make items unless they can make them for cheap....

 

If they can't get the items for cheap and therefore don't produce any goods for you to buy, wouldn't that be worse?

 

I mean, if you have to find your own rare ingreds at a cheap price or pay the manufacturer for the price he gets on ingreds, you get something. If he does not make it, you go without.

 

Please choose. :happy:

 

I personally have no problem accepting items as part of the payment for my goods. You could use steel greaves as part of the payment for steel plate torso, but others might not want to do this and you would probably be out of luck finding good armor at the terms that some of you insist on.

 

By the way, why haven't well all been moved to EL Economy 101 already? I mean, we basically turned Holar's thread into another copy of the Economy 101 thread.

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General question if a manuer doesnt mind answering , at 28k per sword how much profit is that ?

Assuming the wolfram bars are 11K and the binding stone is 7K, that would be a little over 1K gc loss. Those are the key components and are essential in figuring the price. The other items cost less than 1K.

 

Wolfram bars are 11K because serpent stones are 5K each and it takes 10 steel longs which cost 600 each.

 

steel longs cost 600 each because steel bars cost.....wait.....50*12=600 ....+35*2=670.....+5*3.5=about 688gc....so those steel long prices are probably either an old price or based on mixing at a mining site where work can be a little more efficient.

 

steel bar prices at 50gc is practically mixing on fruit and bones semi afk or with iron ore less than 3.5gc...or FE at 3gc-3.3gc instead of 3.5gc.

 

FE being 3.5gc more because they get annoying after a time and the fail rate may have gone up in the last year. 2gc sulfur+1gc flowers+labor should allow for 3.3gc with no problem, but some alchemists decided 3.5gc would be the new price like miners decided 3.5gc for iron ore.

 

I hope this is useful enough of a layout of information for you. I made it detailed because if a person can come up with different prices for any of those things, it will indeed affect the profit margin. It takes some figuring to manage to cut costs on these things. Cutting costs too much will make for an unhappy competition. If you take FE, iron ore, steel bars etc for part of the price, it also leads to a change in the profit margin, but without unhappy competition.

 

at 28k price its about 1-2k loss. And that can be covered by rare chance.

You mean you get those? I have never made anything rare else than essences and simple swords (s2e, steel long, iron sword, iron broad sword, ti short).

 

I wonder if Holar's statistics match your assessment or if you are perhaps wrong.

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The following is unlikely to happen en masse, but as and when I get to lvl 70 manu and above, this is all im willing to do ......

 

Scenario :

 

Manuer's stop producing high end items, great swords , ti plate and upwards. They no longer keep a stock of rare ingredients.

 

When somebody needs armor / swords , they have to gather the ingredients themselves , from scratch all the way from swords to hydro / wolfram , serp stones / binding stones / efe

 

They then have to hand those items over to a manuer, who mixes the armor / sword for them.

 

They would also want to provide a 25k saving stone, just incase all thier hard work went to shit when the mix button was clicked

 

If nobody wants to do that , then no armor / swords come from me , which is not only going to help on over production of items as there will be one less manuer making them, but it will also help keep rare ings in circulation , as I wont be holding any form of stock.

 

If more and more manuers do this , it could help on quite a few levels. But its just a ramble , not a demand

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When somebody needs armor / swords , they have to gather the ingredients themselves , from scratch all the way from swords to hydro / wolfram , serp stones / binding stones / efe

 

They then have to hand those items over to a manuer, who mixes the armor / sword for them.

 

They would also want to provide a 25k saving stone, just incase all thier hard work went to shit when the mix button was clicked

 

That's exactly what I said previously and what I was doing for many months. Now some manuers refuse provide such service, but some still gladly do.

 

Everyone seems however to forget one important factor in this discussion, that is exp

 

Who said all you do should bring a profit? When you mana drain do you have any? When you train a/d or ranging with pvp do you have any?

 

As I said before - you want a profit and exp, stick to s2e's (or stop hiking prices for manu ings). No one has such comfort that they can do what pleases them, brings shitload of exp and plenty of gc's in the same time (maybe some yeti farmers only but I'm not sure about that)

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Who said all you do should bring a profit?

Not me, I suppose its the ''taking continual losses'' thats at issue

As I said before - you want a profit and exp, stick to s2e's (or stop hiking prices for manu ings). No one has such comfort that they can do what pleases them, brings shitload of exp and plenty of gc's in the same time (maybe some yeti farmers only but I'm not sure about that)

Yeh quite the opposite where manu is concerned, if you want shit loads of xp for cheap its leather helms in the manu school, although secondary to that I think turning around large amounts of s2e is also a great option to level , as long as you keep putting the GC you get from s2e/hydro back into ings for more s2e

 

Personally , for me its not about profit , never has been ( see my post in the rich list ) , but rather finding a way to lvl skills I enjoy without making record breaking losses on GC , all about wieght and balances, being diverse enough to use one skill to fund another is allways good

 

Easy come easy go ....... :D

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General question if a manuer doesnt mind answering , at 28k per sword how much profit is that ?

Assuming the wolfram bars are 11K and the binding stone is 7K, that would be a little over 1K gc loss. Those are the key components and are essential in figuring the price. The other items cost less than 1K.

 

at 28k price its about 1-2k loss. And that can be covered by rare chance.

 

I wonder if Holar's statistics match your assessment or if you are perhaps wrong.

 

Ok, I will answer it with a bit of numbers based on my bot's log. Of course I buy/sell ingreds/products in game by myself too, but I always try to keep the same prices on me and on my bot. Most my trades especially sales are performed by Pepa so lets work with his log. Following numbers are from 1/1/2008 till today:

 

The price I pay for binding stones has changed from 6,0 kgc (Jan/2008) to 7,8 kgc (now), average price I have paid 7.218 gc each and usually unable to buy as much as I need. The price I pay for wolfram bar has changed from 9,0 kgc (Jan/2008) to 11,2 kgc (now), average price I have paid 10.631 gc each and usually unable to buy as much as I need. But a bit easier to buy then bindings.

 

It makes average ingredients price of great sword = 2*10.631 + 7.218 = 28.480gc. PLUS other minor ingreds, PLUS cost of fatal mix fails or saving stones, PLUS tools breaks and food. So I would say average price of great sword WAS at least 29 kgc (it is much higher NOW) and do not mention effort to buy rare items and sell swords to players if you do not rely just on a bot.

 

During same time Pepa has sold 180 swords (lol, it is mass production of amount less then 0,5 sword per day) with average price 23.630 gc. So I lost at least (29.000-23.630)*180 = 966.600 gc just on swords sold by my bot. Of course I sold more swords so my lost is higher, but lets stick on this exact number. During this period I have made just 1 rare sword which is just now in auction with current bid of 350 kgc. So pure lost is 616 kgc, and I gained (if all produced were JS and they were not) 1800 x 180 = 324.000 of basic manufacture experience points. It is 1,90 gc per xp, is it worth?

 

May be I am just unlucky (in spite of wearing artificial cape and trying to mix on special days) and to produce just 2 rare weapons more would turn the calculation on different way but I do not think so. If I look at my general counter (which I do not believe completely in, while playing on several books/PCs) the result is 1 rare of 515 standard swords - JSOC+Cuty of the Mage and OSMN counted together.

 

And once more. Because rare ingredients are more and more difficult to buy and because the price of them is higher and higher while price of product keeps to be low, I decided to quit this "crazy carousel" and explain why. It just gives me no sense make bigger and bigger lost. I did not say I quit manu completely, I did not complain the system which always could be improved, I do not balance who is more poor (if manu/alch/PKers/harvers, Entropy or Microsoft). I accept the situation, just made decision how to behave myself under valid circumstances and declared what I did while starting this topic.

 

Declaration:

Me Holar, manufacturing rank 1, will stop deliver goods, which are significantly under their ingredients price. So please consider my bot PEPA not as an extortionist but as a way how to try to get proper prices for proper goods. I implore on other producers to join the cause if they are also unsatisfied and do not wish to support this distorted policy any longer.

 

Thats all.

Have a nice game.

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steel longs cost 600 each because steel bars cost.....wait.....50*12=600 ....+35*2=670.....+5*3.5=about 688gc....so those steel long prices are probably either an old price or based on mixing at a mining site where work can be a little more efficient.

 

practicing other skills than manufacturing helps sometimes:

Steel longs are 600 (and below), because Ogres drop them frequently.

Thats exactly the reason why wolframite is rare, because noone manus steel longs for the harvesting. (See my post above)

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steel longs cost 600 each because steel bars cost.....wait.....50*12=600 ....+35*2=670.....+5*3.5=about 688gc....so those steel long prices are probably either an old price or based on mixing at a mining site where work can be a little more efficient.

 

practicing other skills than manufacturing helps sometimes:

Steel longs are 600 (and below), because Ogres drop them frequently.

Thats exactly the reason why wolframite is rare, because noone manus steel longs for the harvesting. (See my post above)

 

And could you tell me how long it takes to get 20 steel longs as drops ? :D

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