Manufacturing strike!

[Dilly]

If the price of manu items goes up then so will the price of their ingredients. Ingredients will always be worth more than the finished item (probably because of the chance to make specials in my oppinion). I stopped selling all manu items around 2 years ago so i guess you can count me in.

 

 

Which is the total warped version of what it should be like.

 

The combined value of ingreds + labourcharges if you will should make the price for the endproduct.

Harvesters raised their iron price to 3.5gc each, silver will soon be at 2.5gc each. Bindings and enriched essences all go for well over 7k, and S2Es very frequently get sold for 900gc at a rather large scale.

 

Then how the hell can anyone expect the manufacturers to just sit back and accept their losses?

 

Of course, this is a game, people only think of themselves and want more more more, and they want it cheaper cheaper cheaper.

 

I am not gonna make anymore manu items except for my own use, or if someone provides me with the ingreds to mix it for them. I'll do my levelling by leather helmets, at least that way I will know that my gc ends up leaving the game completely, I'll get good xp nonetheless and the losses won't hurt nearly as much.

[korrode]

Korrode, logic is never irrelevant, no matter what words are used to describe it Suggestions should have at least a glimpse of logic, and also if there are two solutions to the problem, usually the simplest is the best. IMO limiting storage suggestion lacks logic and encourages people to use loopholes (storing at friends, alts, bots, hyperbags) It will not make rares cheaper nor easier available. All it will do it will slightly INCREASE rares price long term.

We simply disagree then.

 

The loopholes should be addressed.

 

Standard EL logic dictates:

 

PROBLEM: People hoard rare items.

SOLUTION: Make it much harder to hoard rare items.

 

Problem solved.

 

It's harsh i know, but it works.

How many people threatened to quit if an attirb cap was introduced? and how many actually did? jack all.

 

Just cap it, EL cant be really "fixed" without a huge amount of changes to base systems that i dont believe Radu will ever do, so if caps are the best answer within the current system; use em.

 

EDIT:

Here's some more examples for you:

 

PROBLEM: Spawns are crowded because TS pot fail makes certain creatures "best" for ages.

SOLUTION: Remove TS pot fail effect.

 

PROBLEM: Uber Def Greave is OP.

SOLUTION: Cap it's bonus and reduce it's effect chance.

 

PROBLEM: PK is unbalanced and Dragons are too easy because of pure fighter builds, and pick points buyers, having 100+ coord.

SOLUTION: Cap attributes.

 

...cutting out the problem is the EL way and within the EL system, it works... and in some cases, it truly is the best way to deal with it... granted tho in some others it's not, but it still works.

 

EDIT2: wth am i even still doing on this topic, i couldn't care less if storage of rare ingreds get capped or not.

 

bb, for real this time :>

Edited March 3, 2009 by Korrode

[Cruella]

Wrong analysis

 

PROBLEM: Prices of rare ingredients are increasing

 

WHY SUCH PROBLEM EXISTS: Demand for such ingrediends is higher than supply and shop price does not reflect current $/gc ratio, value of gc inflates

 

EFFECTS: Making high end items causes loss unless rare item is being produced, increased accumulation of rare ingredients (hoarding)

 

SOLUTION: Increase relative value of gc, update shop prices, slightly increase make rare / harv rare rates

 

 

As you can see it has nothing to do with storage limits. Releasing ALL rare ingredients that are currently in players possesion to the market would cause temporary price decrease followed by even higher increase long term.

[nathanstenzel]

If the price of manu items goes up then so will the price of their ingredients. Ingredients will always be worth more than the finished item (probably because of the chance to make specials in my oppinion). I stopped selling all manu items around 2 years ago so i guess you can count me in.

A totally disturbing reason for the rare ingreds to go up in price. I certainly hope not.

 

I know the iron ore went up to 3.5 because the harvesters didn't want to haul something heavier than gold without charging more. What does not make sense to me is that I heard the top 2 suppliers of silver decided to start charging 2.5gc for silver when it only ways 2 emu and you can easily get it in MM. In fact, if I heard things right, one of those two people happens to have a bot that buys the silver on site. Not naming names though. He does supply some good services for the game, after all. I just hope nobody else follows suite in that annoying silver price hike. Crafters and alchemists will have plenty to gripe about then. So will the fighters that want HE.....and then anyone that wants to cast a teleport spell of any sort.

 

 

Oh....and for anyone who thinks I am following Holar with my refusal to sell at a loss, no.....he is following my lead. Glad he joined me on this one. If someone wants advice on how to get people to accept higher prices, let me know. I can give you some tips on it.

[Shadow_runner]

Air Essence: Silver Ore + unpolished diamond + white asiatic lilly.

 

Silver ore 2-2.5gc ea, unpolished diamond 3-3.5gc ea + flower 0.5gc

 

+food/labour

 

Death Essence: 1 Mercury + 1 Quartz + 1 Cactus.

 

Mercury (2 cin + EE) + quartz 2gc + cactus 0.5gc

 

+food/labour/tool exposure to damage. (EFE tool set quite weak) Risk factor.

[Darwin2M]

Problem:

 

Cost of ings more than what you can sell finished product for.

Rare items not rare.

Hoarding of certain items.

 

Answer:

 

Free market economy.

 

Alternative solution:

 

US government - where government steps in and sets prices and subsidizes production of certain items (NPCs). Taxation based upon assessed value of net worth.

 

What we have in EL is not a free market economy, so perhaps we should look at other economies and take cues from them as to how to "balance" the economy.

 

While I'm sure it will be wildly popular, I don't want credit for the idea:

 

Solution:

 

Taxation

 

Each EL month, you pay a tax. Let's say the tax is 2% (just for grins... I know, I know - it should be much higher, but let's assume 2% for now). If you have 50 items in storage, 1 will disappear. If you only have 1 item in storage, there is a 2% chance it will disappear (so on average, you lose one every 4 EL years). And, of course, 2% of gc.

 

(Hyperbags could easily be taxed as well, unless you want to invoke Swiss bank accounts - but I don't think anyone's found a land called Switzerland on either c1 or c2, so for now, hyperbags could be taxed as well. Maybe some day when we can build cities someone could build a Switzerland.)

 

This addresses all problems. Stop and think about it for a minute - every problem and concern that has been raised is solved with one simple, easy solution. It is fair, as everyone (PKer, Harv'er, Alch'er, Manu'er, etc.) is affected equally and it encourages the economy (everyone needs to buy more stuff each month to replace the 2% they lost). Taxes can't be skirted with alts or hyperbags.

 

And everyone lived happily ever after.

*Please, no gifts. Just free st00f plx.*

[Boedha]

Was just wondering, (pls correct me if i'm wrong) wasn't it the manu-ers themselves who drove the prices up when they were trying very hard to buy ings - EFEs, bars and stuff? (which caused the increase in cost for manu-ing armors/weapons) It was probably the manu-ers themselves who decided to sell the finished products at that 'usual' prices anyway and now that the general population of EL is used to the hiked prices of ings, and 'usual priced' products, the manu-ers are going on a 'strike' (because of it)?

 

Somehow, the 'strike' doesn't make sense to me.

 

i know how u feel ^^

 

I think, that Cruella rather ment that for you to realize, what producer usually possess in their storage to cover "what if" orders. Not to argue about "ubber rich fighters vs. poor manuers" (notice that quotes please, it's an irony, not my opinion)

 

i lol'd, ubber rich fighters ^^ (those ubber rich fighters mostly buy their gc for $ from mixers or harvers)

 

anyway this topic lacks logic, manuers create a problem theirselves and are gonna rely on (or bother?) fighters to pay their increased prices..

instead of going to the root of the problem and stop buying ingreds at their increased price, that way manuers will have to pay less for ingreds and hopefully make a profit with weapons at around 20-22k without letting fighters pay for manuers greed.

yes i said it, greed. "gonna pay more for ingreds so more ingreds for me, ill raise price of the finished product cause of my greed and make gc from it aswell"

 

might sound a bit rude but almost all of the manuers in this topic arent thinking logical and willing to listen to other suggestions other then raising their finished product price.

Conavar stating a few times that its better to pay less for those ingreds and all you hear is random ppl shouting "yeah! increased prices!" ignoring other suggestions, selfish.

think about it:

option 1: increase finished product price, manuers happy - rest of EL is not

option 2: manuers pay less for their ingreds (and keep the armor/weapon prices as they were), manuers happy - rest of EL is too

 

SOLUTION: Increase relative value of gc, update shop prices, slightly increase make rare / harv rare rates

 

that sounds like a good solution too, as long as the prices of manu items stay as they were ^^

Edited March 3, 2009 by Boedha

[Khalai]

I think, that Cruella rather ment that for you to realize, what producer usually possess in their storage to cover "what if" orders. Not to argue about "ubber rich fighters vs. poor manuers" (notice that quotes please, it's an irony, not my opinion)

 

i lol'd, ubber rich fighters ^^ (those ubber rich fighters mostly buy their gc for $ from mixers or harvers)

 

I should have bolded this part straigh away I wasn't serious, please read more carefully next time.

[punti]

In real life initiative like this will be sanctioned by antitrust laws.

If you do not want to sell for low price, then don't.

I will always buy from people with the lowest price.

[nathanstenzel]

i lol'd, ubber rich fighters ^^ (those ubber rich fighters mostly buy their gc for $ from mixers or harvers)

 

anyway this topic lacks logic, manuers create a problem theirselves and are gonna rely on (or bother?) fighters to pay their increased prices..

instead of going to the root of the problem and stop buying ingreds at their increased price, that way manuers will have to pay less for ingreds and hopefully make a profit with weapons at around 20-22k without letting fighters pay for manuers greed.

yes i said it, greed. "gonna pay more for ingreds so more ingreds for me, ill raise price of the finished product cause of my greed and make gc from it aswell"

<CLIP>

Manufacturer's greed? You call not wanting to give you something for less than it costs us to make it greed? Please go smoke your weed elsewhere. You don't need to blow that particular smoke in here.

 

If people give me rare ingreds, I take the estimated price of those rare ingreds out of my price. Simple. No greed to it. I hate looking for the rare ingreds myself. I would just as well have the customer find all the ingreds and I charge them for an insured mix, which they are glad to pay for.

Edited March 3, 2009 by nathanstenzel

[Ateh]

Lets just hope entropys idea for improving value of the GC will have the effect desired to lower price of the base rare ingredients, that way everyone will be happy ( yeh right this is EL lol the happy ones dont post much on forums so we will never know )

 

This way the end products of Manu will be more stable GC wise, though I would think even as prices drop on the rare ings, the actual price of end products will still need to be revised by manuers so they are not repeating the same mistake of selling at ~10k+ below cost on certain high end items.

[nathanstenzel]

Lets just hope entropys idea for improving value of the GC will have the effect desired to lower price of the base rare ingredients, that way everyone will be happy ( yeh right this is EL lol the happy ones dont post much on forums so we will never know )

 

This way the end products of Manu will be more stable GC wise, though I would think even as prices drop on the rare ings, the actual price of end products will still need to be revised by manuers so they are not repeating the same mistake of selling at ~10k+ below cost on certain high end items.

Although it is hard to keep prices up to date, I have some prices actually set in my signature. Notice? If you are selling for more than 1K less than me, it is probably a bad thing.

 

I actually post my prices so the customer knows what do pay and the manufacturers know what to charge.

[Pyewacket]

Passion prices for great swords have now been increased inline with this attempt at raising gc for manuers. That includes what she is buying for as well as what she is selling for, but only to a point. Basically, I've allowed her to buy in at the "current" value of around 20k to allow some of the excess to come off the market, and set selling to 30k..big margin on profits but profit wasnt my intent, its taking something out of circulation and keeping it at a high price until either its needed or someone can afford it that was the intention. I am extremely reluctant to increase her buying price beyond this unless I see commitments ingame (pm or gossip me) from other bot owners that theyll do the same.

 

Edit: Once I know this test with the swords is working, I will turn my attention to the armours side as well.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Pyewacket

[Pyewacket]

I would quote Enriched Magic Essence at approximately 8kgc maximum. The reasoning behind this is that there should technically be a niche for those wishing to produce EME from buying enrichment stones (value approx 7-7.5k) and use them to mix the EME for resale. Whilst the buyer themselves could do this also, they dont always choose to do so (unsure why but hey, thats their business). **sidenote: EFE should be the same way also, but price of enrichment seem to always match the EFE during market fluctuations.**

[PaulB]

Death Essence: 1 Mercury + 1 Quartz + 1 Cactus.

 

Mercury (2 cin + EE) + quartz 2gc + cactus 0.5gc

 

Actually 1 mercury cost 1 cinnibar ore 1/2 EnE.

 

Formula is: Mercury extraction = 2 cinnibar ore + 1 EnE = 2 mercury (not 1)

[Cruella]

I'll not do that for our bot.

 

For swords I try not to set a difference higher that 10% between buy and sell price. Setting 33% margin has no justiffication, no matter what reasoning sits behind that. So if I buy for 20, I sell for 22, not for 30kgc.

 

Besides, "current" value of great swords is definitely nowhere near 20 kgc so I doubt your bot will buy any soon (unless impatiently awaited ings price drop appears).

 

I'm concious that at current price level my bot might not buy any swords at all and I fully accept that - we need to wait and see what Radu changes with the next update as previously announced. Any price correction now is premature.

[Chosen]

Let bots keep paying the prices they are. I'm making +50k a day just from selling swords.

[Zamirah]

Death Essence: 1 Mercury + 1 Quartz + 1 Cactus.

 

Mercury (2 cin + EE) + quartz 2gc + cactus 0.5gc

 

Actually 1 mercury cost 1 cinnibar ore 1/2 EnE.

 

Formula is: Mercury extraction = 2 cinnibar ore + 1 EnE = 2 mercury (not 1)

Yes, but high cost of food, I don't selll for less than 10gc ea.

 

Vials 1 FE, 2 quartz - the mold break easy, should cost at least 7gc.

[PaulB]

Death Essence: 1 Mercury + 1 Quartz + 1 Cactus.

 

Mercury (2 cin + EE) + quartz 2gc + cactus 0.5gc

 

Actually 1 mercury cost 1 cinnibar ore 1/2 EnE.

 

Formula is: Mercury extraction = 2 cinnibar ore + 1 EnE = 2 mercury (not 1)

Yes, but high cost of food, I don't selll for less than 10gc ea.

 

Vials 1 FE, 2 quartz - the mold break easy, should cost at least 7gc.

 

I wasn't quoting cost of food. I was just simply fixing his error in calculation of mercury formula, hence the bold part.

[Shadow_runner]

Indeed you are correct Paul. That was too produce two mercury. So should be reflected in the price.

[Boedha]

i lol'd, ubber rich fighters ^^ (those ubber rich fighters mostly buy their gc for $ from mixers or harvers)

 

anyway this topic lacks logic, manuers create a problem theirselves and are gonna rely on (or bother?) fighters to pay their increased prices..

instead of going to the root of the problem and stop buying ingreds at their increased price, that way manuers will have to pay less for ingreds and hopefully make a profit with weapons at around 20-22k without letting fighters pay for manuers greed.

yes i said it, greed. "gonna pay more for ingreds so more ingreds for me, ill raise price of the finished product cause of my greed and make gc from it aswell"

<CLIP>

Manufacturer's greed? You call not wanting to give you something for less than it costs us to make it greed? Please go smoke your weed elsewhere. You don't need to blow that particular smoke in here.

 

If people give me rare ingreds, I take the estimated price of those rare ingreds out of my price. Simple. No greed to it. I hate looking for the rare ingreds myself. I would just as well have the customer find all the ingreds and I charge them for an insured mix, which they are glad to pay for.

 

weed? i just say how it looks like to me, and you just proved that im right about most.

you guys arent even willing to look for a solution that fits both manufacturers and the people who need their service.

only willing to work on a solution that works best for you, maybe i should have added Selfish

 

the best solution for your problem has been said a few times already and keeps being ignored or overlooked.

[nathanstenzel]

i lol'd, ubber rich fighters ^^ (those ubber rich fighters mostly buy their gc for $ from mixers or harvers)

 

anyway this topic lacks logic, manuers create a problem theirselves and are gonna rely on (or bother?) fighters to pay their increased prices..

instead of going to the root of the problem and stop buying ingreds at their increased price, that way manuers will have to pay less for ingreds and hopefully make a profit with weapons at around 20-22k without letting fighters pay for manuers greed.

yes i said it, greed. "gonna pay more for ingreds so more ingreds for me, ill raise price of the finished product cause of my greed and make gc from it aswell"

<CLIP>

Manufacturer's greed? You call not wanting to give you something for less than it costs us to make it greed? Please go smoke your weed elsewhere. You don't need to blow that particular smoke in here.

 

If people give me rare ingreds, I take the estimated price of those rare ingreds out of my price. Simple. No greed to it. I hate looking for the rare ingreds myself. I would just as well have the customer find all the ingreds and I charge them for an insured mix, which they are glad to pay for.

 

weed? i just say how it looks like to me, and you just proved that im right about most.

you guys arent even willing to look for a solution that fits both manufacturers and the people who need their service.

only willing to work on a solution that works best for you, maybe i should have added Selfish

 

the best solution for your problem has been said a few times already and keeps being ignored or overlooked.

Boedha, did you even read the second paragraph?

Edited March 3, 2009 by nathanstenzel

[Boedha]

i did, should i say all manufacturers -nathan, -manuer1, -manuer2 next time?

but its great if you do that, now will the manuers look at the suggestion Conavar, Jaclaw, Korrode and me did?

[HereticEast]

what is wrong with manus focusing more on making there own ings and decreasing

manu output? this is what opec does when oil prices get too low. cutting output.

[Nahtepa]

I dont even need to bother reading every single post to know Boe has found the correct terms of 'greed' and 'selfish' rofl.

Oyea fighters are soooo rich bc they can go kill yetis and make so much profit and roll up $ and smoke if they pleased. Cmon be serious... count how many yeti spawns there are + how many high leveled players spend countless hours at 1 spawn and, considering their time schedule, will 90% be there when u log on and check if spawn open. Yes, for those who get the chance to do yeti so often, prolly are rich...but for the rest, not at all...

When manuers battle over a 'rare' stone (serp,bind,enrich) or essence, it's an auction to the highest bidder and then w/e that dumdum pays for it...it needs to be taken out on the customer...gj. If ppl would stop bein greedy and do it oldschool of "first to pm me to buy, 1st to get", things are fine. bah, im tired, cba to care about this crap.